Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Smalcald]

Indeed.

But it is an important topic. I think that it is very important to give Christians the joy and security that comes from true faith, to let them have that eternal peace in the Lord, without worry, without continually thinking they are going to hell because they don't feel forgiven.

On the other side it is important to put the sin of the unrepentant in their face, for if they don't repent of their ways they are indeed without faith and doomed. It does not help that person to have a cheap intellectual feeling of security all of the while not having true faith.

[sail2awe]

Amo 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Is it not written that the Lord came to save sinners, and in that, it is by "the faith of Him", not the faith of sinners.

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

More tolerable? Is not to perish and to be destroyed the ultimate punishment. This then suggests that they of that city have not been judged to perish utterly, as there is this statement giving sway to something other than their end being that of eternal punishing or eternal death. Whatever their judgment is to be, there is something far worse, indicating the Hebrew understanding of judgement is not one of eternal punishing coming from and eternal God who is very love itself.

It seems to me, a noteworthy and remarkable feature of the apostles and prohetic writings only speak about hell when speaking of Israel. They never write of hell being applied to non Jews. Has this been noted and given it's due consideration? that the apostle of the gentiles never speaks of hell? Well, he does use the word 'hell' once, but since it is properly translated 'grave', so one might miss it:

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

That is the one place the apostle to the gentiles uses the word hell, and if I am in this company of victory, then the author and the finisher of my faith has not labored in vain. Surely, my Salvation rests in the Lord and not upon any works or lack of works which might come from me, for it is written

Psa 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Can we trust the faithful stewards who the Holy Spirit deemed worthy to send forth the Salvation message of God, that He came to save sinners, and will remember our sin no more? Is it better to trust men who say differently?

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Surely if in our defense, the mediator who is standing where the prosecutor would normally stand is more than able to deliever that which He came to do, died, risen, sending forth the word of Salvation to all nations, then it is not a matter of Salvation being a gift from God, but a matter of if we believe it.

Surely, when God sends something forth, it shall come to pass. This being so, then perhaps it is a lack of understanding which is natural to mankind which is the problem, and one in which the omnipotent grace and knowledge of God shall have considered before the foundation of the world

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[ruah brit]

Well, clearly, if we can be "re-lost" after we're saved, then the Lord Jesus really didn't save us from ANYTHING the first time around! We weren't saved from sin's devastation....we weren't saved from self & the devil....and we sure wrren't saved from hell because NOW we're heading there "again"!!

If believers are indeed "hid in the hollow of His hand," and if Christ is indeed in God, then wouldn't Jesus Himself have to "become lost" too since we're shown in Holy Writ to be "in Him"?! Very interesting.

"Sealed until the day of redemption" is certainly where salvation is all at!

Thank You, Lord Jesus!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Providing you were not saved into a deluded gospel and because of vanity, inadvertently place yourself in scripture where you don’t yet belong. Being worthy is a degree of acceptance.

2Pe 2

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage

Lu 20

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

Re 3

4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy

Denise

[Pilgrim7]

Amen Denise,

This New Gospel that is being preached leads to presumptive faith, not living, saving faith. Yet even those who at one time have saving faith can fall away and depart from the faith. They don't give up faith altogether, but their faith slips, dies and all that is left is a hollow presumptive belief that God owes them salvation because the believe certain words and prayed a certain prayer.

Not only can one fall away, but if he hardens his heart, it will become imposible to repent.

Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (This definitely refers to saved people, for God only gives His Spirit to those who He saves)

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. (here the word of God answers the question being debated here)

Some will depart from Living faith through lying spirits.

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (If some will depart from the faith, then they will lose salvation, for we are justified by faith)4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Here the faith of some will be overthrown.

2Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (Here God tells us that the faith of some can be overthrown)2:19 . Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (This is the real Gospel, Living faith, man has a work to do through the Holy Spirit, without this we have another gospel that Paul warned about)

Here is the work of man, since he now has the Spirit of holiness dwelling within, to purify himself even as He, Christ, is pure.

Heb 12:1 . Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (this is our work, because we have dwelling within and have all we need to overcome sin.)

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

You see we are in the time when many depart from the faith. A new Gospel is being preached that negates the words of Jesus, 'narrow is the way and few there be that find it. The churches have thrown the gates wide open and sinners are coming in without repentance, without giving up sin. This is the way that leads to destruction. Just watch the replies to this post. They will use verses that talk about being justified, forgiven, without works to negate all of this truth of the fight of faith, the process of Sanctification. The false Gospel uses the 'word' to negate any truth that makes them feel uncomfortable. Yet one scripture does not negate another scripture. Another favorite reply is to say that the writer was only talking to the Jews. You see they don't even realize that there is neither Jew not Greek, that God is no respecter of persons, that He has only one plan, one salvation open to all who repent and believe.

God Bless You,

Dennis

[Remnant]

The Holy Spirit is never given to anyone who disobeys the Lord. Only those who obey the Lord receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. Obey what? The commandments... in essence, no one breaking the commandments is in fellowship with christ. Those born of the Holy spirit commit no sin which means if we wiilingly disregarding the law of god then we are blaspheming the name of god. Romans 2:4.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The holy spirit must be asked by us...earnestly!!

at every baptism the holy spirit is given as the early rain to give us the power to be truly christlike....what we allow him to change he will; but just like jesus and god the father he will not always strive with mankind...hence ....the flood....

[Gerioke]

It's faith in Jesus that brings salvation. You either have it or you don't. If you don't have it, try to acquire it. If you have it make sure you keep it. I have faith but I hate my self as a human being. If I can't love myself then how do I love others?

I'm rather confused now.

thanx

[Salt]

Not only can one fall away, but if he hardens his heart, it will become imposible to repent.

Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (This definitely refers to saved people, for God only gives His Spirit to those who He saves)

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. (here the word of God answers the question being debated here)

Over the years that scripture always stuck out to me as not being consistant with other scriptures such as the Prodigal son returning and the patterns of Israels backslidding.

Here is the same scripture from the Complete Jewish Bible:

Heb 6:4-6 For when people have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh, and tasted the goodness of God's Word and the powers of the 'olam haba - and then have fallen away - it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.

The CJB version has meaning that leaves the door open for a backslidder to return. Here is another related verse:

Jer 2:19 KJV Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Link: Hebrews 6 - CJB (at CrossWalk)

Edited September 13, 2005 by Salt

[Pilgrim7]

Gerioke,

You don't have to love yourself. You are a sinner as I am so there's nothing to love. Self has nothing to do with it. As a sinner, we can't love God or our neighbor because of our self love. God must change us, convert us, and give us a new heart. When you are converted by faith, self is crucified for it is full of sin. You are now dead, crucified with Christ, dead to self and Christ lives within, so you are now a new creature. It is now no longer you, self, who lives but Christ living in you. The love of God is shed abroad in your heart and You now Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor instead of or as you used to love self when you were a sinner. It is the gift of God through faith. Now we allow Christ to live out His life of love through us.

1Pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

6:6 Knowing this, that our old man (self) is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Self love is the dominant characteristic of the sinner. Humilty and repentence is the renouncing of self and self love, the emptying of the cup so God can fill it with himself. Jesus said if we don't hate our lives, we won't find eternal life. Today we have a false Gospel of self love, self absorption and self esteem.

God bless you brother,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Salt,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree that backsliders can repent and return. I quoted the verse to show that it is possible to not return and thus lose Salvation. I see Hebrews 6 as a warning that known sin hardens the heart and if not repented of, leads to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in which the Holy Spirit is withdrawn and there is now no possibility of repentence.

God bless,

Dennis

[Guest ephesian]

I come to this board almost daily to read the posts. I pretty much keep silent and just listen in fear that I might receive some sort of personal attack for feeling the way that I do if I were to present it. I am a member of another online fellowship called christians in recovery and I posted the following thoughts in the daily recovery thought forum on the 12th. I decided this morning to post my thoughts here in hope that maybe somebody might relate to how it feels to believe in one's heart of hearts that he has fallen to the point of no return. It is a lonely place to be. I can tell you this from experience.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Without faith, it is impossible to please God; for to come to God, one must first believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

(Hebrews 11:6)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What an epiphone it is to come to the realization that there truly is a God who is concerned with the affairs of men. I can't remember when I came to believe that there was a God, nor can I remember when I came to believe that there was a God who could restore me to sanity. I suppose I could have been born with this knowledge. Neither of these required a whole lot of faith on my part. The greatest leap of faith for me was believing that God would restore me to sanity. I guess, one of the most powerful lies that satan had convinced me of was that I had gone past the point of no return. I had no problem believing in God; I just didn't think that God believed in me.

I have listened to so many lectures declaring that there is a place that one can fall to which there is no chance of returning. A place that the Holy Spirit withdraws from that individual never to return. Oh, what a lonely place this must be. A place that is so far from God that He can't possibly reach out to this individual.

I truly wonder if those with this view-point have any idea what is like to know this kind of desperation, to believe in one's heart of hearts that I have fallen so far that not even God can reach me. Do they understand what it's like to think that even if he could, he wouldn't. I truly doubt that they do or they would not perpetuate this opinion which has no true merit but to steal away the only thing of any value that many of us have left: hope

Where can I go from your Spirit?

Where can I flee from your presence?

If I go up to the heavens, you are there;

if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

If I rise on the wings of the dawn,

if I settle on the far side of the sea,

even there your hand will guide me,

your right hand will hold me fast.

------------------(Psalms 139:7-10)--------------------------------------------------------

I believe that this is why we trust and rely upon each other so much, for if you are like myself, you know what it is to feel such desperation and loneliness in your heart. Maybe, you are feeling this way at this very moment. As the psalmist declared, there is no place that is too far for God to reach you. God sees your pain. Don't believe the devil's lies any longer. God is waiting for you to turn to him right this very second. Even if I made my bed in hell, He would tear the place apart.

Come home, come home, ye who are weary, come home.

--------------------

"For by grace are you saved through faith,"

the ephesian