Your closest friendnt Posted April 11, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 11, 2020 10 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said: Now my short answers: On the two texts in Peter the choices are: 1. Jesus preached to the unsaved through Noah while he was building the arch. least likely interpretation. 2. Jesus preached to the unsaved in the grave and they may have gotten saved. I would not depend on this. 3. Jesus announced his victory on the Cross to those in paradise who then were raised from the dead with him. Matthew 27:51-53 [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Sometime after that Jesus lead them to Heaven where paradise was then moved to. Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV) 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The above two texts shows that before the Resurrection of Jesus paradise was in the grave. The basic belief back then was that there were two places in the grave. One for the Righteous and the other for those who did not figure it all out to follow God. The two texts below shows that Paradise was in Heaven after the Resurrection of Jesus. The transition being Eph 4:8 2 Corinthians 12:4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Revelation 2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. You are not well informed... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted April 11, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,380 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 11, 2020 18 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said: Hello All, I wanted to ask your opinion on what your thoughts concerning these passages: 1 Peter 4:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 5:5 King James Version (KJV) 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Why did Jesus preach to them that were already dead? What does it mean "to live according to God in the spirit"? What does it mean that the "spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus?" What are your thoughts as to the meaning of these passages? Is there hope for those who are dead? You may get a better understanding looking at the different Greek words for "dead", and applying the correct meaning to the above scriptures. Also, study 1 John 5: 16 and follow your concordance about the destruction of the flesh to save the soul. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted April 11, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted April 11, 2020 18 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said: Hello All, I wanted to ask your opinion on what your thoughts concerning these passages: 1 Peter 4:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 5:5 King James Version (KJV) 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Why did Jesus preach to them that were already dead? What does it mean "to live according to God in the spirit"? What does it mean that the "spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus?" What are your thoughts as to the meaning of these passages? Is there hope for those who are dead? concerning 1 Corinthians 5:5 Contemporary English Version You must then hand that man over to Satan. His body will be destroyed, but his spirit will be saved when the Lord Jesus returns. GOD'S WORD Translation hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord. The translation that the body is destroyed favors Calvinism. The translation that one's sin nature be destroyed makes no sense. Because, Satan and the Flesh are against God. Satan would not want to destroy our sin nature. I think the best interpretation is this Man was shunned out of the Church so that Satan could torture him. Maybe, the man would come back to his senses and repent like the Prodigal Son. We know from Job that God can give Satan permission to torture one's body. James 1:13-15 King James Version (KJV) 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Corinthians 5:5 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS) 3-5 I know I am not with you physically but I am with you in spirit, and I assure you as solemnly as if I were actually present before your assembly that I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done this thing, and I do this with full divine authority. My judgment is this: that the man should be left to the mercy of Satan so that while his body will experience the destructive powers of sin his spirit may yet be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Another interpretation that is often overlooked is Satan simply mean adversary. It is possible he did in fact repent. But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure -- not to put it too severely -- to you all. For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. (2 Corinthians 2:5-8 RSV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted April 11, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted April 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: You are not well informed... explain yourself, I am always willing to learn. I have very limited time at the computer nowadays due to being a care giver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted April 11, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted April 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: You may get a better understanding looking at the different Greek words for "dead", and applying the correct meaning to the above scriptures. Also, study 1 John 5: 16 and follow your concordance about the destruction of the flesh to save the soul. 1 John 5 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS) Only real faith in Christ as God’s son can make a man confident, obedient and loving 5 Everyone who really believes that Jesus is the Christ proves himself one of God’s family. The man who loves the Father cannot help loving the Father’s own Son. 2-5 The test of the genuineness of our love for God’s family lies in this question—do we love God himself and do we obey his commands? For loving God means obeying his commands, and these commands of his are not burdensome, for God’s “heredity” within us will always conquer the world outside us. In fact, this faith of ours is the only way in which the world has been conquered. For who could ever be said to conquer the world, in the true sense, except the man who really believes that Jesus is God’s Son? 6-12 Jesus Christ himself is the one who came by water and by blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. The Spirit bears witness to this, for the Spirit is the truth. The witness therefore is a triple one—the Spirit in our own hearts, the signs of the water of baptism and the blood of atonement—and they all say the same thing. If we are prepared to accept human testimony, God’s own testimony concerning his own Son is surely infinitely more valuable. The man who really believes in the Son of God will find God’s testimony in his own heart. The man who will not believe God is making him out to be a liar, because he is deliberately refusing to accept the testimony that God has given concerning his own Son. This is, that God has given men eternal life and this real life is to be found only in his Son. It follows naturally that any man who has genuine contact with Christ has this life; and if he has not, then he does not possess this life at all. 13 I have written like this to you who already believe in the name of God’s Son so that you may be quite sure that, here and now, you possess eternal life. 14-15 We have such confidence in him that we are certain that he hears every request that is made in accord with his own plan. And since we know that he invariably gives his attention to our prayers, whatever they are about, we can be quite sure that our prayers will be answered. Help each other to live without sin 16-17 If any of you should see his brother committing a sin (I don’t mean deliberately turning his back on God and embracing evil), he should pray to God for him and secure fresh life for the sinner. It is possible to commit sin that is a deliberate embracing of evil and that leads to spiritual death—that is not the sort of sin I have in mind when I recommend prayer for the sinner. Every failure to obey God’s laws is sin, of course, but there is sin that does not preclude repentance and forgiveness. Our certain knowledge 18 We know that the true child of God does not sin, he is in the charge of God’s own Son and the evil one must keep his distance. 19-20 We know that we ourselves are children of God, and we also know that the world around us is under the power of the evil one. We know too that the Son of God has actually come to this world, and has shown us the way to know the one who is true. We know that our real life is in the true one, and in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the real God and this is real, eternal life. 21 But be on your guard, my dear children, against every false god! JOHN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted April 12, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2020 14 hours ago, missmuffet said: Please show me scripture that those were the imprisoned spirits Jesus spoke to after He was crucified. "in which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were unbelieving, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah," AKA the watchers or 'angels that sinned' and are in Tartarus according to Peter. The LXX is pretty clear. Your protestant canon may be not so clear... it is hard to study when Luther and the pastor say you will go to hell for reading the LXX or apocrypha. Some of the early church fathers were quite firm about it all like Peter. But then, you will probably go to hell for reading them and the inter-testament books of which there are hundreds. So we are stuck and your question is well meaning and tongue in cheek... Such are the wiles of the fallen sons of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted April 12, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2020 8 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said: explain yourself, I am always willing to learn. I have very limited time at the computer nowadays due to being a care giver. I am glad for your response...and I should consider your request for time.... I am not ready to write something in a few words ...I need some time to manage my response...get back to you...soon... God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted April 12, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2020 8 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said: explain yourself, I am always willing to learn. I have very limited time at the computer nowadays due to being a care giver. I have study the ancient Greek religion...and their beliefs about after life...and how it prepares them to be ready...fertile soil for the seed of the Gospel... The main frame was that even thought they had the choice to worship and dedicate them selves to the God of their choice, usually the God their city was dedicated to...or and at the same time the God of their trade... In all those circumstances they all had one thing in common, the were separated from their Gods at the time of their death... Their Gods were only their Gods while they were alive.... At the time of their death they all descended to the place of the dead by default.... Jesus correctly call it Hades...the same as the Greeks and the same as the Romans... Hades was the strongest God of all the other Gods...and he choose the Kingdom of the underworld... Everyone on earth was his by default... The other Gods did not have a right to have a place in the place of the dead ...in Hades...for their devotees... In Hades the good and the violent were separated just like in our prisons.... Mind you...no one was judge by God...only by the powers who ruled the place...as how the dead were sorted out... This is very important because God had chosen before the foundation of the earth that the Gospel should be preach to the Greeks and Romans because of their knowledge of the life after death... These Nations were ready to welcome the good news of the Gospel which came with the promise of the new Heavenly Inheritance...the ascending one...and also came with the good news that their ancestors were given the opportunity to hear the Gospel by Christ Jesus the author of Life the Redeemer... The good news it was that their ancestors had the opportunity to hear the Gospel before them, and believe and be saved and be given the remission of their sins and the eternal life when Jesus preach the Gospel to them right after the Cross...to the Bossom of Abraham which was set apart from all the other Nations of the world, and then to the rest of the world...Jesus died for all, everyone has the God-given right to hear that his sins are forgiven in the name of Jesus... Jesus had not died yet when they were alive and or they did not had the chance to hear the Gospel when they were in the body, therefore their only opportunity is to hear the Gospel while out of the body... They were saved by faith the same for us and everyone else who is saved by faith, by grace through the redemptive work of the Cross... The Greeks and the Romans they did not want to separate from their families in their after life...that could be an obstacle in believing the Gospel...or a grievance, but when they hear that their ancestors had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and believe and taken by Jesus out of Hades in his Heavenly dwelling place...they are given the chance to be with them in the after life if they believe... I will follow up with scriptures and events that took place...in the prophets, Psalms, the other books in the Bible...and the Gospels in the New Testament... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted April 12, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted April 12, 2020 17 hours ago, missmuffet said: Please show me scripture that those were the imprisoned spirits Jesus spoke to after He was crucified. 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; " For it was not, as some suppose, the very Essence of the Word that was changed, and was circumcised, because it is incapable of alteration or change. For the Saviour Himself says, 'Behold, behold, it is I, and I change not Malachi 3:6,' while Paul writes: 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and for ever Hebrews 13:8.' But in the Body which was circumcised, and carried, and ate and drank, and was weary, and was nailed on the tree and suffered, there was the impassible and incorporeal Word of God. This Body it was that was laid in a grave, when the Word had left it, yet was not parted from it, to preach, as Peter says, also to the spirits in prison 1 Peter 3:19 . 6. And this above all shows the foolishness of those who say that the Word was changed into bones and flesh. For if this had been so, there were no need of a tomb. For the Body would have gone by itself to preach to the spirits in Hades. But as it was, He Himself went to preach, while the Body Joseph wrapped in a linen cloth, and laid it away at Golgotha. Mark 15:46 And so it is shown to all that the Body was not the Word, but Body of the Word. And it was this that Thomas handled when it had risen from the dead, and saw in it the print of the nails, which the Word Himself had undergone, seeing them fixed in His own Body, and though able to prevent it, did not do so." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806059.htm "2. After having said that Christ was put to death in the flesh, and quickened in the spirit, the apostle immediately went on to say: in which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were unbelieving, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water; thereafter he added the words: which baptism also now by a like figure has saved you. 1 Peter 3:18-21 This, therefore, is felt by me to be difficult. If the Lord when He died preached in hell to spirits in prison, why were those who continued unbelieving while the ark was a preparing the only ones counted worthy of this favour, namely, the Lord's descending into hell? For in the ages between the time of Noah and the passion of Christ, there died many thousands of so many nations whom He might have found in hell. I do not, of course, speak here of those who in that period of time had believed in God, as, e.g. the prophets and patriarchs of Abraham's line, or, going farther back, Noah himself and his house, who had been saved by water (excepting perhaps the one son, who afterwards was rejected), and, in addition to these, all others outside of the posterity of Jacob who were believers in God, such as Job, the citizens of Nineveh, and any others, whether mentioned in Scripture or existing unknown to us in the vast human family at any time. I speak only of those many thousands of men who, ignorant of God and devoted to the worship of devils or of idols, had passed out of this life from the time of Noah to the passion of Christ. How was it that Christ, finding these in hell, did not preach to them, but preached only to those who were unbelieving in the days of Noah when the ark was a preparing? Or if he preached to all, why has Peter mentioned only these, and passed over the innumerable multitude of others? ... 16. Those who have inferred from the words, He preached to the spirits in prison, that Peter held the opinion which perplexes you, seem to me to have been drawn to this interpretation by imagining that the term spirits could not be applied to designate souls which were at that time still in the bodies of men, and which, being shut up in the darkness of ignorance, were, so to speak, in prison,— a prison such as that from which the Psalmist sought deliverance in the prayer, Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise Your name; which is in another place called the shadow of death, from which deliverance was granted, not certainly in hell, but in this world, to those of whom it is written, They that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them has the light shined. Isaiah 9:2 But to the men of Noah's time the gospel was preached in vain, because they believed not when God's long suffering waited for them during the many years in which the ark was being built (for the building of the ark was itself in a certain sense a preaching of mercy); even as now men similar to them are unbelieving, who, to use the same figure, are shut up in the darkness of ignorance as in a prison, beholding in vain the Church which is being built up throughout the world, while judgment is impending, as the flood was by which at that time all the unbelieving perished; for the Lord says: As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man; they did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26-27 But because that transaction was also a type of a future event, that flood was a type both of baptism to believers and of destruction to unbelievers, as in that figure in which, not by a transaction but by words, two things are predicted concerning Christ, when He is represented in Scripture as a stone which was destined to be both to unbelievers a stone of stumbling, and to believers a foundation-stone. Occasionally, however, also in the same figure, whether it be in the form of a typical event or of a parable, two things are used to represent one, as believers were represented both by the timbers of which the ark was built and by the eight souls saved in the ark, and as in the gospel similitude of the sheepfold Christ is both the shepherd and the door. John 10:1-2 ... 18. The words of Scripture which are under consideration seem to me of themselves to make this sufficiently plain to those who carefully attend to them: For Christ has died once for our sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit: in which also He came and preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were unbelieving, when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing. The order of the words is now, I suppose, carefully noted by you: Christ being put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit; in which spirit He came and preached also to those spirits who had once in the days of Noah refused to believe His word; since before He came in the flesh to die for us, which He did once, He often came in the spirit, to whom He would, by visions instructing them as He would, coming to them assuredly in the same spirit in which He was quickened when He was put to death in the flesh in His passion. Now what does His being quickened in the spirit mean if not this, that the same flesh in which alone He had experienced death rose from the dead by the quickening spirit? " http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102164.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted April 12, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted April 12, 2020 4 hours ago, Justin Adams said: "in which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were unbelieving, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah," AKA the watchers or 'angels that sinned' and are in Tartarus according to Peter. The LXX is pretty clear. Your protestant canon may be not so clear... it is hard to study when Luther and the pastor say you will go to hell for reading the LXX or apocrypha. Some of the early church fathers were quite firm about it all like Peter. But then, you will probably go to hell for reading them and the inter-testament books of which there are hundreds. So we are stuck and your question is well meaning and tongue in cheek... Such are the wiles of the fallen sons of God. My favorite book among those is the History of Susanna. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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