How do you explain Trinity or non Trinitarian views

[Justin Adams]

Trinity shows up in the Tanakh. It is not a modern Christian invention. The 'great' theologians just muddied the water for everyone. Read the Tanakh and see where the Spirit and the Son show up right alongside the Father.

[Justin Adams]

16 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Justin Adams,

I appreciate what you have stated and I understand that the view that you present is reasonably popular, and is given as an alternative to the second view that the Judges were called Elohim because they represented God. I accept this second view and I believe that this view coupled with the words of Jesus in John 10:30-36 is an important key to understand the whole subject of the use of the word “Elohim” and God in both the OT and NT. Moses represented God to Pharaoh and the word Elohim is used, and the word “Elohim” is used for the Angels in Psalm 8:5, and in other instances the word “Elohim” is used for the Angels when they acted and spoke on God’s behalf.

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

Read the Hebrew and see. Check out the correct translations as reflected in the Qumran texts. Theology has made this obtuse because the agenda was to dis the LXX in favor of the doctored Masoretic later texts. Couple this with the prevailing antisemitism of some of the early theologians and even some 'fathers' and you have a general miasma of confusion. Modern commentaries (after about 2010) avail themselves of better source material. Most prior commentaries are littered with Augustinian and other doctrines. 'Angelos' is NOT a mere elohim, it is messenger and refers to a disembodied spirit that performs the messaging function. Angel is NOT ontological. The 'angel' of the Lord, I.e. Yeshua is the second person of the Godhead as reflected in may Tanakh verses and Rabbinic writings. Men are never 'elohim'. Poor translations and some deliberate 'modifications' have seen to it that our scriptures are strip-mined of most supernatural content. It is no wonder the Divine Council texts are obscured.

Nowhere ever is mankind called an elohim, though in the later apostolic writings we as believers are called the sons of God. We will judge the ones that fell...

The Divine Council: See what Dr Heiser says here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=povh5cYfCvs

Dr. Heiser is a notable Hebrew scholar and can translate many languages. He is a conservative evangelical and only uses peer review scholarship for his lectures.

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Justin Adams

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Justin,

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Read the Hebrew and see.

Yes, the Judges are called Elohim in Exodus 21:6. My understanding of Exodus 21:6, Psalm 82 and John 10:30-36 is that these are speaking about the Judges who represented God and were required to be faithful in administering the Law. Those in Psalm 82 were unfaithful, and I suggest that Jesus was using Psalm 82 to attempt to correct and even accuse the Sanhedrin in his day who also were attempting to arrest and judge him. Jesus is not fighting a cosmic war, but dealing with real people and real circumstances.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Justin Adams]

29 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Justin,

Yes, the Judges are called Elohim in Exodus 21:6. My understanding of Exodus 21:6, Psalm 82 and John 10:30-36 is that these are speaking about the Judges who represented God and were required to be faithful in administering the Law. Those in Psalm 82 were unfaithful, and I suggest that Jesus was using Psalm 82 to attempt to correct and even accuse the Sanhedrin in his day who also were attempting to arrest and judge him. Jesus is not fighting a cosmic war, but dealing with real people and real circumstances.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Sorry. Incorrect. A contrived theology. No men are elohim until dead and disembodied.

In John 10 Yeshua was proving HE was lord of the council. (and therefore GOD)

 

Exodus 21:6 English Standard Version (ESV)

6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

Laws About Slaves

21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Justin Adams]

13 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Jesus is not fighting a cosmic war

Yeshua has been at the Father's side fighting the cosmic battle since the beginning. It is supernatural and this encompasses our natural and bleeds into it. "As is heaven, so on the earth..." Cosmic Geography. 

The regathering began at Pentecost. The cross stripped the hosts of their mandate and the apostles brought the gospel to them and told them they no longer need to serve their pantheons.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Justin Adams]

11 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

real people and real circumstances

Real people that understood the claims He was making of being Divine and equal with Yahweh.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Justin Adams,

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Sorry. Incorrect. A contrived theology. No men are elohim until dead and disembodied.

I suggest that the Judges are called “Elohim” because they represented God in the Judgements that they were appointed to administer. You have quoted the ESV, but the question is how did they appear before God? God is in heaven, and yet they were told to take their servant to God. Where was this, the Tabernacle, or the Judges, who most probably were located throughout the Land.

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Exodus 21:6 English Standard Version (ESV) 6 then his master shall bring him to God

The following give some indication of how the Judges represented God. God was to be with them in the Judgement.

Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Exodus 22:8–9 (ESV): 8 If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor’s property. 9 For every breach of trust, whether it is for an ox, for a donkey, for a sheep, for a cloak, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before God. The one whom God condemns shall pay double to his neighbor.

Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV):Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.

1 Samuel 2:25 (KJV): If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

Now I have quoted the ESV for Exodus 22:8-9 above, and it shows that God had to make a decision concerning the case of a thief. How did God achieve this, except for the decision of a Judge, who had received the Law, and was required to administer this without partiality? Psalm 82 is not speaking of cosmic things, but is speaking of Judges who failed in this responsibility.

Psalm 82:2–4 (KJV): 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

And Jesus states that Psalm 82:6 is speaking about those who had received the Word of God. In other words they had been placed in a position of authority to administer the Law faithfully, and thus represent God. This is why they had received the title “Elohim” in Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9.

John 10:34–35 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Yeshua has been at the Father's side fighting the cosmic battle since the beginning.

In the cosmic battle are they using atomic warfare and ray guns, like a new episode of Star Wars? I believe that God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth Matthew 11:25.

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Real people that understood the claims He was making of being Divine and equal with Yahweh.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I am glad you distinguish Jesus from Yahweh Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards

Trevor.

[Daniel Marsh]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:07 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings Daniel,

I suggest for a start that the above does NOT understand the use of the word Elohim, usually translated “God”. The Judges were called “Elohim” because they represented God and were appointed by God to judge according to the word of God. The above avoids this obvious teaching.

outstanding, may I use it?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Daniel, 

7 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

outstanding, may I use it?

I appreciate the endorsement, but I will be interested to see if others disagree with what I have presented. Most of it is quoting appropriate Scriptures in their proper context. I suggest that the original article that you posted had evidence that they had seen a similar exposition as I presented and what he said in his article is his arguments against the perspective that Judges were called Elohim. I also suggest that if you accept the view that I presented, then this could have a bearing on the understanding of John 10:30-36 where Jesus denies that he is God and affirms that he is The Son of God. The view presented by your article is the method used to avoid the simple and clear teaching of John 10:30-36.

Another portion of the article is attached, and I suggest that not only does he not understand the use of the Hebrew word Elohim as applied to the Judges, he is also incorrect in his explanation of the use of the word Elohim applied to the Angels. I have deleted a few of the item numbers below, and hence the numbering is different.

On 5/9/2020 at 12:04 AM, Daniel Marsh said:

• Are angels gods?
  1. Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
  2. Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
     1. Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 1:8, 1:16, 1:26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
     2. Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels.
  3. Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshiped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13.
• Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.

I will not fully expound this as yet, but simply state that he is making the same mistake as he did with the Judges. The Judges were NOT gods, and neither are the Angels gods. But as with the Judges, the word Elohim IS USED for the Angels in Psalm 8:5 and again they are NOT gods, but represent God. All told there are a number of errors in this article above that you have initially endorsed.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ervin P,

On 5/8/2020 at 4:33 PM, Ervin P said:

^{John 8:57:58
57} Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

I suggest that the expression in Greek “I am” is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The same expression in John 8:58 translated as “I AM” is the same Greek expression in John 8:24,28 translated in the KJV as “I am he”.

John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The second occurrence above clearly shows that Jesus was not claiming to be Deity, and throughout here he also calls himself “the Son of man”.

To remove some of the difficulty or ambiguity regarding this Greek expression, this same expression is used by the blind man showing that the English addition of “he” helps in understanding the Greek.

John 9:8–11 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

I previously posted Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14 and this shows that there is no direct connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

On 5/7/2020 at 9:52 PM, TrevorL said:

I believe that there is one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When I consider the Scriptural revelation concerning God I firstly consider Exodus 3:14 where God reveals His Name and I understand this using Tyndale’s translation that God states “I will be” or as he spells it “I wilbe”, not as the KJV “I AM”.

Exodus 3:12–14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards Trevor.