Why I believe healing is in the atonement

[apothanein kerdos]

I did not take the time to read all the pages of this thread, so if my question has already been answered, please accept my apologies and kindly direct me to the appropriate page. ~E

Franky, you keep saying that if a person isn't healed it is because he (or whomever prayed over him) didn't have enough faith.

Since our faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, are you saying that God has given us a gift that is somehow lacking or inadequate?

Thank you,

Enchiridion

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I believe faith is believing the word of God in our heart as well as in our mind.

God says that without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Therefore, some of the responsibility for our faith must be ours.

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You need to remember that it is God who gives us this faith though.

[Guest Enchiridion]

Franky, you keep saying that if a person isn't healed it is because he (or whomever prayed over him) didn't have enough faith.

Since our faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, are you saying that God has given us a gift that is somehow lacking or inadequate?

I believe faith is believing the word of God in our heart as well as in our mind.

God says that without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

I do not disagree with this.

But I don't see the logical connection to your next statement:

Therefore, some of the responsibility for our faith must be ours.

Can you help me understand how justification by faith (which subsequently puts us in a position to please God) becomes our responsibility? Doesn't this fly in the face of Eph 2:8?

Thank you,

Enchiridion

[nebula]

I just feel that I should err on the side of over believing rather than under believing.

[apothanein kerdos]

Paul's thorn wasn't physical?

The Greek word that we get "thorn" from, and the context it's in, leaves absolutely no doubt that  it is physical.

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Every other use of the phrase "thorn in the side, or eye", is used to denote an irritation, or like, pain in the neck so to speak.

Also Paul said it was a messenger of Satan. How could a messenger be a disease?

And how does a disease buffet one?

Some translations use the word "he", in referring to paul's thorn

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Okay, let's look at the Greek.

skolops te sarki is Greek for "thorn in the flesh". Now sarx is only used to either refer to literal human flesh or the fallen human nature.

kolaphizo means to strike someone. The Greeks often used this word to refer to boxers or how they would strike people at the eye or below the eye for a knockout.

Now, putting these two together we can either go with your interperation meaning Satan was attacking the already fallen nature of Paul...which woul dmake no sense....or he was attacking Paul's flesh. Most people believe that the thorn in the flesh was actually an eye disease sent by Satan that God allowed Paul to endure. God did not heal him of this disease. Even when preaching to the Galatians, he still held this physical illness, but noted that the Galatians were so kind that if they could have plucked out their eyes for him they would have (Galatians 4:12-15).

So in 2 Corinthians we see a possible physical illness and in Galatians 4 we see a definate physical illness with the eyes...guess Paul didn't have enough faith.

[Franky67]

Now, putting these two together we can either go with your interperation meaning Satan was attacking the already fallen nature of Paul...which woul dmake no sense....

Why does this make no sense?

If God said Jesus took our infirmities, what, in the name of all that's Holy then, DOES that mean?

It has to mean something, God didn't put it in the book for nothing!

[Franky67]

Franky, you keep saying that if a person isn't healed it is because he (or whomever prayed over him) didn't have enough faith.

Since our faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, are you saying that God has given us a gift that is somehow lacking or inadequate?

I believe faith is believing the word of God in our heart as well as in our mind.

God says that without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

I do not disagree with this.

But I don't see the logical connection to your next statement:

Therefore, some of the responsibility for our faith must be ours.

Can you help me understand how justification by faith (which subsequently puts us in a position to please God) becomes our responsibility? Doesn't this fly in the face of Eph 2:8?

Thank you,

Enchiridion

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I believe Eph 2:8 is the measure of faith we receive when we make that first step toward God, and receive Jesus into our heart.

Which, I believe is a supernatural move of God in response to our accepting Him.

He gives us His Holy Spirit , and He, the Holy Spirit teaches us.

But then, God says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

That measure of faith must be nourished and fed spiritual food for it to grow.

That's what I meant by some of the responsibility being ours. We must devour His word in order to have the faith which pleases God.

God is pleased when we truly believe His word, and act on that word.

[Old Timer]

[Franky67]

I just feel that I should err on the side of over believing rather than under believing.

[apothanein kerdos]

Now, putting these two together we can either go with your interperation meaning Satan was attacking the already fallen nature of Paul...which woul dmake no sense....

Why does this make no sense?

If God said Jesus took our infirmities, what, in the name of all that's Holy then, DOES that mean?

It has to mean something, God didn't put it in the book for nothing!

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The two verses put forth debunk your interpretation of infirmities.

[Franky67]

Is God a respecter of persons?

I believe that God does nothing for His people with respect to blessings outside His Covenant, and since the cross, He does nothing except through Christ, the messenger of His covenant.

It has nothing to do with being a respecter of persons, Franky. God does as He pleases. There is a reason, for example, that God does not bless everyone with a a million dollars. In the hands of an irresponsible person, a million dollars is curse, not a blessing.

And what He pleases is all spelled out in His word.

He gives the power to make wealth to confirm His Covenant. Deut 8:18,

You work from the premise that all sickness is a curse of the law, and that is simply not true. There are cases where sickness is the product of irresponsible behavior such as overeating, sexual immorality, general neglect.

This world is suffering from the effects of the fall, God meant for Adam and Eve to live forever in the perfection, which is God Himself.

Unsaved man today lives completely in the "flesh", he makes irresponsible decisions, and then suffers the results.

So yes, all this mess we live in today is indeed caused from the fall.

God wants His redeemed to live by the direction of His Holy Spirit, which He gives to those who accept Him. He says if we walk in the Spirit, we will not carry out the desires of the flesh. Gal 5:16

In this time we, as the redeemed of Christ, are given the blessings of God's promises. If we choose to receive them. I choose to view these as the abundant life which Jesus spoke of.

Jesus, while on the earth as a mortal man, showed us, as clearly as God could show us, that God means for His redeemed to be free from sickness and disease.

Then Jesus sent out His disciples, and told them to do the same as He did, which they did.

In Acts chap 4 verse 29, 30, The word preached, and confirmed with God extending His hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Jesus. Jesus told John's messenger, tell John what you see and hear, the blind see, the lame walk, etc.

What's it like today, if a preacher does invite the Holy Spirit to his meetings, and anything happens olong the lines described above, the rest of the religeous ones eat him alive.

I'm tired of religion, tired of three songs, three points, then Luby's.

There are cases where sickness is itself a product of God's judgement. God struck the Egyptians with plagues including boils. He struck Miriam with leaprosy. He took the lives of Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit, He caused a magician to be blind for trying to buy the power of God from Peter. He caused Herod to be eaten alive by worms. There are other occasions where God used sickness and even caused death to accomplish His Will.

He doesn't put sickness on His covenant people.

Sickness and disease, despite what Hagin Jr. & Co. say, does not fall under the curse of the law. The curse of the law is death. Jesus died to redeem us from the death the law demanded.

Sickness and disease, generally speaking, are a product of the fall of man, and we have not been redeemed from the fall. We will not experience the full redemption of the fall until we are clothed with God's glory.

One of the most unfortunated blunders of the "Name it Claim it" crowd is their inability to distinguish the difference between corporate blessings, and individual blessings. Many of the blessings that God has made were to Israel as a people, and not as individuals, and none of the theological gymnastics employed the word of faith movement will change it.

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Sorry my brother, I'll continue to name His blessings, and claim them