Weddings of Ancient Israel.

[Guest shiloh357]

"Tribulation" and "celebration" are two things that will occur simultaneously.

Exactly Keith!! Man you are on!! What we have are two theaters, if you will, where two different things are happening at the same time. We are in heaven celebrating the Wedding and Coronation of the Messiah. The second theater is the seven year tribulation.

[Keith]

"Tribulation" and "celebration" are two things that will occur simultaneously.

Exactly Keith!! Man you are on!! What we have are two theaters, if you will, where two different things are happening at the same time. We are in heaven celebrating the Wedding and Coronation of the Messiah. The second theater is the seven year tribulation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Count me in for the Romance film in the first theatre on this one! I'm not into the Action/Thriller/Horror/Suspense film that will be going on in the second theatre!

[Keith]

"Tribulation" and "celebration" are two things that will occur simultaneously.

Exactly Keith!! Man you are on!! What we have are two theaters, if you will, where two different things are happening at the same time. We are in heaven celebrating the Wedding and Coronation of the Messiah. The second theater is the seven year tribulation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Selfishly, I have to say I'm really happy about this. If the Rapture occurs in my lifetime (probable), I always thought I would be jealous that I wouldn't get to experience heaven before the New Jerusalem. But then I understood this piece of the puzzle, knowing that I would get to experience heaven and don't feel jealous anymore! lol

[nebula]

"Tribulation" and "celebration" are two things that will occur simultaneously.

Exactly Keith!! Man you are on!! What we have are two theaters, if you will, where two different things are happening at the same time. We are in heaven celebrating the Wedding and Coronation of the Messiah. The second theater is the seven year tribulation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought you didn't believe in pre-Trib.

I confoos-ed now.

[Guest shiloh357]

"Tribulation" and "celebration" are two things that will occur simultaneously.

Exactly Keith!! Man you are on!! What we have are two theaters, if you will, where two different things are happening at the same time. We are in heaven celebrating the Wedding and Coronation of the Messiah. The second theater is the seven year tribulation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought you didn't believe in pre-Trib.

I confoos-ed now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the longest time, I didn't. Please, don't let it confuse you.

You see, I had the hardest time dealing with the issues that Rosh Hashannah addresses without the Rapture. I was constantly running into problems dealing with the coronation of the Messiah, and the Wedding of the Messiah.

Granted, I am open to being wrong, Neb. My previous view (which is still a possibility) was that Rosh Hashannah was the return of the Messiah, Day of Atonement was Judgement, and that the Messiah would build His new Temple on Succot. In my previous view, there was no rapture at all, or at best a post trib view of the rapture. My previous view left no opportunity for the wedding and coronation of the Messiah, which are two of the cardinal themes of the Festival, not to mention that it is also a day of introspection and preparation for the day of judgement.

Without the coronation and wedding of the Messiah, I had no explanation for the purpose of the rapture at all.

I am not a prophecy buff per se. I don't get into Bible prophecy all that much for exactly this reason. It is still somewhat speculative. I especially hate it when people try to identify the anti-Christ. However the Festivals are prophetic, and some study of the Festivals in the light of prophecy is necessary to fully understand them.

[sail2awe]

I have always had a problem with this subject. The subject of our present day gentile church <which is His body> being the same as the bride, being under covenant relation as were Israel. Please look at the probem I have with this. I have never found anyone to discuss all the ins and outs of this great subject. Here are a few items for consideration:

Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives,

<the contrast>

even as Christ also loved the church

The charge laid against Israel, however, is that they proved unfaithful to their marriage vow, Ezekiel likened them to "a wife that committeth adultery" (Ezek. 16:32) and says that Israel will be judged "as a woman that breaketh wedlock" (Ezek. 16:38). The phrase, which has become common in modern matrimonial lawsuits, "breach of promise", is used by God of Israel in Numbers 14:34; and divorcement is employed by Jeremiah to set forth this people's unhappy position:

"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? .

Turn O backsliding children saith the Lord: for I am married unto you" (Jer. 3:1,14).

Isaiah speaks of divorcement saying:

"Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away?" (Isa. 50:1).

The same Isaiah has some glowing words to say regarding the ultimate restoration of this wayward people:

"Thou shaft no more be termed Forsaken: neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shaft be called Hephzibah and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married" (Isa. 62:4).

The prophet Hosea, is the prophet of the interval between the setting aside of Israel and of their restoration. In Chapter one, he has three children bearing prophetic names:

Jezreel. "Scattering" and also "Sowing".

Lo-ruhamah. "Not having obtained mercy."

Lo-ammi. "Not My people."

In Chapter two the prophet continues, "she is not My wife, neither am I her husband" but at the close, all is reversed, all is restored:

"I will betroth thee unto Me for ever".

"I will sow (Jezreel) her unto Me in the earth, and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy: and I will say unto them which were not My people, Thou art My people: and they shall say, Thou art my God" (2:23).

Chapter three speaks of the long waiting period of Israel's divorcement: "Thou shalt abide for Me many days...for the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a Prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, an without an ephod, and without teraphim."

By OT standards, it is stated plainly that Israel shall be restored in betrothal to the Lord once again. This presents a huge problem to view the now present gentile church, called His body, as being a replacement for Israel. At least it is a problem for me to assert it. I would be asserting this claim in light of words such as All Israel shall be saved, and i shall remember her iniquity no more, and I will betroth thee unto Me for ever.

Let us move forward to Acts twenty-eight, where Israel's hope is suspended, 'the Salvation of God is sent to the gentiles' <which we find is the church in Paul's next letter>, as Israel's long period of blindness and wandering commenced, and where Israel entered into her long period of divorcement.

Why do I say Israel entered into divorcement?

This later thought is implicit in the word translated "departed" in verse 25 which should be rendered "dismissed" for the word is passive. This word apoluo had a distinct meaning, and one that bears closely upon the divorcement of Israel in Acts twenty-eight. Here are the first occurrences <and standard> of this Greek word in the N.T.

"He was minded to put her away privily".

"Whosoever shall put away his wife".

"Shall marry her that is divorced" (Matt. 1:19, 5:31,32).

The predicted "Lo Ammi condition of Hosea one commences here, the long night of Israel's exile begins here, and the new Dispensation of the grace of God to the Gentiles begins here. The Bride of the Lamb must be distinguished from the national restoration of Israel, set forth in the symbol of a wife divorced, then taken back forgiven and blessed. The Revelation is particularly concerned with a believing, overcoming remnant, and it is this overcoming remnant out of Israel that is depicted under the figure of a Bride. While this distinction must be observed, some expositors have attempted to make a distinction between "wife" of Revelation nineteen and the "bride" of Revelation twenty-one and twenty-two. Restored Israel, as the wife once divorced and at last taken back again is not the subject of the book of the Revelation. Restored Israel as such, has no place in the heavenly city, that is reserved for the heavenly calling of the kingdom. Abraham had the land as an assured inheritance but as an overcomer, he looked higher, and waited for the heavenly city. In both Revelation nineteen and twenty one it is the "Lamb" who is the Bridegroom.

For Paul to introduce that "The Body" must be at the same time "The Bride" by reason of what is taught in Ephesians five takes everything Paul said in the first 3 chapters as would prove to be unwarrantable exaggerations, if after all that is written in Ephesians one to three, this Church should turn out to be a part of the hope of Israel or the promise made to Abraham.

First, it is a matter of demonstrable truth that the Church of the Mystery is called "The Body" of which Christ is the Head. Secondly, the statement made by Paul as to the exclusive character of this high calling, places the church in the heavenly places while Israel is ever on earth.

Some have pointed out that the Church is feminine, and that the pronouns in Ephesians 5:25, 27 should be translated "her" and "she" instead of "it" thereby making it clear that the Church is "the bride". This, however, is just sheer foolishness, or trading upon foolishness.

Gender in grammar is not the same as sex.

Does anyone imagine that because la table in French is "feminine" it has the remotest allusion to sex? We need not, however, go outside the Greek of Ephesians five itself to demonstrate how utterly false the argument is that would speak of the Church as "she".

Kephale "Head" is feminine. Is Christ, the Bridegroom, therefore a female?

Akatharsia "uncleanness" is feminine. Do we therefore teach that this is impossible for a man to exhibit or fall into? Basileia "kingdom" is feminine, rutis "wrinkle" is feminine, sarx "flesh" is feminine, and so on. Nothing concerning the calling of the Church can be made out of the fact that the word ekklesia is in the feminine gender.

Does Ephesians five say that the Church is the bride, therefore wives should act in accordance with the fact? The answer is No, it draws its power of appeal, from the fact that these "wives" were by grace members of the Body."

"He is the Saviour of the Body" (Eph. 5:23).

"We are members of His Body" (Eph. 5:30).

"No man hateth his own flesh" (Eph. 5:29).

One further point. Eph 4:13, 'Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ'.

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man who is the bride?

Lets look closer:

perfect = teleios = complete, full grown

man = anēr = husband and is so translated five times in Eph 5.

First occurrance:

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband <anēr>of Mary...

Second:

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband <anēr>...

till we all come...unto a full grown husband who is the bride?

The language, and the testimony are suspiciously absent which would give support to our gentile church replacing Israel. The Ephesian church looks forward to an blessings in the heavenly places with Christ. This in contrast against Israel, who is ever spoken of as blessed on earth, and betrothed to the Lord in the future.

See my problem? We have lots of 'thus saith the Lord' statements in the OT regarding Israel who is the bride. We have zero 'thus saith the Lord' verses stating the gentile body called the church is the bride, and certainly none saying this gentile church would be blessed apart from Israel's blessings until after Acts. Acts, which bears the words of divorce concerning her. We are then introduced to what is called the mystery and said not to be a secret hid in the Bible, but 'hid from ages and from generations'.

I realize this post is shocking, I do, but I am not making it up am I? It does say in the OT what I quoted it as saying, right? And also, the NT quotes are accurate, right?

Forgive me if I have upset any of you here. I am just a lowly Bible student, setting my affections on things above, not on things on the earth, For I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God.

Edited August 15, 2005 by sail2awe

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Sail,

Here is your answer.

1Co

[M45510G1C]

Also Gal 3:39

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[sail2awe]

Dr Luke,

First, thank you for looking into this with me. Please forgive the length, lots at stake in this understanding imo, and I still don't understand this yet. brings several questions to mind, if you or anyone can help reconcile the differences, that would be a tremendous help. Let me explain why and bring forth some issues:

Are we in agreement that in the OT, Israel is the only called out nation of covenant, she is likened as a wife of devorce, and a bride to be, her relationship to the Lord is as that of marriage? And in Revelation?

Can we also agree that Israel's blessing is in the earth, and therein lies the hope of their calling?

Re; Marriage supper, is it Israel, the sheep of the OT, and specifically the overcomers of Rev 2 and 3 who are in view?

If I understand correctly, you are saying everyone is the bride. Am I getting that right?

If both Israel and Gentiles are both the bride, are you saying we gentiles are really spiritual Israel?

Are the priests who reign with Christ the bride, if so, who shall be subject under them?

Who are the guest at the wedding?

not to mention how rude it would be to give an inviation to the bride, Rev 19:7 says the bride is already present, v 9 continues, 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God'.

This seems to suggest more than one group? considering we have priests reigning 'on the earth' Rev 5:10, the blessed guests, the marriage supper, the bride of the Lamb. Possibly even two spheres of activity, earthly and heavenly. Of that city, called the bride, the Lambs wife we find it has the names of the apostes, the names of the tribes and comes to the earth:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Abraham was appearently showed this city:

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I just wanted to bring into view this heavenly city is the holy Jerusalem, and bears the mark of Abraham, covenant promise, and strictly Hebrew in charactor.

The Verses You Shared:

In looking to the chapters in which these verses lie, and it seems to me that the subject is written to the Jews, reiterating one of Paul's messages of reinforcement they are one body who "is joined unto the Lord" and as Jews, reminded of what Peter said, "who am I that I should w/stand God", that being one body together unto the Lord, that the spirit of so doing "is one spirit". Paul is showing them of what sort of place Corinth is, that they should not engage in various carnal acts that were prevelent there. And it was really really pagan pagan bad at Corinth. In this context, marriage is discussed with the Jews. There is no indication this portion of the letter was written for the gentiles, recalling it is written to the Jew first, then to the gentile. Thus NT structure of Acts period letters alternate the addressee, Jew first, then Gentile.

Lets review that Paul is speaking to the Jews here, that they not go to law against one another.

It begins before ch6, supporting clear distinctions - lets just get one verse, as the remainder flow into ch6:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

< Gentiles had no law as the one mentioned next>

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1Co 6:2 the world shall be judged by you

Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? <only Israel had angelic contact and message>

1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments ... in the church. <of course here, the church is the synagogue>

1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame...between his brethren?

1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. <These are Jews only here>

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Paul says the same thing in Rom 12:5, So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

<These Jews here are not, as far as I can tell, the same as being the church which is His body, who has blessings in the heavenly places, far above all that Paul writes to after Acts are they? What do you think?>

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. <Paul is telling these Jews something of their relationship to the Pagan gentile believers. Remember, the Jews are having to do alot of changing to accept thier position changing to allow gentiles to know of what they consider thier God. Appearently, they were worst than the gentiles were, so these were no means using law for what is righteous, but against one another for gain>

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. <HE JOINED-IS ONE SPIRIT. that they are joined to the Lord in one spirit and one body, being 'members in particular' <1Co 12:27>. That is not the HS here, it is the spirit of those joined together>

Paul then gives a discourse which continues to the following ch., giving the summation here, reminds these Jews of their relationship and future promise to be again betrothed unto the Lord:

1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Referrencing:

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Deu 22:19 ...she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

Moving forward there are 3 things I want to look at:

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

1Co 7:24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

I believe that the words hope and calling are intiment in their relation:

during Acts, the Jew first:

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling

hope of Israel <various places>

after Acts, one body

The eyes of your understanding must first be enlightened <Eph1.18>

Clearly the question is raised, can the church spoken of in the prison ministry, who will be seated with Chirst in the heavenly places <eph2.6> and called 'His body', be the same church as they of OT promise who are 'the bride', called Israel, who have an inheritance 'in the earth'.

As far as Israel? Is Abraham the Father of our Faith in any different Body than you and I?

Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Let me ask a basic question here.  Read the following and show me how the church can be with Israel the bride who is blessed in the earth?

That is exactly what we are trying tofind out. Or me, being I am the one asking.

Eph1 ::a note---speaks of a church in the singular and never in the plural <so do all prison epistles> of a gentile church thus:

'all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. v3

'chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world' v4

'adoption...by Jesus Christ to himself' v5

made us accepted in the beloved' v6

according to the riches of his grace v7

<super> abounded toward us v8

made known unto us the mystery of his will v9

in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth v10

we <this gentile church> have obtained an inheritance 11

sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise v13

until the redemption of the purchased possession v14

in my prayers v16

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation v17

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints <holiest of all> v18

what is the exceeding greatness of his power v19

set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places v20

Far above all v21

gave him to be the head over all things to the church v22

Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. 23

So this boils down for me, to understand how these two different things can possibly be the same thing:

**those who since Moses have been instructed and do know their hope and calling, an earthly inheritance given throught the OT, called since the foundation of the world, seen as priests ministering the word of the Lord in the earth, pertaining to covenant promise and blessings

**those who must pray to know their hope of his calling, an heavenly inheritance given only in the prison epistles, chosen before the foundation of the world, called the church which is His body and seen seated with Christ far above all with all spiritual blessings w/out covenant.

[sail2awe]

M45510G1C  Posted Yesterday, 10:26 AM

  Also Gal 3:39

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thank you for the input.

This is exactly my question , that throughout the OT, Israel is called the bride, and here, Paul is writing to Jews. Beginning in v1 of Gal3, do you read this as speaking to Jews?

I am reminded of this verse:

Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.