How do you explain Trinity or non Trinitarian views

[Ervin P]

Hi, I suppose I have to work out whether I understand the New Testament teachings to teach a Trinitarian or non Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine.

So, could you please explain why you are Trinitarian(I am assuming pretty much all of you are Trinitarian). But can you also give explanation for the verses used by non Trinitarian believers?

In case you are non Trinitarian/Unitarian, could you please give explanation for why are you Unitarian, but can you also discuss the verses that Trinitarians use in order to believe in Trinitarianism?

 

Il just post the following from the Hebrew Scriptures that at least seems to be in favour of non Trinitarian views:

 

Ezekiel 28:2

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

So how would you reconcile the above with God Himself having a human experience?

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The context is speaking about the Ruler of Tyre,  just like Isiah 14 is about the king of Babylon. 

Ezekiel 28

Ezekiel 28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Tyre Thinks It Is Like a God
28 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Lord God says:

“‘You are very proud!
    And you say, “I am a god!
I sit on the seat of gods
    in the middle of the seas.”

“‘But you are a man and not God!
    You only think you are a god.
3 You think you are wiser than Daniel
    and no secret is hidden from you.
4 Through your wisdom and understanding
    you have gotten riches for yourself.
And you put gold and silver
    in your treasuries.
5 Through your great wisdom and trade,
    you have made your riches grow.
And now you are proud
    because of those riches.

6 “‘So this is what the Lord God says:
Tyre, you thought you were like a god.
7 I will bring strangers to fight against you.
    They are most terrible among the nations!
They will pull out their swords
    and use them against the beautiful things your wisdom brought you.
    They will ruin your glory.
8 They will bring you down to the grave.
    You will be like a sailor who died at sea.
9 That person will kill you.
    Will you still say, “I am a god”?
No, he will have you in his power!
    You will see that you are a man, not God!
10 Strangers will treat you like a foreigner and kill you,
    because I gave the command!’”
This is what the Lord God said.

11 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 12 “Son of man, sing this sad song about the king of Tyre. Say to him, ‘This is what the Lord God says:

“‘You were the perfect man—
    so full of wisdom and perfectly handsome.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God.
You had every precious stone—
    rubies, topaz, and diamonds,
    beryls, onyx, and jasper,
    sapphires, turquoise, and emeralds.
And each of these stones was set in gold.
    You were given this beauty on the day you were created.
    God made you strong.
14 You were one of the chosen Cherubs
    who spread your wings over my throne.
I put you on the holy mountain of God.
    You walked among the jewels that sparkled like fire.
15 You were good and honest when I created you,
    but then you became evil.
16 Your business brought you many riches.
    But they also put cruelty inside you, and you sinned.
So I treated you like something unclean
    and threw you off the mountain of God.
You were one of the chosen Cherubs
    who spread your wings over my throne.
But I forced you to leave the jewels
    that sparkled like fire.
17 Your beauty made you proud.
    Your glory ruined your wisdom.
So I threw you down to the ground,
    and now other kings stare at you.
18 You did many wrong things.
You were a very crooked merchant.
    In this way you made the holy places unclean.
So I brought fire from inside you.
    It burned you!
You burned to ashes on the ground.
    Now everyone can see your shame.

19 “‘All the people in other nations
    were shocked about what happened to you.
What happened to you will make people very afraid.
    You are finished!’”

The Message Against Sidon
20 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 21 “Son of man, look toward Sidon and speak for me against that place. 22 Say, ‘This is what the Lord God says:

“‘I am against you, Sidon!
    Your people will learn to respect me.
I will punish Sidon.
    Then people will know that I am the Lord.
Then they will learn that I am holy,
    and they will treat me that way.
23 I will send disease and death to Sidon,
    and many people inside the city will die.
Soldiers outside the city will kill many people.
    Then people will know that I am the Lord!

The Nations Will Stop Laughing at Israel
24 “‘Then the surrounding nations that hate Israel will no longer be like stinging nettles[d] and painful thorns. And they will know that I am the Lord God.’”

25 This is what the Lord God said: “I scattered the people of Israel among other nations, but I will gather the family of Israel together again. Then the nations will know that I am holy, and they will treat me that way. At that time the people of Israel will live in their land—I gave that land to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live safely in the land. They will build houses and plant vineyards. I will punish the nations around them that hated them. Then the people of Israel will live in safety, and they will know that I am the Lord their God.”

[Daniel Marsh]

The last two texts simply mean that God is not fickle like human beings.

I am a Trinitarian from reading the Bible in the cultural context of a Church Body that believes in the Trinity and from studying church history including the Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles. 

It is time for me to go to bed.     I likely, will not have time to post until next week. 

I am guessing you read,  One God & One Lord : Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith 
by John W. Schoenheit (Author), Mark H. Graeser

 

[other one]

I spent a not so little amount of time pondering the trinity myself....    good bad or whatever this is how I see it:

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Are you saying the Son of God has a lesser nature than the Father?

[other one]

5 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Are you saying the Son of God has a lesser nature than the Father?

not now, but when the enemies are dealt with he will be subject to the Father whatever you want to make of that...  and we are told that all things come from the Father, whatever you wish to make of that...    as they are all one in essence and all have the same goals I would not think it really matters.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1 hour ago, other one said:

not now, but when the enemies are dealt with he will be subject to the Father whatever you want to make of that...  and we are told that all things come from the Father, whatever you wish to make of that...    as they are all one in essence and all have the same goals I would not think it really matters.

 

It doesn't really matter,   I have been misreading people's comments lately.    I think the hierarchy in the Godhead is by choice out of Agape.   Just like in Acts 1,  it is the Father who decides when the Second Coming will happen. 

[Butch5]

On 4/29/2020 at 8:41 AM, Ervin P said:

Hi, I suppose I have to work out whether I understand the New Testament teachings to teach a Trinitarian or non Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine.

So, could you please explain why you are Trinitarian(I am assuming pretty much all of you are Trinitarian). But can you also give explanation for the verses used by non Trinitarian believers?

In case you are non Trinitarian/Unitarian, could you please give explanation for why are you Unitarian, but can you also discuss the verses that Trinitarians use in order to believe in Trinitarianism?

 

Il just post the following from the Hebrew Scriptures that at least seems to be in favour of non Trinitarian views:

 

Ezekiel 28:2

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

So how would you reconcile the above with God Himself having a human experience?

Thanks

 

 

Hi Ervin,

 

There is no Trinity mentioned in the Bible. The idea of a three in one God comes from around the 5th century. The first clearly defined evidence of it that I'm aware of is in the Athanasian Creed. The Scriptures tell us there is one God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Ervin,

On 4/29/2020 at 10:41 PM, Ervin P said:

In case you are non Trinitarian/Unitarian, could you please give explanation for why are you Unitarian, but can you also discuss the verses that Trinitarians use in order to believe in Trinitarianism?

I would rather state the basis of my belief in the One God, not three, or three in one.

I believe that there is one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When I consider the Scriptural revelation concerning God I firstly consider Exodus 3:14 where God reveals His Name and I understand this using Tyndale’s translation that God states “I will be” or as he spells it “I wilbe”, not as the KJV “I AM”.

Exodus 3:12–14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

I understand this to teach that the One God the Father will be active in achieving deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, He will become their salvation. This deliverance is typical of the future salvation that would be accomplished in Jesus, the true Passover Lamb, who would take away the sin of the world. The Yahweh Name is incorporated in the Name Jesus, Yah-Oshea, Yah’s Salvation.

Jesus was born by means of the power of God, the Holy Spirit, and as such he is the Son of God, because Mary is his mother, and God the Father is his father. He was born a human.

Matthew 1:18–21 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:28–35 (KJV): 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In the above it states that God will give Jesus the Throne of David. After his death and resurrection, Jesus was exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father in heaven, and we await for his return when Jesus will establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth and sit upon the Throne of David.

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards Trevor

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by TrevorL

[Ervin P]

Now that I have pondered a bit I have come to the conclusion that I do believe that Jesus is an Incarnation of God.

 

 Thanks