The Pre-Trib Rapture and The Day Of The Lord

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

In Dan. 2 we read of the Great Image. And here it is being destroyed by God who then sets up His kingdom rule through Israel. So any rulers of the world rulers of this Great Image are all GENTILES. It is the end of the gentile rule over the world.

 

The Julio-Claudians were gentiles.    And they were Romans.   

When Jesus returns, He rules the nations with a rod of iron.

[not an echo]

On 4/26/2020 at 6:17 PM, douggg said:

On 4/26/2020 at 6:04 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Now the Rapture is NOT anytime but when God says it is -

`...till we call come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect, (mature) man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:...` (Eph. 4: 13)

And we are not there yet.

Like the term "pre-trib" some one at one time came up with.    I came up with the term "Anytime Rapture", which I based on Luke 21:34-36...

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:22 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 4/26/2020 at 6:17 PM, douggg said:

Like the term "pre-trib" some one at one time came up with.    I came up with the term "Anytime Rapture", which I based on Luke 21:34-36...

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

 

 

And to whom is the Lord speaking there to Douggg? Why yes the people in partial darkness, the Jews NOT the Body of Christ who walk in the LIGHT. (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

Hi again douggg, Marilyn C (and all),

Just feeling the need to bear some of my heart.  I don't know about you two, but I know for me, I wish I had the time to join in on more of the discussions that take place, especially when related to a thread I have started.  Sometimes I feel that if I don't make a response, it might be felt that I am in agreement.  Of course, sometimes I am, and sometimes not.  A handicap that I have is that I often have to look for time to not only read posts, but to respond to them.  And I count myself as being kinda slow.  Sometimes a post really interests me and sometimes not so much.  In any case, I do feel that such discussions can be a good thing, if done in the spirit of Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-6ff), and I believe you two have done well in this regard.  There is nothing wrong with a healthy discussion, if so done.

Annnyway, as far as my different pre-trib threads (and posts), I'm thinking of only saying what is on my heart at this time here and then sharing similarly in my testimony, where the testimony section of the forum is (hopefully today).  Then, if I must forgo some discussions, I can point others, who may not be understanding, to a reason why.  Hope you understand, and I know many will.  It is easy to perceive that some in the Worthy Christian Forums' family are retirees, or some with a lot of time on their hands!  I am not in that number, but one of these days...unless God calls me home first!

Because of my time restraints and priorities, I am finding more and more that I have to be careful to "choose my battles" so to speak.  I am endeavoring to be a good husband to my wife, a good father to my son, a good pastor to my church family, a good employee to my employer, a good citizen of my community (and country), and one or two other things!  Oh, and a good disciple of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whose place is actually at the top of the list, everywhere in the midst of the list, and well, I hope you get the idea. 

I know that we all know that the Worthy Christian Forums site is so extensive, that it would be impossible for anyone to take part in everything that is going on.  There is so much good here.  I believe I can safely say that there is something here for anyone in the family of God.  As far as some disagreements that are not so good, if we all continue to realize that we are all at different levels of spiritual maturity, we can all be a help to each other, in harmony with Paul's words to the Ephesians, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (4:13).

Oh, about forgot.  The battle front that I know that I have been called to (as far as this Christian forum) concerns the truth of the timing of the rapture relative to other events and what it takes to see the truth of this.  To any who are not seeing things as I do, I understand.  Just hope you will take another look.

Here is a link to my testimony that I mentioned above, titled My Testimony and More (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
add link

[douggg]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

a good pastor to my church family

If you are so cramped for time,  I suggest take some time off from posting in this eschatology forum until you have learned to use a program like Paintshop Pro.   Or just toughen up, ask the Lord for help with the time constraint issues, and His help in understanding the end times passages (that's what I do), and keep posting (selectively) while learning how to use such a program.

Then construct a timeline chart of the 7 year 70th week.    And another chart of your pretrib-day of the Lord view - but better than your first one.     And post them on this forum for feedback, so you can refine, perhaps even alter your view (to anytime rapture view instead, which the rapture could happen pre-70th week, but may not, as long as it is before the beginning of the Day of the Lord).

Then get a lexmark color lazerjet printer, or similar - make some copies of your timeline chart and your rapture timing chart - and put a few beside your front door entry - so that when JW's come around, you can hand them a copy, in exchange for their literature they are going to want to give you.   

btw, I was just over at the JW's site a few days ago, and went to look at their end times view.    And their view of the four horsemen are similar (but not exact) to yours.   They say that Jesus received his crown in 1914 as part of their four horsemen view.   They say that the red horse - global war erupted in 1914 - as part of their view.

See what happens when a person drifts away from the foundation of the 7 year 70th week in eschatology ?

________________________________________________________________________

Look at all the time you have spent verbalizing so far at this forum.   Trying to get others to understand your points of view - and then trying to get them to agree.  Back and forth, back and forth.   Same thing with what you are trying to do with your congregation.   It is going to, therefore, be kinda hard for you to backtrack on any eschatological view you now hold - which we are on the receiving end of that resistance.  And get all the really nice and pastor trait friendly posts from you.   The friendliness is welcomed, but it cannot be table fare.    Get to the point(s).

The problem, everyone has opinions and views - and no-one can remember what the other one's is - especially in complicated areas like eschatology.      A timeline chart that you can insert into a post early on - quickly brings the other posters on board with your view(s).   

It also shows whether you are thinking logically and biblically. 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by douggg

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, douggg said:

 

 

Well said douggg.

Now we have our differences, but that keeps us `humble,` so as to not be pushy.

all the best, Marilyn.

[not an echo]

On 4/26/2020 at 5:54 PM, douggg said:

The rapture could happen anytime in the blue shaded zone.

https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1133849713_ratpurewindow3.jpg.7707309ccbef6764d3a2b290ea865f84.jpg

 

Hello douggg,

There are some important similarities between your chart and mine.  I fully agree that Christ can come at any time, and I like seeing your acknowledgment of that.  Now, if Jesus comes tonight, I don't see the "Confirmation of the covenant/Daniel's 70th week begins" happening tomorrow.  But, the day the rapture occurs, I do see the Day of the Lord also beginning (I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3), which is in accord with both our charts.

I do not see Daniel's 70th Week beginning until some time after the Seven Sealed Book is opened, as shown in my chart that follows:

In accord with my above chart, I see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17 with 7:9-17;  Matt. 24:29-31 with Lk. 21:25-27;  Acts 2:20).  In tune with Paul's words, I see the Day of the Lord beginning this same day as well (Rev. 6:17 with I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3).  This is possible because the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, all in accord with the prophetic points that converge at the opening of these seals.  I believe the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what this book is all about.  Daniel's 70th Week will not begin until some months later (e.g., Rev. 9:5, 10) and not until after the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" in Revelation 10 (cp. Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  The first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun is in the opening verses of Revelation 11.  The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord.  They connect with the era of the Church, or Church Age, and represent what will take place up until the Day of the Lord begins.

Christ refers to His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16) as "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Realize that the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!  The tribulation Christ speaks of in Matthew 24:29 is not Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals throughout the course of post-apostolic history until now.  Of course, Satan has always been active, both in the world and in the lives of individuals.  But since the days of the apostles, his activity in the world can be seen through the things that have taken place that Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  As I see it, the four horsemen have left quite a trail and they are even now kicking up dust all over the world.  I can almost envision Satan negotiating with Almighty God for the liberties that he has been granted to ply his craft during the era of the Church.  These spiritual realm liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen.  Realize that Satan would not have liberty to squirm, unless given such liberty by Almighty God.

Daniel's 70th Week will be brought to an abrupt close with Christ's Second Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon.  Satan's liberties will then be put on hold when he is bound for the 1000 years of Christ's Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:1-3), after which he will be given liberties one last time (Rev. 20:7-9).  Then he will meet his eternal doom (Rev. 20:10).  Following this, the Great White Throne Judgment will take place and the Day of the Lord will come to a close (Rev. 20:11-15).  Then will commence that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved, to continue for all eternity (Rev. 21-22)! 

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.  Amen" (Rev. 22:21).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[douggg]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

 Now, if Jesus comes tonight, I don't see the "Confirmation of the covenant/Daniel's 70th week begins" happening tomorrow.

I agree.

 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

But, the day the rapture occurs, I do see the Day of the Lord also beginning (I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3), which is in accord with both our charts.

No,  that is not what my chart indicates.    Because...the beginnig of the Day of Lord is not triggered by the rapture - but the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The rapture could take place, after the 70th week begins, yet be years before the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

In accord with my above chart, I see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17 with 7:9-17;  Matt. 24:29-31 with Lk. 21:25-27;  Acts 2:20). 

The rapture is a sign-less event.   Not tied to any of the seals.     It just has to happen anytime between today and the Antichrist going into temple, sitting, claiming to be God..... and we don't have enough information to pinpoint that day on a timeline, but it triggers the Day of the Lord - which comes as a thief in the night.

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

In tune with Paul's words, I see the Day of the Lord beginning this same day as well

The flaw is that you are mis-thinking the rapture triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.    When in fact, it is not the rapture, but the action by the Antichrist going in to the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.    

What you need to rethink is....according to the text....

What triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord?

a.   the rapture, or

b.  the action by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God

Secondly, is the rapture a signless event?

Am I trying to tie the rapture to specific signs ?

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 4/29/2020 at 4:21 AM, douggg said:

On 4/29/2020 at 12:10 AM, not an echo said:

But, the day the rapture occurs, I do see the Day of the Lord also beginning (I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3), which is in accord with both our charts.

No,  that is not what my chart indicates.    Because...the beginnig of the Day of Lord is not triggered by the rapture - but the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The rapture could take place, after the 70th week begins, yet be years before the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Hello again douggg (and all),

I see the Day of the Lord as being a period of time, like the day (period, age, or era) of the computer.  What I show under the DAY OF THE LORD line (similar to your chart), I see as happening during this period, including Daniel's 70th Week.  Of course, the highlight of the Day of the Lord will be that specific day (like Monday) that Christ comes as the King of kings and Lord of lords, for the Battle of Armageddon and to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

Concerning the rapture, relative to the beginning of the Day of the Lord, consider afresh from I Thessalonians 5:

   1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   For yourselves know perfectly that the Day (broad sense) of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape (i.e., shall not be raptured with the Church).

It is evident that Paul writes these words to the Thessalonians just after explaining to them about the rapture in the closing verses of chapter four (I Thess. 4:13-18).  It is in the context of his words to them concerning the rapture that he makes this very close connection with the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  Of course, he likens the suddenness and the unexpectedness of the time of its beginning to that of the coming of "a thief in the night",  which will be the exact experience of those who are left at the rapture, as the 6th Seal account shows (Rev. 6:15-17).  Consider this in light of Luke's paralleling account of Christ's "sign" appearance (cp. Lk. 21:27 with Matt. 24:30) in Luke 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Christ's return at this time, when He returns for His church, will likewise be sudden and unexpected.  As He plainly indicates, He will come as a "thief" (e.g., Matt. 24:42-44 and Lk. 12:39-40)!  Because the rapture and the Day of the Lord so closely coincide, it has become commonplace to say that Christ's return for the rapture of the Church will be "as a thief in the night",  and rightly so, as I see it.  This world will by no means be expecting the rapture event, not be prepared for what will take place afterwards.

On 4/29/2020 at 4:21 AM, douggg said:

On 4/29/2020 at 12:10 AM, not an echo said:

In accord with my above chart, I see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17 with 7:9-17;  Matt. 24:29-31 with Lk. 21:25-27;  Acts 2:20). 

The rapture is a sign-less event.   Not tied to any of the seals.     It just has to happen anytime between today and the Antichrist going into temple, sitting, claiming to be God..... and we don't have enough information to pinpoint that day on a timeline, but it triggers the Day of the Lord - which comes as a thief in the night.

I fully agree with you douggg that the rapture is a "sign-less event" as comments normally go.  I believe that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, which to me, means He can come before I finish this sentence!  I am not looking for, nor expecting to see, any "sign" before the rapture.  Rather, I am waiting (I Thess. 1:10) and watching (Mk. 13:32-37!) for Christ's "sign" appearance (Matt. 29:30), when all of God's children (the Church, which will include us if we are still alive!) will be gathered together by the angels (Matt. 24:31 with I Thess. 4:13-18 and II Thess. 2:1) to meet Him "in the air" (I Thess. 4:17)!!!

To make sure I am perfectly understood, I do not see the opening of the first four seals as being "signs that can be looked for",  again, as comments normally go.  The going forth of the four horsemen is not in the category of a singular sign event, but rather, is the ongoing activity of Satan through these henchmen of his---activity that began just after John received The Revelation (Rev. 1:1-3), and has continued even until now.  This spiritual realm activity of Satan's is responsible for the tribulation (which has often been great) that the Church has experienced since the first century, and this activity of his will continue till the day of the rapture.

As far as the celestial phenomena relating to the sun, the moon, and the stars, these will not occur until the very moment of the event of the rapture, meaning concurrent with it.  As I see it, the four blood moons and the recent total eclipse weren't anything, except for kinda neat.  Oh, Satan would like for us to think they were more than this.  He would like for us to think a lot of things.  He would like for us to think his henchmen are still corralled.  What are you thinking douggg?

On 4/29/2020 at 4:21 AM, douggg said:

On 4/29/2020 at 12:10 AM, not an echo said:

In tune with Paul's words, I see the Day of the Lord beginning this same day as well

The flaw is that you are mis-thinking the rapture triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.    When in fact, it is not the rapture, but the action by the Antichrist going in to the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.    

What you need to rethink is....according to the text....

What triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord?

a.   the rapture, or

b.  the action by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God

Secondly, is the rapture a signless event?

Am I trying to tie the rapture to specific signs ?

As I see The Revelation, your "b" possibility, "the action by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God" has no evidence of occurring until Revelation 11:1.  Consider this verse in light of II Thessalonians 2:4.  To this day, I am not aware of anyone---or anything in print---or anything in the web world---that makes this simple observation but me.  Why I do not know, other than I am reminded of what Daniel was told long ago (Dan. 12:4)---and some other things.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[douggg]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

As far as the celestial phenomena relating to the sun, the moon, and the stars, these will not occur until the very moment of the event of the rapture, meaning concurrent with it.  As I see it, the four blood moons and the recent total eclipse weren't anything, except for "kinda neat."  Oh, Satan would like for us to think they were more than this.  He would like for us to think a lot of things.  He would like for us to think his henchmen are still corralled.  What are you thinking douggg?

I don't view any connection at all of Matthew 24:29-30 with the rapture.    I think that Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24:30a, Matthew 24:30b take place at the very end of the 7 years.

 

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see The Revelation, your "b" possibility, "the action by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God" has no evidence of occurring until Revelation 11:1. 

In Revelation 11:1, John is told to measure the temple and them who worship within.     So since there are persons worshiping within, the animal sacrifices are going on.    So the 1260 days of testimony by the two witnesses is in the first half.

The outer court, John was told not to measure because it is given over to the gentiles.   Which can be deduced that them in the temple proper worshiping are Jews.

The outer courts in the second temple was call the court of the gentiles.   Which they could congregate there.   But not in the temple proper.   

________________________________________________________

The other thing to consider is that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles 42 months.    So that would be in different time, when Jerusalem is under occupation.  

So part of verse 2 is in the first half.   And the other part in the second half.

 

What it boils down to is since the beast overcomes the the two witnesses near the end of their testimony time (the 1260 days) - the person, the Antichrist (his role before becoming the beast) must commit the transgression of desolation act (of 2Thessalonians2:4) earlier in the first half.    An exact day on the timeline cannot be determined.    But my guess is around 3 years or so into the 7 years. 

From my chart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

As far as the celestial phenomena relating to the sun, the moon, and the stars, these will not occur until the very moment of the event of the rapture, meaning concurrent with it.  As I see it, the four blood moons and the recent total eclipse weren't anything, except for "kinda neat."  Oh, Satan would like for us to think they were more than this.  He would like for us to think a lot of things.  He would like for us to think his henchmen are still corralled.  What are you thinking douggg?

I don't view any connection at all of Matthew 24:29-30 with the rapture.    I think that Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24:30a, Matthew 24:30b take place at the very end of the 7 years.

So, are you are not seeing Matthew 24:29-31 as a singular event?

[douggg]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, are you are not seeing Matthew 24:29-31 as a singular event?

Is Jesus first coming a single event?

There are multitude of closely tied together events that take place during Matthew 24:29-31.     Overall, as Jesus's Second Coming.

Spanning around 2 months.     The one specific block of time that can be determined is the 45 days that the armies will assemble at Armagddeon, and march down and take Jerusalem as hostage.     That 45 days is annotated on my chart.

Edited April 30, 2020 by douggg