The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[The Light]

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

I just can't see a 2000 year disconnect between John's receiving of The Revelation and the opening of the first seals.

The seals are about the 12 tribes and have nothing to do with the Church. I see a 2000 disconnect, as the Lord tells us there is a 2000 year disconnect. The Lord says after 2 days He will revive the Jews.

Hosea 6

1Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

² After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2 Peter 3

⁸ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

 

  In my thinking, for most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin (a word that I believe preterists should consider a little closer) to come to pass, and the only appropriate place to begin looking for what was about to begin to take place is in the direction of the seals.

2 Peter 3

⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

 

  Well, we all know that there's possibilities with the first five seals, and we have the testimony of history to boot.

The seals have not been opened so there is no testimony of history. If you want a testimony we have what Jesus told us in Matt 24. We see the exact same thing in Johns testimony in the 1st 5 seals.

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

  Concerning the 6th Seal, I find no evidence whatsoever in any kind of shape or form for it having been opened, nor the sounding of the trumpets, etc.

None of the seals are opened. They will be opened when God turn His attention to His chosen people. The fullness of the Gentiles will come in with the pretribulation rapture of the Church and part of Israel will have it's blindness removed.

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

  Sooo, I still do see Christ's return for the rapture as being imminent (I was also taught this as a young'un and STILL believe it!), but happening with the opening of the 6th Seal.

There is certainly a rapture at the 6th seal, but it is not the Church being raptured. It is the 12 tribes across the earth. The nation of Israel will remain on earth in a place of protection during the wrath of God.

On 6/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, not an echo said:

  Of course, this represents a major departure from the popular pre-trib view, with which I grew up.  But, my experience has been that from this basis, a lot that I couldn't get to fit now falls into place in a big way.  So much so, that I have felt compelled to share what I have seen with others.  Really, what I share I am just putting forth for other's consideration, my little contribution if you will, to all of us being able to understand a little clearer. 

 

There will be a pretrib rapture of the Church and a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth (the seed of the woman). The nation of Israel will remain on earth in a place of protection.

[ENOCH2010]

The Light, why do you separate the church from the children of Israel? 

[not an echo]

On 6/18/2020 at 3:13 PM, douggg said:

On 6/17/2020 at 3:25 PM, not an echo said:

What I am getting at concerns your interpretation that Matthew 24:30 shows both the Sign Return of Christ and His Second Coming---separated by 45 days on your chart.  It looks to me like Jesus' words concerning "all these things" in verse 33 would include the things He had just spoken of concerning the celestial phenomena of verse 29.  If verse 30 also includes His Second Coming, how does His statement, "know that it is near, even at the doors" fit?  When someone is present their return is not pending, or "near."  Seems to me that Jesus connected His present use of this parable to what He had just finished speaking about, in other words, the generation that sees "all these things" (vs. 33).

Jesus was present speaking to the disciples prior to the destruction of the temple , but his return is end times.        The "it", btw, is the end times events, which includes Jesus's return, at the end of the 7 years.

 

 

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The "it" is the events of the end, the end times.   Matthew 24:14, then shall come the end...

 

Anyway, the diciples were living in the Mt. of Olives discourse near term and beginning of the long term future of Israel.

Jesus in Matthew 24, the Olivet discourse,  was speaking to Israel, the Jews about their near term, their long term, and their end time future.         The parable of the fig tree generation is the end times generation, when Jesus will return.

Hello douggg,

Very key to me is Jesus' answering of the disciple's question, "what shall be the sign of Thy coming" (Matt. 24:3).  Seems to me that this would have been the same as asking Him, "What shall be the sign of Thy second coming?"  I understand all of Matthew 24:29-31 as representing Jesus' direct answering of this question.  Moreover, in The Revelation we see this as paralleling the event of the opening of the 6th Seal.  Then, with His parable of the fig tree, He is letting them know that when this takes place, His Second Coming will be "near, even at the doors" (Matt. 24:33).  Now, I do believe in line with what I understand you to be seeing, that the generation that witnesses (or glimpses) this sign event will also see the rise of the Antichrist and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  Just a little sidebar:  Concerning, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:34), I really don't see this parable having anything to do with Israel being again recognized as a nation in 1948.  Since that time, the word "generation" has been rethought and rethought.  I think it would be better to recognize Jesus' use of this parable here to be in connection with what He here says, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things..." (Matt. 24:33).  Further, "all these things" would include all that Jesus' spoke of from Matthew 24:15-25 with verses 29-31.  Concisely, in Matthew's account, I see verses 4-14 concerning THE CHURCH ERA, verses 15-28 concerning DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK (which will end with Christ's Second Coming/vss. 26-28), and verses 29-51 concerning THE RAPTURE EVENT that will separate the Church Era from the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  I go into more detail about this in a thread I have entitled, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse.   

When I consider Luke's parallel account of what Jesus says concerning His Sign Return, it reads like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal.  Let's look again, from Luke 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 NOW NOTICE, without skipping any verses...

 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;  for your redemption DRAWETH NIGH.

 29  And He spake to them a parable;  Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

 30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know that summer is now nigh at hand.

 31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 32  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 33  Heaven and earth shall pass away:  but My words shall not pass away.

There won't be any need to start rethinking things concerning "this generation" after the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  After His Sign Return, His Second Coming will be "near, even at the doors" (Matt. 24:33).  So, rather than 72+ years (2020 - 1948), it will be 7 years plus some months, as I see it (e.g., Rev. 9:5, 10).

Another sidebar:  Note what Jesus says after His fig tree parable in Luke's account, in 21:34-36, especially this verse:

 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

I see these words as concerning the Church.  And then, in John's account of the 6th Seal, we see the escaped Church, in chapter seven:

  9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

On 6/18/2020 at 3:13 PM, douggg said:

https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_06/1926765277_OlivetDiscourse8.jpg.75b23f50f1ff65971fe76340d75f8918.jpg

Are you saying that Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse is not part of His Olivet Discourse at all, but a different discourse that He gave "in the temple courtyard"?

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Are you saying that Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse is not part of His Olivet Discourse at all, but a different discourse that He gave "in the temple courtyard"?   

Since Jesus was not speaking from the Mt. of Olives in Luke 21, it is not the Olivet Discourse.    It is a parallel though, because it follows the same general pattern of the near term, the long term, end times future of Israel, the Jews.

"Part of" or "not part of" of the Olivet discourse is the wrong way to look at it.      Luke 21 is a parallel to the Olivet Discourse.   Luke 21 covers the same events similarly as in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.     I would not give Luke 21 it own discourse name, but just call it a parallel.

"Olivet Discourse" is just a label.    It is not a in-the-bible quoted term.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by douggg

[The Light]

17 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Light, why do you separate the church from the children of Israel? 

Because God does.

John 10

¹⁴ I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

¹⁵ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Sure, we all end up in same fold, but when does that happen? It all comes down to the harvests. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the 1st fruits of the first harvest. But that didn't work out.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

So the Gentiles become the 1st harvest and for a reason.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The twelve tribes will not be able to see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretrib rapture (pre 70th week) (pre 1st seal). The nation of Israel will not be able to see until after the wrath of God begins. God separates the outcome of the nation of Israel (the woman) from the 12 tribes across the earth (the seed of the woman).

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Everything happens in order based on the Word.

1 Cor 15

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Is this verse or a few others confusing you?

Gal 3

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

You might need to read the fine print.

Edited June 22, 2020 by The Light

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, douggg said:

Since Jesus was not speaking from the Mt. of Olives in Luke 21, it is not the Olivet Discourse.    It is a parallel though, because it follows the same general pattern of the near term, the long term, end times future of Israel, the Jews.

"Part of" or "not part of" of the Olivet discourse is the wrong way to look at it.      Luke 21 is a parallel to the Olivet Discourse.   Luke 21 covers the same events similarly as in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.     I would not give Luke 21 it own discourse name, but just call it a parallel.

"Olivet Discourse" is just a label.    It is not a in-the-bible quoted term.

Shalom, douggg.

I was reading along, and I've got to tell you that this in NONSENSE! Who says that Luke's account was not about Yeshua` speaking from the Mount of Olives (Har HaZeitiym)?! Have you even BOTHERED to look at the Greek texts of the three Synoptic Gospel accounts? There are MANY instances that are WORD-FOR-WORD the SAME when Matthew or Mark have already placed Yeshua` upon Har HaZeitiym when Luke doesn't mention it! And, before you say that Yeshua` just repeated Himself, THINK AGAIN! There were things said that would have only been said once! To say it a second time would have lost that "zing" factor, like a comedian trying to run a joke's punch line past the same group of people a second time! (And, no, I'm not trying to say that Yeshua` was attempting to be a comedian; I'm saying that He said some things that only had to be said ONCE! Said a second time would strike people as odd.)

The parallels between these three passages are FAR GREATER than you might surmise! The conclusion is simple: They all three speak of the SAME EVENTS! And, if the first two (Matthew and Mark) show that Yeshua` was on Har HaZeitiym, then so does Luke's account.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

I was reading along, and I've got to tell you that this in NONSENSE! Who says that Luke's account was not about Yeshua` speaking from the Mount of Olives (Har HaZeitiym)?! Have you even BOTHERED to look at the Greek texts of the three Synoptic Gospel accounts? There are MANY instances that are WORD-FOR-WORD the SAME when Matthew or Mark have already placed Yeshua` upon Har HaZeitiym when Luke doesn't mention it! And, before you say that Yeshua` just repeated Himself, THINK AGAIN! There were things said that would have only been said once! To say it a second time would have lost that "zing" factor, like a comedian trying to run a joke's punch line past the same group of people a second time! (And, no, I'm not trying to say that Yeshua` was attempting to be a comedian; I'm saying that He said some things that only had to be said ONCE! Said a second time would strike people as odd.)

The parallels between these three passages are FAR GREATER than you might surmise! The conclusion is simple: They all three speak of the SAME EVENTS! And, if the first two (Matthew and Mark) show that Yeshua` was on Har HaZeitiym, then so does Luke's account.

Are you saying that Jesus was on the Mt. of Olives in Luke 21 ?   The first 7 verses in Luke 21, indicates that Jesus was in the temple grounds.    In reading Luke 21:5-7 can you say who asked Jesus the two questions?    Jesus had many people addressing him as "master".   

I am not disagreeing that the events Jesus spoke of in Luke 21 are the events that Jesus spoke of in Mark 13 and Matthew 24; although there are more events found in the Olivet discourse..... such as no abomination of desolation in Luke 21; as there is in Matk 13 and Matthew 24.

 

1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Edited June 23, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Because God does.

John 10

¹⁴ I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

¹⁵ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Sure, we all end up in same fold, but when does that happen? It all comes down to the harvests. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the 1st fruits of the first harvest. But that didn't work out.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

So the Gentiles become the 1st harvest and for a reason.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Shalom, The Light.

You didn't read far enough in Romans 11! 

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (Greek: pesoosin = "they might fall")? God forbid (Greek: mee genoito! = "Never may-it-be!"): but rather through their "fall" (Greek: paraptoomati = "misstep; trespass; false step; slip up") salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS? 

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD (RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit (the wave offering) be holy, the lump (the whole mass of dough) is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (okay); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And THEY ALSO, if they abide not still in unbelief, SHALL BE GRAFFED IN: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster bush), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED (DELIVERED; RESCUED): as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Isaiah 27:9; 59:20-21; 62:11)

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, ... when I shall take away their sins." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (being the Chosen Seed of Israel), they are beloved for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (I.e., God DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts and calling! He doesn't renege on his promises!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY they also may obtain mercy! 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all!

We are all GRAFFED into that SAME OLIVE TREE!!! AND, we are to show them mery

Here's another passage of Scripture you ought to take to heart:

Ephesians 2:1-18 (KJV)

1 And you (Ephesian Gentile believers) hath he quickened (made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called "the Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 

13 But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them (children of Israel) that were nigh. 18 For through him WE BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Being a Messianic Jew, I believe that we are BOTH ONE NEW MAN! We are Jews and Gentiles worshipping God TOGETHER!

Also,

Romans 10:8-13 (KJV)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, evenin thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For ...

"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Joel 2:32)

(Also, one should understand that this passage is NOT about God's justification of an individual! This is talking about a RESCUE that will happen when our Lord Yeshua` returns!)

 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The twelve tribes will not be able to see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretrib rapture (pre 70th week) (pre 1st seal). The nation of Israel will not be able to see until after the wrath of God begins. God separates the outcome of the nation of Israel (the woman) from the 12 tribes across the earth (the seed of the woman).

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Sorry to disappoint you (although this should NOT be disappointing), but there are hundreds and thousands of Jews coming to Yeshua` as their own Messiah RIGHT NOW!!! PLEASE understand this:

God is ALREADY drawing His own people, the physical family of Yeshua`, God's Son, back to Himself! The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is made with ISRAEL!

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Everything happens in order based on the Word.

1 Cor 15

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Oops! This verse is talking about RESURRECTION! (Gotta read the WHOLE chapter, not just a verse.)

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Is this verse or a few others confusing you?

Gal 3

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

You might need to read the fine print.

 Galatians 3:16-29 (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds," as of many; but as of one, "And to thy seed," which is Christ (the Messiah). 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ (in the Messiah), the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? (He's talking to JEWS!) It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (unto the Messiah), that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`). 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (into the Messiah) have put on Christ (have put on the Messiah). 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (ONE in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua`). 29 And if ye be Christ's (if you belong to the Messiah), then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

THERE'S your "fine print!"

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

Are you saying that Jesus was on the Mt. of Olives in Luke 21 ?   The first 7 verses in Luke 21, indicates that Jesus was in the temple grounds.  

I am not disagreeing that the events Jesus spoke of in Luke 21 are the events that Jesus spoke of in Mark 13 and Matthew 24; although there are more events found in the Olivet discourse..... such as no abomination of desolation in Luke 21; as there is in Matk 13 and Matthew 24.

 

1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Shalom, douggg.

Look, the answer is quite simple: Lukas just didn't record the walk out to the Mount of Olives. Verses 1-6 DO happen within the Temple property, but the QUESTIONS and ANSWERS weren't delivered there; they happened later on the Mount of Olives! Compare to the others:

Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them,

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mark 13:1-4 (KJV)

1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him,

"Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

2 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 

4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

In both passages, the move to the mount of Olives is barely indicated in a SINGLE phrase! Luke just doesn't include one.

AND, the "abomination of desolation" IS mentioned in Luke's account:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

You all just don't want to admit that this "abomination of desolation" happened already in the First Century A.D! They all fled from Jerusalem in 68 A.D., and the desolation occurred in 70 A.D.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Light.

You didn't read far enough in Romans 11! 

Shalom Brother. I read far enough. I read it all, many times.

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Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (Greek: pesoosin = "they might fall")? God forbid (Greek: mee genoito! = "Never may-it-be!"): but rather through their "fall" (Greek: paraptoomati = "misstep; trespass; false step; slip up") salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS? 

My exact point.

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13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD (RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit (the wave offering) be holy, the lump (the whole mass of dough) is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

The twelve tribes of Israel will have 144,000 first fruits (wave offering) before the throne which guarantees a harvest of 12 tribes across the earth. (if the first fruit is holy, the lump is holy) This harvest of the 12 tribes will occur after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which will be the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

Rev 14

 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

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17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

Exactly

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20 Well (okay); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And THEY ALSO, if they abide not still in unbelief, SHALL BE GRAFFED IN: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster bush), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED (DELIVERED; RESCUED): as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Isaiah 27:9; 59:20-21; 62:11)

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, ... when I shall take away their sins." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (being the Chosen Seed of Israel), they are beloved for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (I.e., God DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts and calling! He doesn't renege on his promises!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY they also may obtain mercy! 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all!

We are all GRAFFED into that SAME OLIVE TREE!!! AND, we are to show them mery

 

Exactly we are all grafted into the same olive tree. But blindness in part happens unto Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

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Here's another passage of Scripture you ought to take to heart:

Ephesians 2:1-18 (KJV)

1 And you (Ephesian Gentile believers) hath he quickened (made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called "the Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 

13 But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them (children of Israel) that were nigh. 18 For through him WE BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Being a Messianic Jew, I believe that we are BOTH ONE NEW MAN! We are Jews and Gentiles worshipping God TOGETHER!

Exactly. That is true for those that receive the promise.

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Also,

Romans 10:8-13 (KJV)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, evenin thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For ...

"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Joel 2:32)

(Also, one should understand that this passage is NOT about God's justification of an individual! This is talking about a RESCUE that will happen when our Lord Yeshua` returns!)

Those that call on the name of the Lord will be saved. But there will be those that will not see that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah until the fullness  of the Gentiles comes in.

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Sorry to disappoint you (although this should NOT be disappointing),

I think you are missing something brother.

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but there are hundreds and thousands of Jews coming to Yeshua` as their own Messiah RIGHT NOW!!! PLEASE understand this:

God is ALREADY drawing His own people, the physical family of Yeshua`, God's Son, back to Himself! The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is made with ISRAEL!

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Yep, there are thousands and thousands of Jews coming to the knowledge that Jesus is the Messiah. And yet when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, HOW MUCH MORE WILL THE FULLNESS OF THE JEWS BE. When the 70th week of Daniel begins God will turn attention to His Chosen People. Then millions will have their eyes opened. If there are 144,000 first fruits during the 70th week of Daniel, can you imagine the harvest?

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Oops! This verse is talking about RESURRECTION! (Gotta read the WHOLE chapter, not just a verse.)

Oops! If you read the chapter, you should understand the chapter.

1 Cor 15

⁵¹ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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 Galatians 3:16-29 (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds," as of many; but as of one, "And to thy seed," which is Christ (the Messiah). 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ (in the Messiah), the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? (He's talking to JEWS!) It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (unto the Messiah), that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`). 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (into the Messiah) have put on Christ (have put on the Messiah). 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (ONE in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua`). 29 And if ye be Christ's (if you belong to the Messiah), then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

THERE'S your "fine print!"

I really don't think you understand what that other poster was getting at.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by The Light