Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I reject this conclusion on the grounds that any not taken in the gathering are avowed rebels fated to suffer wrath. Pretrib cannot fathom such a thing as the doctrine demands a conflation of the 70th week and God's wrath. This is the bedrock of the doctrine and it is false. A point of logic, for instance, dispells this; if the entire 70th week is the wrath of God as pretrib demands, and  "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." occurs within the 70th week as we all know it does, then God's wrath by His own hand is murdering His own martyrs. The acme of absurdity.

 

Many pre-70th week adherents see only the GT as being the last half of the 70th week.  Only folks like you who have an axe to grind seem to think pre-70th week folks have the whole 70th week being the literal GT.    It is the mercy of God that there will be time for those to make a choice after the removal of the righteous before the wrath part starts.  But even before the wrath of God starts, there is a lot of death and dying going on.  

But even Zephaniah is pretty clear that the righteous are hidden.... before .... the decree is issued.  Isaiah uses the same 'hidden' to describe the righteous being hidden in their chambers, which is remarkably similar to what Yeshua talked about in John 14.  And Isaiah talks about the dead being resurrected and hidden right along just like Paul does in 1 Thessalonians 4.   And Isiah is pretty clear that it happens before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.  And the only 'decree' that Zephaniah mentions that seems to be of significance and a marker of that period is the affirmation of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 that is the trigger of the 70th week.  One might also look at the scroll being handed to Yeshua in Revelation as a decree I suppose.  Either one is early on in the 70th week period.

That you reject this entire thing is a choice like anything else.  I support the idea and have not been swayed from it in 6 decades even with all the ridicule and hearing all the supposed counter arguments. And unlike folks like you who spend an inordinate amount of time attacking other views,  I waste little time trying to dispel other ideas on these things.  It is said that the best training to spot counterfeit money is to be deeply familiar with real money, and I apply the same principle here.   And there is a lot of scripture in both OT and NT that supports a pre-70th week removal.   That doesn't detract one bit that many will place their trust in Yeshua and suffer for that decision, as a result of witnessing the removal or disappearance of many.   But then, they were not redeemed to begin with when the event happened, so they have no one but themselves to blame.  They were not "left behind" as if they were somehow substandard believers.   They were not taken because they were not believers to begin with and part of the righteous.   And belief is a a dynamic concept.  Not only in who Yeshua is, but also in what the word says.   I am not sure one can separate the idea of belief in the person while at the same time not believing what that person has to say.

And even in the secular realm.  Satan has spent a considerable amount of time via New Age writers, Extra terrestrial adherents, etc in explaining away a pre-70th week position.  That seems rather curious.  Out of all the positions to spend a lot of time trying to negate, only the pre-70th week rates high enough to garner so much literary ink to negate.    Hardly a peep from these New Age / UFO writers about mid, pre-wrath, post, or amillenial positions.  They all seem unified in describing how certain "negative elements" will have to be removed early on so the earth can then move into a higher dimensional existence.   Some of those writings even describe how these folks are removed in similar language to what Paul used.   No matter, their view is that these "negative elements" have to be removed.... before ....the earth and mankind can move into a higher dimensional vibration.  Sure sounds like an attempt to explain away an early removal.

I am not equating what these folks write about as being on par with scripture.  But as an ex military person, I did learn that one way to learn what to be aware of was what the focus of the enemy is.  And a health dose of "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" as Hosea says.

And while judgement begins with the church, that doesn't mean wrath does.  Judgement is mentioned many times in scripture and is simply a separating out.  Just like sheep and goats.  I guess the key point is what they are judged on, especially since Paul says there is no longer any condemnation for those in Yeshua.   So it would seem, the only "judgement" that is referred to is a separation of those who are in Yeshua and those who are not.   As much as some try to ignore, there are non Christians in Christian fellowships.   Along the lines of.....

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

And that comports with a early removal idea also.  

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not that I don't understand; I reject your conclusions as scripturally unsound.

And you are thus in error via your observations, I can explain why we are not on the earth in a practical manner. But you can't explain why the church should be left on earth, all you can do brother is say you disagree, well I already know that........but its all good, you have a good spirit even in disagreement, not like some who desire to raise a ruckus on everything to the nth degree. 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

The speed of light is not a constant. In a vacuum it is, perhaps. There is evidence to show that it may not be.

Speed of light slowed to 38 mph.

Speed of light increased.

Fiber optic data transfer has slowed the speed of light for years.

How did I get here?

The speed of light is indeed a constant in the Natural. God created the Laws of Nature also brother.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

15 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Quote

I'll answer the first part, I live by the moto "if the Bible is silent about a subject I am to", that's why I don't believe a word of the pre-trib doctrine, it's not in the Bible. 

The Bible is not silent on the subject of the pre tribualtion rapture. First off the Bible says seek and you will find. I clearly see the secret pretribulation rapture. Here we see it in the old testament. The world won't see Him when He comes, He is not revealed. He is behind the wall showing himself through the lattice.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

Quote

As far as your statement about me supporting replacement theology, I wont even dignify that with a response. I have been on this site for 10 years, you wont find one post I have made that suggests such a thing. 

My apologies. I make it clear that after the Church is raptured and the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth during the 70th week of Daniel.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I get quite strong responses from those that think they have replaced Israel. So your strong response then appears to come from the fact that you can't see the pretrib rapture in scripture.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by The Light

[ENOCH2010]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

 

Now I have a question for you... The Bible teaches of 2 resurrections of a mass group of people yet to be. They are described in Rev.20, the first being at the second coming of Christ, and the second being 1000 years later, where in the Bible is the resurrection that accompanies the pre-trib rapture? 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Now I have a question for you... The Bible teaches of 2 resurrections of a mass group of people yet to be. They are described in Rev.20, the first being at the second coming of Christ, and the second being 1000 years later, where in the Bible is the resurrection that accompanies the pre-trib rapture? 

1 Thes 4

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, looking at the scripture below, we see that MANY of them that sleep in the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and contempt. Why is it many, and does this resurrection occur before the 1000 years or after?

Daniel 12

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Revelation Man]

Two-Resurrections....

The resurrection of the LIVING in Christ/God AND the resurrection of the DEAD or those not in Christ.

Its like the two ADVENTS of Jesus on earth, it doesn't mean Jesus has been to earth just twice. 

Trying to box God into a timeline when time has no constraints on him is kinda meaningless it it leads to a lot of misunderstandings by people.

All those raised to be with God are raised BEFORE the Dead are raised after Jesus' 1000 year reign. All those raised after the 1000 years will be the Second Resurrection. Thus 1 AND 2. God doesn't care about our time line tags. 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Revelation Man

[ENOCH2010]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

1 Thes 4

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, looking at the scripture below, we see that MANY of them that sleep in the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and contempt. Why is it many, and does this resurrection occur before the 1000 years or after?

Daniel 12

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The dead in Christ raise at the second coming, the ones raising to shame 1000 years later. I ask again where is the pre-trib resurrection? Are you going to add a resurrection prior to the one that is described in 1 Thes. 4  and Rev. 20 which are the same second coming? I ask again where is the resurrection that accompanies the pre-trib rapture doctrine? 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The dead in Christ raise at the second coming, the ones raising to shame 1000 years later. I ask again where is the pre-trib resurrection? Are you going to add a resurrection prior to the one that is described in 1 Thes. 4  and Rev. 20 which are the same second coming? I ask again where is the resurrection that accompanies the pre-trib rapture doctrine? 

What do you mean? You asked me where the pretrib resurrection was and I gave you a specific answer. The resurrection described in 1 Thes 4 is the pretribualtion rapture. Just read it, it speaks for itself.

Not sure why you are having an issue?

If 1 thes 4 is not the pre tribulation rapture, what is it?

Edited February 14, 2020 by The Light

[ENOCH2010]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

What do you mean? You asked me where the pretrib resurrection was and I gave you a specific answer. The resurrection described in 1 Thes 4 is the pretribualtion rapture. Just read it, it speaks for itself.

Not sure why you are having an issue?

If 1 thes 4 is not the pre tribulation rapture, what is it?

There are only 2 resurrections of a massive group of people remaining in the biblical timeline, the first resurrection at the second coming and the second, after the 1000 years. For the pre-trib doctrine to be true, you would have to have a resurrection pre-trib . Which the Bible is silent about, don't you think something of that importance would have at least 1 verse describing it. ( I guess not, since there isn't a verse describing the pre-trib rapture in it either)

[The Light]

28 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

There are only 2 resurrections of a massive group of people remaining in the biblical timeline, the first resurrection at the second coming and the second, after the 1000 years. For the pre-trib doctrine to be true, you would have to have a resurrection pre-trib . Which the Bible is silent about, don't you think something of that importance would have at least 1 verse describing it. ( I guess not, since there isn't a verse describing the pre-trib rapture in it either)

There are plenty of verses and you would find them if you seek, just like the word says, seek and you will find.

When you say second coming of Christ are you referring to a rapture or when Christ comes to set up his kingdom. Do you think there is a rapture of any kind?