Gideon Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Not me said: @Gideon If I might request a clarification.... Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of what you are putting forth is; That by being dead in Christ, this means, ones desires they find in themselves toward sin, these desires died on the cross with Christ. These desires are now dead, and one is to reckon these desires dead.. Am I correct in my understanding of what you are putting forth? A brother and fellow believer in Christ, Not me Thank you for your inquiry, dear friend. The Word tells us we have a physical body called the flesh, amen? Before our new birth, our carnal nature , both the good part and the bad part, is also referred to as the flesh. However, when we are born again, we are reckon ourselves dead. We are asked to believe that we are no longer in the flesh but are in the Spirit, right? We possess new natures, right now, but they are still housed in our fleshly bodies. Does this mean we will always still sin? Not at all. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we owe the flesh NOTHING. Now walking in our fleshly bodies, we are still subject to temptations. But it is critical we understand that temptation is not sin. Yielding to it is. How many children of God still operate under a cloud of condemnation as satan has convinced them they cannot truly walk in victory because of the evil things that tempt them. Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are...... without sin. So when a man puts on his new nature by faith, believing he is now a good tree, one the cannot bear bad fruit, satan comes to him with thoughts in his head that seem to be our thoughts. But they are not. Satan is fishing to get us to believe we still have a core that is NOT new, or pure or righteous. For he knows that if we can accept those thoughts as ours, we are letting unbelief as to who God tells us we are.... new creatures.... and what will be the result? Our fellowship and ability to abide in Christ is broken, and sin will eventually come to the surface. Paul addresses this in Romans 7. He tells us something we must understand if we are to walk in complete victory. It is no longer us that sin but sin that dwelleth in us, coming from our fleshly body. How can we believe we are dead and our lives are hid with Christ, that the old us really IS passed away, if our hearts still generate bad thoughts and desires? Paul said it was no more he that lived, but Christ who now lives in Him. Does Christ have bad thoughts? No way! How can a man call it all joy when he falls into diverse temptations if he accepts those evil thoughts and desires as coming from him? They come from the enemy, pure and simple and it is when we reject ownership of those thoughts, taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, that we discover unbroken abiding in Christ, with no guilt, no condemnation at all. This is what Paul referred to when he said that he kept his body under. We are spirit men, housed temporarily in fleshly bodies. When we put off our old nature by faith, believing that we are new inside, pure and holy, we discover that that holiness begins to grow from the inside out. The longer we abide in the truth of who we are in Christ, . the more apparent it becomes outwardly in spiritual fruits. We have been taught that sanctification is growing from old nature little by little to new natures. We have been wrong. The change from old man to new man happens in an instant, when we finally reckon it so. Real transforming sanctification does not start until we reckon that we ARE new creatures, with pure hearts, pure thoughts and anything that comes our way contrary to that, we stand against with our shields of faith held high, and satan's arrows never ever find their mark. Glory! I pray this helps. Gideon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Share Posted April 14, 2020 7 hours ago, Behold said: Here you go... You are not quoting the verse, so, i'll quote it for you then answer your 4 questions regarding this 1 verse. "depart from me, i never knew you". Zion, you have been falsely taught that this verse and a few others out of the entire NT, are teaching that you can lose your salvation. Brother, don't be condescending. I think, yet again, i shall just have to agree to disagree. Be blessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not me Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 514 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,196 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 3,358 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gideon said: How can we believe we are dead and our lives are hid with Christ, that the old us really IS passed away, if our hearts still generate bad thoughts and desires? Paul said it was no more he that lived, but Christ who now lives in Him. Does Christ have bad thoughts? No way! How can a man call it all joy when he falls into diverse temptations if he accepts those evil thoughts and desires as coming from him? They come from the enemy, pure and simple and it is when we reject ownership of those thoughts, taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, So I gather from the above you hold true to the idea that all those sinful thoughts we still find in us, are not of us but are planted in us by the enemy...?? Let me offer a thought; Let me propose that they are of us, and they are the thoughts of our physical bodies desire towards sin.... For as long as we live in these bodies, these bodies will want to sin...Which is the problem all believers learn by experience... Scripture says; “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death” This is Paul crying out to be freed from the desires of His physical body towards sin.. You are correct when you say scripture teaches that we died when Christ died. But this is not the death of the physical body...One is “us” the other is the body of flesh we still live in with it’s desires toward sin.. To lump the desires of the physical body towards sin with the person that died when Christ died is where I think the problem lies. We have died with Christ and as a result of that death, we died to the body of this death, as says scripture, which is our physical bodies with it’s passions and desires....But by reckoning ourselves dead with Christ by faith, this frees us from the desires of our physical body which still has it’s desire towards sin in us...This separation can only be done by faith, by the knowledge of it and the will to it.. For as you rightly are aware no amount of self effort can free one from their sins... It is faith alone that can, but faith in their death in Christ, not faith in the death of their physical bodies desire towards sin....For as long as we live in the body, this physical body of ours will try to rule and have it’s way in us... It is this constant desire towards sin in us that we are to reckon ourselves dead to.. The physical bodies desire toward sin stays very much alive in us and will remain so, as long as the body draws breath..... But it is “us” that have died, which by reckoning and believing it so, frees one from having to be obedient to those desires, so one doesn’t have to be obedient to them unless one chooses to.. For this is how one can count it all joy when one runs into trials and temptations, by reckoning themselves dead to the trials and temptations, which trials and temptations come from the lusts that come from their bodies desire towards sin, which remain and are still very much alive in us... Something to consider.. A brother and fellow believer in Christ, Not me Edited April 14, 2020 by Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Flowersun said: Can I ask....how someone,who has recieved the Holy Spirit into their heart,...deliberately turn their back on God? Made alive in Christ,born again,...deliberately turn their back on him.....to me that is incomprehensible ....? It does seem that way, but we are humans and can fall foul of PTSD and other folk's actions. If we were nailed on a cross, we would also say 'My God my God...". This is why we need each other because Yeshua managed in a vacuum, but we cannot. Edited April 14, 2020 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Not me said: So I gather from the above you hold true to the idea that all those sinful thoughts we still find in us, are not of us but are planted in us by the enemy...?? Let me offer a thought; Let me propose that they are of us, and they are the thoughts of our physical bodies desire towards sin.... For as long as we live in these bodies, these bodies will want to sin...Which is the problem all believers learn by experience... Scripture says; “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death” This is Paul crying out to be freed from the desires of His physical body towards sin.. You are correct when you say scripture teaches that we died when Christ died. But this is not the death of the physical body...One is “us” the other is the body of flesh we still live in with it’s desires toward sin.. To lump the desires of the physical body towards sin with the person that died when Christ died is where I think the problem lies. We have died with Christ and as a result of that death, we died to the body of this death, as says scripture, which is our physical bodies with it’s passions and desires....But by reckoning ourselves dead with Christ by faith, this frees us from the desires of our physical body which still has it’s desire towards sin in us...This separation can only be done by faith, by the knowledge of it and the will to it.. For as you rightly are aware no amount of self effort can free one from their sins... It is faith alone that can, but faith in their death in Christ, not faith in the death of their physical bodies desire towards sin....For as long as we live in the body, this physical body of ours will try to rule and have it’s way in us... It is this constant desire towards sin in us that we are to reckon ourselves dead to.. The physical bodies desire toward sin stays very much alive in us and will remain so, as long as the body draws breath..... But it is “us” that have died, which by reckoning and believing it so, frees one from having to be obedient to those desires, so one doesn’t have to be obedient to them unless one chooses to.. For this is how one can count it all joy when one runs into trials and temptations, by reckoning themselves dead to the trials and temptations, which trials and temptations come from the lusts that come from their bodies desire towards sin, which remain and are still very much alive in us... Something to consider.. A brother and fellow believer in Christ, Not me Let's put it in a practical way. I struggled with porn and masturbation for decades as a believer. During the day, an attractive woman is seen. the immediate pull is to lust after her. That is the temptation from satan, and as ai still reside in a body of flesh, satan pulls at the cords that previously led to sin. Prior to my visitation thirteen years ago, I would have accepted that thought as MY thought. I would feel guilty. My shield fo faith as to who I inwardly was would have been down. Chances are, the results would have been that I would let that lust. conceive and it would being forth the act of sin. The initial thought was not sin. It was a temptation to sin. Now, today, how is that different in my life? The same thought comes to let lust have it's way. Satan never stops tempting. It is what he does. He wants me to embrace that thought as MY thought, knowing that if I do, he has found a way past the shield and the armor. But this time it is different. My shield of faith is up. I am a new creature. It is no longer I who live but Christ who now lives in me. So what do I do? I resist him, steadfast in the faith. I exercise my faith, believing the thought cannot originate with me. I identify the author of the thought.... the enemy. I stand fast, and cast down and take captive every thought that is not of God. What happens? God does exactly what God has promised to do. He delivers me from the power of darkness. He causes me to take the way of escape that He always provides. Do I fall? Nope. ? If one believes that inside him, there still lurks deeper layers of sin that as of yet are undiscovered, there can be no peace, no rest. Why? There is still an unidentified traitor lurking within. It may seem outwardly that such a mentality is humble and self deprecating, but the truth is, ones eyes are still on them, not solely on Christ and what He has already accomplished. If it is no longer us that live, but Christ who now lives in us..... if we are truly dead and our life is hid with Christ in God..... if we really are no longer in the flesh and owe it nothing as Paul tells us in Romans 8, it is critical we identify the source of our thoughts. Satan uses the fact we are still in fleshly bodies to tempt us. That is all he can do. Once we understand we are not connected to our fleshly bodies with a fleshly nature, victory becomes possible. However, unril we finally understand that, there is no way we can ever walk with pure consciences towards God. We may have put on our new nature by faith, but the door behind us must be slammed shut, for if it is not, and satan sees an opening, he will work that crack until it becomes a way to get us to fall back into unbelief. and ultimately we will end up fulfilling the lusts of the flesh by sinning. Either we believe we are truly dead to sin.... all sin.... and our life is hid with Christ in God, or we do not. If we are dead, and have had our minds renewed and now have the mind of Christ, evil thoughts must..... MUST...... come from outside us, from the enemy. Resist the devil here, and he will flee from us. The result? Our victory will be assured. Our consciences will remain pure. Our rest will be real and complete. And as we abide in Him.... we find to our eternal delight that we never fulfill the lusts of the flesh and always do those things that are pleasing in His sight. That is the miracle God offers each one of us. Oh, that we might run to the Lord and believe He not only forgives us but also plants our feet on the highway of holiness. Thank you Lord! blessings, my dear friend and brother in Christ Gids Edited April 14, 2020 by Gideon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, HAZARD said: Anyone can lose their salvation if they deliberately turn their back on Christ and return to sin. Reader, Have you noticed that a Legalist always quotes a verse that is not related to something deceitful that they are trying to prove, to attempt to cause harm to real Christians? I see this so much on Christian Forums. Its truly a compulsion these people have, that is not of God. For example., if a Grace Rejector, who is a Cross rejector, is trying to ruin a real Christian Faith, by teaching the LIE that "salvation can be lost", they will will use Scriptures that have no relation to the lie they are trying to teach. Understand that to teach that you can lose a GIFT OF GOD, is to try to teach that Salvation is not a Gift, and "the gift of Righteousness" is not a Gift. So, a person who is this type of Legalist, has an incredible dislike and disregard for the Blood Of Jesus, and the Cross Of Christ. And that is why they will not accept it, and try to replace it with works, and self effort, and various scriptures they twist and misuse against the very Grace of God, itself. Edited April 14, 2020 by Behold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, *Zion* said: Brother, don't be condescending. I think, yet again, i shall just have to agree to disagree. Be blessed Really? Is it "condescending" to post the verse that you paraphrased, so that i can teach the verse? Maybe you should reconsider your POV on that one, Zion. And, i know you can't refute what i showed you with any bible verses, or even with any type of sound Logic. As its impossible for Christ to not KNOW you, if He is living inside you. And if you feel you need to disagree with this, then do so. But i will tell you that there will come a time when you have to let go of Pastors, Friends, Family, commentaries, denominations, if you are able to receive some Light from God that suddenly shows you that you are not where His Truth Resides. And that is not to say you are not a Christian.. So, don't misinterpret me. Lets say that God was able to penetrate your opinion and all the false teaching that has you preoccupied, and you realized you are not involved with much that is related to PAUL or the NT. What then? What then Zion? Thats when you find out if you are sold out to Jesus, or really just one more Sunday morning service pew warmer, and otherwise weekly Forum addict. See, if you realize thru the Light of Revelation that "justification by Faith" is TRUE......that "the gift of Righteousness" is TRUE.....and that "Salvation is a GIFT"... is true, then you will also realize that you are involved with so much that isn't...... And you'll have to leave it, to follow the TRUTH that has found you. That's how it has to BE, Zion. And This takes a strong person...and THAT is when you come to know something about yourself that God knows about you, that has not been tested yet. You want to talk a lot about "testing".....Well, when and IF, that test hits you, you'll find out what a spiritual TEST is really all about. B Edited April 14, 2020 by Behold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Share Posted April 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, Flowersun said: Can I ask....how someone,who has recieved the Holy Spirit into their heart,...deliberately turn their back on God? Made alive in Christ,born again,...deliberately turn their back on him.....to me that is incomprehensible ....? I feel your earnestness, Flowersun Honestly, I feel like we are looking at the war between the flesh and the Spirit. This truth in itself shows us that we have to make a choice between one or the other; simply because narrow is the way, and small is the gate that leads to Life. These verses come to mind: Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. For me this verse goes hand in hand with this one: Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. One thing that grace will produce in us is the fruit of repentance, knowing that we ourselves are not worthy in our own right to be called children of God, but were once all sinners. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: We are NOT held hostage. We are GIVEN THE POWER to become His sons! Hallelujah! That strongly implies a choice, which is consistent with God honouring our free will. Romans 8:1-2 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. We are sons because we are led of His Spirit, submitting both our spirits and our flesh to the Holy Spirit. BUT it is called a war for a reason. God has already overcome on our behalf, but we have been given the job of subduing our own flesh - not by ourselves, that would be impossible - but in the power and the leading of the Holy spirit. We are told to crucify our flesh, and we can do it by God's power, but we don't always want to. In fact, how frequently do we want to? The more we grow in God, the less of a fight we'll get from the flesh. It depends on the stage we are in in our respective walks with God, which is strengthened not by years of going to church, but by personal willingness of submission and obedience to God. So when we get to a certain point, and look back at all that God has taken us through, rescued us from, blessed us with, opened our eyes to, we may very well ask: why would anyone ever turn their back on the Lord? He certainly hasn't turned His back on us. But it happens. I've seen it happen. Some people, I have seen come back to Him, some I have not. It is very sad. I have seen pastors fall away, my friend. People I thought towers of the faith. God's grace and mercy will be there, if they truly repent and seek Him once again. We can pray for the, of course. And it's shakings like these that may do the trick. God can use anything. But ultimately it's their decision to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 79 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,177 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 826 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/04/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Flowersun said: Can I ask....how someone,who has recieved the Holy Spirit into their heart,...deliberately turn their back on God? Made alive in Christ,born again,...deliberately turn their back on him.....to me that is incomprehensible ....? We are warned against the deceitfulness of sin, for it slowly, over time hardens hearts. Many have started out in faith, but in the end will have nothing more than a head knowledge of the truth. The heart was not guarded, the warnings were not heeded, and place was given to the devil to turn their hearts away from God. Why are warnings, exhortations, rebukes even a part of the Bible? If there is zero danger, why even mention what is not a possibility? Why tell the saints that IF we do those things, we will never fall? Why be given armor? What need to we have for a shield if no matter what, in the end, we will end up saved? Why mention that it is he that endures to the end will be saved? What possible reason would God have to include that in the Bible other than to bring a false fear, unless of course, there is a reason to be on guard? blessings, Gids 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted April 14, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.47 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted April 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gideon said: We are warned against the deceitfulness of sin, for it slowly, over time hardens hearts. Many have started out in faith, but in the end will have nothing more than a head knowledge of the truth. The heart was not guarded, the warnings were not heeded, and place was given to the devil to turn their hearts away from God. Why are warnings, exhortations, rebukes even a part of the Bible? If there is zero danger, why even mention what is not a possibility? Why tell the saints that IF we do those things, we will never fall? Why be given armor? What need to we have for a shield if no matter what, in the end, we will end up saved? Why mention that it is he that endures to the end will be saved? What possible reason would God have to include that in the Bible other than to bring a false fear, unless of course, there is a reason to be on guard? blessings, Gids Are you saying here (in red) that a born again saint will lose salvation if not doing what you say? This is a yes or no type question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts