The Rapture Deception

[The Light]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:34 AM, choir loft said:

TheLight wrote: Refuting your logic with scripture

First lets start with a proper translation, KJV. The correct word translated is eagles, not vultures.

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

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Eagles are the same as vultures.   You are dancing on the head of a pin

Eagles are not the same as vultures. There is CLEARLY a difference. And yes, I am dancing on the head of a pin. That is my exact goal, to PINPOINT the facts.

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. As a fine point of instruction, eagles prefer to eat things alive but will eat dead things if hunting is bad.  Eagles eat carrion too.  Look it up.

You are attempting to dance on a fine point pen and are failing miserably.

I certainly understand that eagles will also eat carrion, when necessary, but as you say prefer to eat live things.

You telling me that eagles are like vultures because both eat dead things is like you telling me that a June bug is like a 747 because both fly.

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Not for nothing was the national symbol of Nazi Germany an eagle.  Not for nothing is the national bird of America the same.  The natural tendency of eagles AND vultures is to assimilate dead and living matter into its being.   The same is true as a description of demons.  Neither eagle nor vulture are noble birds.  According to the Bible they are unclean animals not worthy of respect or diet.

Yes both the eagle and the vulture are forbidden to be eaten because both can eat dead flesh. It of course is for health reasons. The pagans ate them. But God has plenty of good things to say about the eagle. Here are two of the many.

EXO 19

⁴ Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

ISA 40

³¹ But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

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You aren't using logic to examine your own quotation.   "Where the corpses are" is a reference to the DEAD - to HELL.  You refuse to accept the literal meaning of the quoted scripture.  That's not my problem.  It's yours.  The only way to arrive at your conclusion is to corrupt the meaning and intent of God's Word.  The saints are gathered to - hell?

I don't refuse to accept the literal meaning of scripture, I embrace it. It says: ³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The body will be in the clouds and that is where the eagles will gather.

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You are correct in your interpretation of Revelation 14, but you've used that passage to apply to a scripture that speaks of something entirely different.  Again, you corrupt your own interpretation so as to justify doctrine, not to determine it.  You are putting your dogma before scripture.  Doctrine comes from scripture.  Rapture fans put doctrine first and justify its error with snippets of scripture.  Their logic requires false interpretation.

  You are in error. What I presented is EXACTLY what is being referred to. See the following:

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

It's pretty obvious that the rapture is being discussed when Jesus refers to the eagles gathering to the body. The body is in the clouds.

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The context of the Bible teaches that God does NOT remove His people from trouble.  

He walks with them through it.  Remember Shadrach Meshach & Abednego?  God walked WITH THEM in the fire.  He didn't grant them a bye.  Remember the Hebrews at the Red Sea?  God split the sea and allowed them to walk THROUGH trouble to escape.  He didn't lift them over it.  

 

The example of Shadrach Meshach & Abednego does not show the death of the wicked so that point is mute. The example of the Red Sea, shows the Hebrews LEAVING and the wicked experience Gods wrath. The story of Noah shows Noah, his family and the animals LEAVING in the ark and the world experiences the wrath of God. In the example of Lot, we see Lot leaving and Sodom and Gomorrah experiencing the wrath of God. Just as we will see those leaving who love God, and the world that remains will experience the wrath of God

 

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The Rapture is a doctrine of COWARDS because it persuades the gullible that God will extract them from trouble when in fact He will not.

Really? If God says there is going to be a wedding supper, IN HEAVEN, I believe Him. He is truth and His pattern has always been to remove the righteous before His wrath is delivered. And I don't see Him changing what He does as He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

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Faith grows by walking with God through difficulty, not in hoping falsely for an early excusal.

Exactly. Faith grows by walking trough difficulty. However, when wrath comes, we will be removed before it comes.
 

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 Therein lies the deception of the devil - to deny faith in God by means of false hope.  If Christians are to be conquerors, then they must fight difficulty not seek ways to run away from it. God hates a coward.

‘But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.’ - Revelation 21:8 

 

How can it be cowardly to understand and believe the Word of God. This is His word and His promises. Tell me blind man, what do you see?

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There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament.

Again, I will chose to believe what the Word says.

Gal 4

⁷ Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

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You can lay truth after truth before his feet. You can qualify your every position with cold hard irrefutable data. You can plead and scream and raise veritable hell, but before he will ever listen, he must first become aware of his own dire circumstances. As long as he views himself as safe and secure, as long as he imagines his chains to be wings, he will see no reason to question the validity of the world around him, and he will certainly never invest himself into changing his own deluded destiny.  - Anonymous

Fortunately I heard the Shepard and took the appropriate measures. Has nothing to do with the rapture.

Eph 2

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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The doctrine of the Rapture, indeed the entire false interpretation of End Times events was originally submitted as a revised interpretation of Daniel & Revelation by the Jesuit order of the Catholic church some five hundred years ago.  The brilliant Catholic apologist Francisco Ribera penned the interpretation, which has been followed by the Protestant church ever since - with increasing ferocity I may add.   Today the Protestant church virtually marches in lock-step with the blasphemous and demonic assertions made by Ribera and his adherents.  Today the Protestant church is a virtual echo of Catholic false doctrine and worship of its demi-god the pope. (*)   In the mid-19th century, during a virtual tsunami of demonic spiritualism that swept over America, John Nelson Darby picked up on many of Ribera's interpretations and gave it a modernized polish and refurbishment - calling it Rapture instead of Futurism.  His work was intensely popular as it remains to this day despite its vigorous defense of misinterpretation.

1st point is, you might need to do some more research.

2nd point is, I could care less who believes what and where something came from. I have never read, to this day, what any of these people think. I grabbed a Bible and found the truth for myself. Just because someone has fed you a crock, and you ate every bit, it is not going to influence what I believe or understand.

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It should be pointed out to the reader that both the original fabrication 'futurism' and the more current revision 'rapture' were and continue to be demonic assaults upon faith.  In order to convey futurism or rapture ideology one must submit the context of scripture to obfuscated interpretation and End Times ideology that God did not intend.  A deliberate and literal examination of scripture, devoid of 1,500 years of Catholic attempts to muddy the truth will reveal much that is not popular today.

I couldn't care less about any of this. I am only interested in the truth of the Word. I believe what the Word says, EXACTLY what the Word says.

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Rapture fans absolutely refuse any reference to truth, be it in correct interpretation of scripture, references to historic attempts to overturn it in American history as well as religious history of the church as a whole.  In order to falsely interpret scripture only a few verses are accepted as truth while all the rest require modification in literal interpretation;  death doesn't mean death, fire doesn't refer to destruction, and carrion birds refer to angels rather than demonic powers.  For these purveyors of false ideology the power of the comic book and the influence of the Holy See has displaced the truth of Holy Writ.

Why not read the Word for yourself and try to bring some scriptural facts to the table instead of  blindly regurgitating the John Nelson Darby, blah, blah, blah BALONEY.

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that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

That's me on the ground, well grounded, speaking softly and carrying a big sword.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by The Light

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, The Light said:

I can't agree, and I am not grasping how you don't see the difference.

According to what you posted Matt 24, and I quote "at the time conditions are seen in total"

When we look at what you posted in Luke, we see, "Things commence a change in conditions"

So when we are looking at Matthew we see things in TOTAL.

When we look at Luke, we see things that COMMENCE a change in conditions

When we look at the definition of commence it is to BEGIN or START. So conditions in Luke begin to change or start to change whereas in Matthew we see the total change. So I cannot agree with your conclusion.

It is different. One speaks to coming changes and the other to all the conditions, but it's still in the same context and still the answer to the main question of the sign of His coming and the end of the age. I struggled with similar things throughout the gospels in my earlier days. There seemed to be contradictions in the four accounts. That all came to a head when I looked at the sign placed on the cross. How could that one simple thing be recorded differently? It's not really. Says the same thing. Jesus is the King of the Jews. What's going on is the perspective of the ones recording the events. No doubt what's recorded in the Gospels was influenced by the personality, emotions, education, nurture and world view of the writers. 

I think it a testament to the watchful eye of God and His great power these personal vantage points have survived and the gospels never morphed into clones of one another.

In the case of Matthew and Luke we are reading the works of a tax collector and a physician by trade. I could not expect that each would have the same focus nor the same vantage point, just based on personal epistemology. That is why I allow the difference in the presentation of the same story in the same context. This was by design. Our Father gave us multiple witnesses to capture all the necessary ideas and details.

It's not that I don't see the difference, I do. Luke is looking at symptoms as a physician would, and Matthew sees the bottom line, just like a money man would. Same space/time moment from two personal perspectives.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Sure, in the end there are sheep and goats. But during the journey, to the end, we see that the Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles would then be the 1st harvest (the elder son). The fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the early summer grain harvest. When the Jews see this, part of them will become jealous and their eyes will be opened.  (not those in the nation of Israel)

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

So along the journey there is a clear division between Jews and Gentiles, hence the 70th week of Daniel.

Somewhat confusing to me and I believe this to be separate discussion regarding the seasons/harvest as related to the gathering. 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon will be angry and go after the remnant of her seed. That is the 12 tribes that are across the earth. These already have had their blindness removed and know that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. This happens during the great tribulation. Those of the 12 tribes that are across the earth and are alive at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 will be caught up. Only the nation of Israel and unbelievers go through the wrath of God and the woman will be in a place of protection.

."which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This is only true of the seed of Abraham. Jews do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ, only believers in Jesus carry that testimony. Therefore the remnant of the seed of the woman is the group of believers in Christ, not the nation of Israel. And if it is Jews and they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus they are righteous believers in Jesus Christ, like you and me. That's whom the dragon attacks, all who have the testimony of Christ. If a pretrib rapture, there are none. 

And no, the nation of Israel does not go through wrath:

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." - Zechariah 14

What left of the Jews right before the Lord comes with His mighty army will be hidden before wrath is meted out upon the rebels.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

You are referring to what is modern day Judea. Judea at the time of the apostles was the area of the tribe of Judah.

Yes, I agree. But the prophecy concerns those alive of the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy. Prophecy unfulfilled has no affect on ancient people long dead. Therefore the prophecy can only be speaking to the ones so affected, hence the demographics of Israel in general and, apparently, Judea specifically.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Two different times. He tells the disiples that they will desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of Man.

What is the day of the Son of Man.  For as the lightning....................................................................................

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Just off the top of my head it seems this is a warning not to heed the false claims of Jesus return.

"People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them."

Because....

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day."

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The First Seven English versions had DEPARTURE, there is only one debate, what is DEPARTING, men from the Faith that is never mentioned in the whole passage, or The Church Departing to be with Christ, in which case the First verse points unto that. 

All your maneuvering around and trying to wordsmith these things do not make a great impression on me brother, I follow the Spirits guidance, Its called my knower, I know, that I know, that I know when I see it. I understand that nothing about THE FAITH is being pointed to at all in the passage, so you can't convince me Paul is speaking about a DEPARTING from the Faith when it is obvious he is speaking about being Gathered unto Christ as per the DEPARTING. I could care less that the KJV translators tried to change the meaning to Rebellion to smear the RCC as not being of the Faith. 

Dude, it's the difference between what you say is the rapture, "harpazo" and what you say is departing, "apostasia". When the Lord comes for us it's "harpazo", that's common to whatever one believes about the gathering. It's an abduction in the open with great power and you know it. How is that equivalent to your take on the church leaving? We don't 'leave' we are taken. By force. In great power. 

 

Below I'm going to pare your quotes to the main issue I'll address. Apologies if I mess up.

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Thus the Remnant Church is ON EARTH. 

Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal which like all the Seals cover the coming 42 months rule of the Beast. 

{{{ This has nothing to do with the Church Age Saints per se, its all about the Tribulation, Remnant Church Saints, who came to Christ AFTER the rapture, thus they are called the Remnant. NOTICE: The want to be avenged via those people still ALIVE ON EARTH at that time !! They are given White Robes and told to wait until all their brothers were killed in like manner as they were. }}}

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 So this Remnant is indeed the Remnant Church on earth, a remnant because the Church is indeed in Heaven at this point in time. These are the Martyrs of the 5th Seal, we can clearly see them in Rev. 20:4 also, and they are specified in detail there also.}}}

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

{ So, do you now SEE that there are indeed those who go through the 70th week tribulation who are Christian Saints ? Because its indeed there in Scriptures.}}}

This is all great however it never addresses the point I bring up all the time:

If the church is taken pre 70th week because of 'we are not appointed to wrath', and the 70th week is God's wrath, how can believers be in the wrath of God? You place a great big group of believers in God's wrath even as you demand the church escapes that same wrath. Why? You have to resolve this as even the internal logic of the doctrine is inconsistent.

So again, no matter how you slice it, pretrib says; the church escapes God's wrath but believers go into God's wrath.

So when are you going to deal with this contradiction?

When the beast rises and the A of D occurs? When the mark is instituted? 

Never?

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Being FACTUAL has its REWARDS, we come to the truth of God that way. So, like I stated, there is a JUXTAPOSITION to the Beast being made there, it takes your Hitler analogy out of the equation, so your fall back was this above....pretty weak brother. 

The original point was a refutation to the pretrib dogma of 'the church restrains evil'. If so it's doing a poor job of it. 

 

[choir loft]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

 

 

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

It's pretty obvious that the rapture is being discussed when Jesus refers to the eagles gathering to the body. The body is in the clouds.

In order to justify your ideology you deliberately misquote scripture.   Verse 37 is correctly written in the Bible as "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (*)

Why did you conveniently leave the correct words out?   You left them out because they provide an embarrassing illumination upon your error.

Are carcasses stored in heaven?  NO.   Do dead decomposing bodies appear in any description of paradise including your dinner party?  NO.

My point, my dear misguided brother, is that Rapture fanatics MUST DELIBERATELY misquote scripture and take its inferences out of context in order to justify an anti-Christian End Times doctrine of demons.

Show me ANY verse in scripture that describes dead decomposing bodies in heaven.  You cannot for there is not.

What is the destiny of the taken?  JESUS said they are taken to a place where dead bodies are gathered.  In that place their bones are picked apart by carrions birds/birds of prey.   You cannot escape the awful conclusion of the WORDS OF CHRIST, but you can indeed misquote them, misinterpret them and deliberately ignore their implication.  

Those that are taken go to DESTRUCTION.   They don't go to a dinner party.

It is counter productive to a growing faith and the attitude of cowards who refuse to accept tribulation in their lives.

I say, BRING IT ON.   With God's help I can get through anything.  I welcome those things which sharpen and focus faith.   I reject those things which erode it - including but not limited to the Rapture theory.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Some translations prefer the phrase 'dead bodies' while others, like the KJV, simply say 'body'.  In all cases the phrase is accompanied by the modifier description of vultures/eagles.   While it is possible to deliberately misconstrue the phrase 'bodies' it cannot be misunderstood when the final words are considered.  Vultures or eagles gather upon carcasses like birds upon road kill.  The textual image is certified by the inclusion of carrion birds.   This in no way can be honestly interpreted as angelic beings or a heavenly banquet.   It is the sad result of SIN and faithlessness.

In NO translation is there a modifier or additional reference to imply the 'taken' of verse 37 go to heaven.  It's quite the opposite in fact.

 

[iamlamad]

On 4/18/2020 at 2:04 PM, BlessedCreator said:

The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verse 17.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I will tell you why I included verse 16 in a moment.

The catching up together of those who are alive when the Lord returns, that is the rapture.
So we see there will indeed be a rapture. The controversy with the rapture is not a matter of whether it
is real or not. The controversy is over the timing.

Some are teaching that the rapture happens before the Lord
returns at the very end.
They teach that Christians are getting a special get out of persecution free card to leave this world early.
This is completely wrong and I will show you why it is such a dangerous doctrine to believe.

Let's look at the verses again and see if they can give us any information regarding the timing of the rapture.
In verse 16 we see the Lord returns and at that time the dead in Christ shall rise first. This is important.
The dead in Christ rise first. Then going directly to the next words in verse 17 it says "then". Then meaning
after what just preceded. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

What does this mean?
This tells us the resurrection happens first and THEN the rapture happens.
Why is this important?
Because if we can figure out when the resurrection happens then we can know
exactly when the rapture happens because it takes place right after.

Thankfully God is not the author of confusion and has not left us without sound doctrine so that
we are not left in the dark concerning these things.
The Bible tells us 5 different times in the gospel of John when the resurrection takes place.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY.
Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

If you are expecting the true messiah Jesus Christ to return before the very end to save
you from the persecution of the Antichrist and his wicked followers then you are actually going to get
the false messiah/Antichrist who comes to deceive the world into believing that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years since Christ came.
They are being martyred now, even openly in eastern countries. And we will continue to be martyred until the very end.
Few will survive to take part in the rapture. Nobody is getting an escape card in these last days.

It is our duty as Christians to share the truth (edify) with our brothers and sisters.
There are many that are deceived by this false doctrine, prepared to receive the coming Antichrist.
Please share with them what you have just learned.

There certainly IS a "rapture deception:" Any post denying the rapture is deception, and any post moving the rapture from Paul's timing of pretrib to anywhere else is also deception. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Dude, it's the difference between what you say is the rapture, "harpazo" and what you say is departing, "apostasia". When the Lord comes for us it's "harpazo", that's common to whatever one believes about the gathering. It's an abduction in the open with great power and you know it. How is that equivalent to your take on the church leaving? We don't 'leave' we are taken. By force. In great power. 

 

Below I'm going to pare your quotes to the main issue I'll address. Apologies if I mess up.

This is all great however it never addresses the point I bring up all the time:

If the church is taken pre 70th week because of 'we are not appointed to wrath', and the 70th week is God's wrath, how can believers be in the wrath of God? You place a great big group of believers in God's wrath even as you demand the church escapes that same wrath. Why? You have to resolve this as even the internal logic of the doctrine is inconsistent.

So again, no matter how you slice it, pretrib says; the church escapes God's wrath but believers go into God's wrath.

So when are you going to deal with this contradiction?

When the beast rises and the A of D occurs? When the mark is instituted? 

Never?

The original point was a refutation to the pretrib dogma of 'the church restrains evil'. If so it's doing a poor job of it. 

It is not God's will that ANY believer go through God's wrath poured out. He has a planed escape called the rapture. He wants EVERY HUMAN to be born again and read for that rapture. However, He knows every human won't be ready. That is why He had Paul wrote of the sudden destruction for "they" in 1 thes. 5. SOME will be raptured, but MOST will be left behind. Some of those left behind will be those who call themselves "Christian," but were never born again. 

I would guess most of those who called themselves "Christian" will very soon find out why they were left behind, and will DETERMINE to follow Jesus no matter what during the 70th week.

God is NOT GOING To have a second rapture to save those not ready at the real pretrib rapture.  Further proof that many saints will be left behind is that twice God has said the saints will be overcome. Is that His will? No! His will was that they be ready and be caught up to escape His wrath. 

It is not the church, per-se, that restrains evil: it is the Holy Spirit working through the church. The moment after the rapture, suddenly the Holy spirit will have NO ONE to work through  on earth. The man of sin can then be revealed.

There is an either / or here: It is proven that whatever the meaning of Apostasia that Paul intended, It MUST be what Paul intended in what ever it is that is "taken out of the way." It is either a departing from the faith or a departing spatially from the earth.  Since in 3b the man of sin IS revealed, then "Apostasia" has to be the restrainer "taken out of the way." 

Some people think a falling away fits "taken out of the way." I think the departing of the church fits it much better.  So WHAT is the restraining force? Paul said, "and now you know what is restraining." In other words, Paul had just told us- some how / some way - but did it in a cloaked manner. 

Since Paul's argument is, when people SEE this great "apostasia," then see the man of sin revealed, they can then be SURE "the DAY" has come and they are in it.  In other words, the apostasia  - whatever Paul meant by that - MUST be something that people would say, "aha! THAT is what Paul was talking about."

Question: if it was a falling away from the faith - how in the world would anyone know when "enough" had fallen away to fit Paul's teaching? It would have to be something everyone would see and then know. On the other hand, when perhaps half the world sudden disappears, that is going to be a VERY SIGNIFICANT departing: something no one could miss.

God is simply not going to FORCE people to get born again! It is as each person WILLS.

Edited April 24, 2020 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There certainly IS a "rapture deception:" Any post denying the rapture is deception, and any post moving the rapture from Paul's timing of pretrib to anywhere else is also deception. 

Last trumpet on the last day my friend.  The recurring end time theme is perseverance, endurance, staying awake, being alert, etc.  There will be no pretrib rapture entitlement for a privileged few.  The last trumpet sounds in the day that the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and Israel is saved, the last day of Satan's kingdom.

Then the Lord will appear over them,   [in the clouds (Acts 1:9-11, Rev 1:7]
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;   [the seventh plague (Rev 11:19, 16:18)]
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,   [resurrection/rapture (1 Thess 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52)]
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day   [the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and Israel saved (Romans 11:25-27)]
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

Everything harmonizes perfectly when you look at the full body of evidence and let scripture explain itself.   

[Justin Adams]

26 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

There will be no pretrib rapture entitlement for a privileged few.  The last trumpet sounds in the day that the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and Israel is saved, the last day of Satan's kingdom.

...and also all the other fallen Heavenly Host. It is going to be a BIG BATTLE. Huge. The hosts will not give up without a fight and the nations arrayed at their command that were formerly given to them by Yahweh. They have had their authority stripped at the Cross, but I see them even now amassing a new world order of military might to do their bidding at the end.

It will be where heaven meets earth and a tremendous fight like the world has never seen. Or ever will see again. 

All the fallen ex-holy ones with much knowledge and power will be arrayed against us believers.

The battle for Zion - God's Holy Hill.

It might look like we are going to lose... But the Lord (our C in C) arrayed in His Might will descend with His True Holy Ones; we will be led by Him and defeat the unclean masses against us, both human and spiritual.
It will not be pretty, but it will be FINAL.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

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It is different. One speaks to coming changes and the other to all the conditions,

Okay, you see that there is a difference. But you are not recognizing the true difference. As you say, one speaks to all the conditions, but the other speaks to an event that will happen when things BEGIN to take place. The group in Matthew (the 12 tribes across the earth) sees ALL the things that will come to pass before his coming. Which means of course that they are here when all the things come to pass. The group in Luke (The Church) are told that when they see these things BEGIN or START come to pass, they will be able to ESCAPE all the things that will come to pass. A clear difference that needs to be recognized. I think part of the problem is that you have been against the pretrib rapture for so long that you will take any exit that you can to not recognize that it is there. Certainly understandable. But I know you really want the truth, no matter how hard it is to swallow, and I will address that now.

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but it's still in the same context and still the answer to the main question of the sign of His coming and the end of the age

No sir, it is not the same context. You say it is still the answer to the main question, the sign of His coming and the end of the age. Again, I will say, one group will be here and see all the things that will come to pass. They will see the sign of His coming AT the end of the age. The other group will escape ALL the things that will come to pass. That includes the false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, famine and pestilence (the 1st four seals) This group will not be here when all these things come to pass, they will not be here at the end of the age.
 

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. I struggled with similar things throughout the gospels in my earlier days. There seemed to be contradictions in the four accounts. That all came to a head when I looked at the sign placed on the cross. How could that one simple thing be recorded differently? It's not really. Says the same thing. Jesus is the King of the Jews. What's going on is the perspective of the ones recording the events. No doubt what's recorded in the Gospels was influenced by the personality, emotions, education, nurture and world view of the writers. 

I think it a testament to the watchful eye of God and His great power these personal vantage points have survived and the gospels never morphed into clones of one another.

In the case of Matthew and Luke we are reading the works of a tax collector and a physician by trade. I could not expect that each would have the same focus nor the same vantage point, just based on personal epistemology. That is why I allow the difference in the presentation of the same story in the same context. This was by design. Our Father gave us multiple witnesses to capture all the necessary ideas and details.

 

So if two people witness an event and then provide an account of what happened at the event we should allow for a difference in view points. That's very wise. So it's the SAME STORY, SAME CONTEXT, witnessed at the SAME EVENT by two different people. And shouldn't we allow for different viewpoints. Sure. But shouldn't we also allow for certain things  being reported by one person that are not the same things being reported by another person. Example: Both you and I attend the Superbowl. We are to record an explanation to people that have never been to a football game and know very little about it. You give your account and in part of your description of what you reported was something like this: The players were jumping high and running hard and the explosions were heard after each team scored. Then I also report of the things that I witnessed at the same event and part of what I write down is something like this: And they were all running around and jumping in unison and at the end there were many explosions for all to see.

Obviously we are talking about the same thing. I mean, we are at the same event reporting on the same things that happened. So most people read what we have written and conclude, yep, they are talking about the same thing. But a few want more details. They go to you and say, tell us about the explosions that happen when a team scores. What exactly is happening? Well the players are jumping high and catching the ball and running into the end zone and scoring touchdowns. When each teams scores there are three canons that are fired, one after another. Then they come to me and want a few more details. Tell us more about the scoring and the explosions of the canons that you reported on? Oh, no, that's not what I am reporting on. What I was talking about was the great halftime show. After the 1st half of the game, the game stops and they have a show with a lot of people running and jumping. They have beautiful costumes. At the end of the show they shoot off a barrage of fireworks. It's a great show for all to see.

Does that type of thing happen in what Matthew and Luke are reporting? Sure. We can see it if we look close enough.

Look what Matthew says:

Matt 24

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matthew tells us that we will see nation rise against nation, and famines and pestlinces and THEN they will  deliver you up. Matthew tells us what will happen AFTER nations rise against nations and famines and pestilences. He is talking about the end time in Jerusalem.

What does Luke say:

Luke 21

¹⁰ Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

¹¹ And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke tells us that nations will rise against nations and there will be famines and pestilences. Then he says BUT BEFORE ALL THESE. He talks about events in Jerusalem that happen before nations rise against nations and famines and pestilences. Luke reports on the events that happen in 70AD at that point. Then later catches up with events that happen in end times.

I believe these two also report on another difference that we can readily see. Matthew reports on what happens to those (the twelve tribes across the earth )that are here when they see all these things come to pass (wars, famines pestilences etc, etc). The end result is the coming of Jesus for the gathering before the wrath of God. Luke reports on what will happen to the Gentiles that will BEGIN to see the things that will come to pass. They will escape ALL THE THINGS that are coming on the earth. The end result is a pre tribulation repture before the seals are opened, which is before the 70th week.

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It's not that I don't see the difference, I do. Luke is looking at symptoms as a physician would, and Matthew sees the bottom line, just like a money man would. Same space/time moment from two personal perspectives.

I believe this was adequately covered above.

You say that you want facts of the scripture to make decisions. I have let the Gospel speak for itself. The choice is believing what is written or not believing what is written.

 

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Last trumpet on the last day my friend.  The recurring end time theme is perseverance, endurance, staying awake, being alert, etc.  There will be no pretrib rapture entitlement for a privileged few.  The last trumpet sounds in the day that the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and Israel is saved, the last day of Satan's kingdom.

Then the Lord will appear over them,   [in the clouds (Acts 1:9-11, Rev 1:7]
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;   [the seventh plague (Rev 11:19, 16:18)]
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,   [resurrection/rapture (1 Thess 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52)]
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day   [the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and Israel saved (Romans 11:25-27)]
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

Everything harmonizes perfectly when you look at the full body of evidence and let scripture explain itself.   

There may well be a trumpet on the last day. the church won't be on earth to hear it though. One thing is certian, if there is  - it won't be paul's "last trump."  His last is the last of a DIFFERENT SERIES - without much doubt, the final trumpet sound at a given year's feast of trumpets. 

The recurring end time theme is perseverance, endurance, staying awake, being alert, etc.  All that is pointed straight to the Jews: the 70th week is for THEM,  not for the church. The church will be ready (well, at least some of them) when Jesus comes pretrib for His bride and to begin the Day of the Lord, and will escape what is coming; as Paul wrote, those in Christ and alive will get "salvation" (caught up) and will get to "live together with Him" ("So shall we ever be with the Lord") in heaven while the 70th week is going on  - on earth. It is sad by the vast majority of the world will be left behind to face the Sudden destruction and God's wrath in the Day of the Lord. 

Daze: you have a choice: get ready to Meet Jesus (Maybe tonight) or get left behind. What I am saying is, you can set your OWN Appointment with His wrath, or you can choose to escape. 

The ONLY scripture pertinent to those left behind that love God is the scriptures that tell them they will be overcome.

The current end time theme for the church is to GET READY and stay ready, for Jesus can come at any time.

Edited April 24, 2020 by iamlamad