An Awkward Moment in the Pre-tribulationists’ Honeymoon...

[NonProfitProphet]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Part of following Christ includes sacrificing unsanctified familial attachments:

Mat 10:34-39  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35)  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (36)  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Do you really think this means we are to kill them? The pre-trib doctrine says we will return as an army to kill all the unsaved to avenge God. 

[NonProfitProphet]

5 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

...the "point" you are presenting does not have any Biblical authority...

Thank you- that was my point, that the pre-trib narrative has no biblical authority. My presentation was an accumulation of pre-tribber doctrinal beliefs and a summery that’s begs the question, “Is there any biblical support for this?” The answer is obviously “No!” 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, NonProfitProphet said:

Again, you misunderstood what I wrote... I am not making my own observations, I am “recapping” the pre-trib rapture doctrine. But yes, we agree that it has no biblical merit. Thank you.

Your "recap" is wrong. Perhaps you should talk to more "pre-Tribbers."

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, NonProfitProphet said:

Do you really think this means we are to kill them? The pre-trib doctrine says we will return as an army to kill all the unsaved to avenge God. 

What does the Bible say? The devil's instruments must share in the devil's punishment.

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Regardless of pretrib, midtrib, postrib, or pantrib positions, timelines and arguments, the conflict between God and His enemies supersedes all earthly affections, alignments, and affiliations, and the saints of God no longer have flesh and blood relatives once they are in heaven as God's armies, but are sanctified beyond the taint of such things, so that they are totally and utterly integrated into Christ to do whatsoever He wills. This is the true faith of the saints of the narrow way. 

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11-14  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12)  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13)  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14)  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 2:09 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

This is what I’ve been able to understand of the pre-trib rapture movement:

1. The church is the bride, 

2. The church will be raptured to circumvent being a victim to the tribulation AND a witness of God's wrath,

3. The church/bride is made clean and pure and is married to Christ,

4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him...

    A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us.

    B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean.

Again, this is based on what pre-tribbers say the scripture teaches- the words I’ve used may seem a bit harsh, but are not contradictory to the pre-trib doctrine.

Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

Hi NonprofitProphet,

Yes that is all against scripture and quite wrong. Silly even. Now you may be surprised to hear that I am a pre-tribber BUT do not believe that version that has been `sold` to people for decades. So what have I been taught and see from God`s word. (And I know others here on Worthy believe this also.) 

1. The Church is the Body of Christ, (Eph. 1: 23) while Israel is described as the `bride,` (Isa. 54) and also the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 2) OT saints, (Heb. 11: 16)

2. The Church will be raptured when it is mature in the knowledge of Christ, (Eph. 4: 13) & the time for the first restoration of rulership in God`s kingdom. (Acts 3: 20 & 21) 

3. The Church is righteous for it is His Body. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

4. The armies which come with the Lord at the end of the trib, is the angelic armies, (Matt. 25: 31) They are holy and pure angels. (eg. Rev.15: 6) 

Any questions?

BTW very glad you have pointed out the horrendous errors of that false, demonic doctrine.

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

4. The armies which come with the Lord at the end of the trib, is the angelic armies, (Matt. 25: 31) They are holy and pure angels. (eg. Rev.15: 6) 

Whether the Revelation 19:14 white linen clad armies of heaven consist solely of angels is debatable:

Important Points to Note:

1. The 144 thousand follow the Lamb wherever He goes, even going into battle with Him, as per Revelation 17:14 .

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2. The 7 angels of Revelation 15:6 are not the only heavenly beings to be clothed in white, and white linen is not reserved for them alone as per Revelation 19:8 . 

Rev 3:4-5  You have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. (5)  He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 6:9-11  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10)  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (11)  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 15:6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Rev 19:7-8  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. (8)  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Behold]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

 

Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

Here is what the "bible" teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Its a sad reality that we can't make our family Trust Christ.  Its a sad fact that we can't make our friends and neighbors come to the Cross and be relieved of the Judgment due all Christ Rejectors.   

John 3:36 "

36 ""ALL that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on them all".

Yes, Its a horrible knowledge that hell is real and the lake of fire is not a myth.

And that is why God told us to GO and TELL THEM THE GOSPEL.

Its so we can lead them from that eternity..

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

This is what I’ve been able to understand of the pre-trib rapture movement:

1. The church is the bride, 

You almost got something Right, the Church BECOMES the Bride.

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

2. The church will be raptured to circumvent being a victim to the tribulation AND a witness of God's wrath,

 

Wrong, we are Raptured because our JOB/Mission on earth is finished. God could PROTECT US Supernaturally, but why should He, our MISSION is finished, we have taken the Gospel to the end of the world just like Matt. 24:14 says. We have work to do that is not on earth during Jesus 1000 year reign, we know that because in Rev. 20:4 it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that only those who refused the Mark of the Beast will live and reign with Jesus on earth for 1000 years. 

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

3. The church/bride is made clean and pure and is married to Christ,

 

By the Sacrificial Blood of the Lamb.

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him...

    A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us.

    B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean.

Wrong, Jesus SPEAKS VICTORY, and those who are EVIL need to be DESTROYED. Whoever they are. If you love those types that's on you. 

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

Again, this is based on what pre-tribbers say the scripture teaches- the words I’ve used may seem a bit harsh, but are not contradictory to the pre-trib doctrine.

Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

There will be MANY PEOPLE who are Saved AFTER the Rapture, so you guys just make error after error. 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Whether the Revelation 19:14 white linen clad armies of heaven consist solely of angels is debatable:

 

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Hi Michael,

I agree that many have `white robes` etc as written in God`s word. And the 144,000 who `follow,` are obedient and not run around the universe etc following after Jesus. It is a picture of their obedience.

Now let us look at who Jesus actually says comes back with Him as His army.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man .....comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the HOLY ANGELS.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Michael,

I agree that many have `white robes` etc as written in God`s word. And the 144,000 who `follow,` are obedient and not run around the universe etc following after Jesus. It is a picture of their obedience.

Now let us look at who Jesus actually says comes back with Him as His army.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man .....comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the HOLY ANGELS.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

Yes, Marilyn, I appreciate your point and I have the holy angels featuring much as you do, but include the redeemed, saints of God among them.  Several commentators contest the view that the armies of heaven are made up solely of the angels, or indeed of angels at all, and whilst I post their comments it does not necessarily mean I agree totally with all they say but it does show that there is some variance of opinion: ( We Note: It is the Word of God mounted on a white horse that smites the nations and slays the antichrist armies with the sharp sword that proceeds from His mouth Revelation 19:21, and this not apart from those who believe in the Word of God and live according to it.) 

Albert Barnes on Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him - The heavenly hosts; particularly, it would seem, the redeemed, as there would be some incongruity in representing the angels as riding in this manner. Doubtless the original of this picture is Isa_63:3; “I have trodden the wine-press alone, and of the people there was none with me.” These hosts of the redeemed on white horses accompany him to be witnesses of his victory, and to participate in the joy of the triumph, not to engage in the work of blood.
Upon white horses - Emblems of triumph or victory. See the notes on Rev_6:2.
Clothed in fine linen, white and clean - The usual raiment of those who are in heaven, as everywhere represented in this book. See Rev_3:4-5; Rev_4:4; Rev_7:9, Rev_7:13; Rev_15:6.

John Gill on Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven,.... Not the angels, though they are God's host, and are the armies of the heavens; they are in heaven, and dwell there, and follow Christ, attend upon him, and minister to him, and have been sometimes represented by horses and horsemen, 2Ki_2:11 and they are pure and holy creatures, and will come with Christ to judgment: but this vision refers not to the day of judgment; and besides, the saints are meant, as appears by their habit, for the fine linen, white and clean, is the righteousness of the saints, Rev_19:8 and the righteousness of angels and saints is not the same. Moreover, these are the same company described in Rev_17:14. The saints are in a state of warfare, have many enemies to fight with, sin, Satan, and the world; they are enlisted as volunteers under Christ, the Captain of salvation; they are provided with the whole armour of God, and are very numerous, and always more than conquerors through Christ: these are described by the place where they were, "in heaven"; not being glorified saints in heaven; with these indeed Christ will come to judgment, even with all his saints with him; but members of the church militant, said to be in heaven, because that is often called the kingdom of heaven; and because their names are written in heaven, and they are of heavenly extract; they are born from above, and are partakers of the heavenly calling; they belong to heaven, they are citizens of it, and are pressing on to it.

Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown on Revelation 19:14

the armies ... in heaven — Compare “the horse bridles,” Rev_14:20. The glorified saints whom God “will bring with” Christ at His advent; compare Rev_17:14, “they that are with Him, called, chosen, faithful”; as also “His mighty angels.”

Matthew Henry on Revelation 19:14

II. The army which he commands (Rev_19:14), a very large one, made up of many armies; angels and saints followed his conduct, and resembled him in their equipage, and in their armour of purity and righteousness - chosen, and called, and faithful.