Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Remnant]

Was Judas saved..just because he hung around the Lord? He knew what it required to be saved and he chose to ignore it. God gives us free will....Free to choose him and live or the devil and sin and death.

Perhaps you have not read Ezekiel 18. See that you do.

And for the those who are biblephobia....

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

Eze 18:11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

Eze 18:12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

Eze 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

Eze 18:15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Pay close to what the Lord is saying the last two verses. There is a definite choice to be made. Will you choose to be saved or lost? It is up to each of us to choose our destiny. God will never push us to decide....He draws us with his lovingkindness. He hopes that you will choose HIM!! Choose wisely!!

[dgolvach]

If you can be saved and then lose it, how many times can you yo-yo back and forth? Are there any Biblical references to someone who was saved, lossed then saved again?

Dan

[Smalcald]

If you can be saved and then lose it, how many times can you yo-yo back and forth? Are there any Biblical references to someone who was saved, lossed then saved again?

Dan

I don't know of any scriptural references to people who were truly saved then went back and forth so to speak. But for me that is not the point. I think the back and forth is simply a sign that there were deeper problems to start with. But you know, one could look at Peter, He denied He even knew Christ, and this was after He was the one who had proclaimed that Christ was indeed the Son of God, the Savior.

I do know that God is standing at the gate until the moment we die, regardless of how many times we have sinned, how many times we have rejected His grace, how many times we have gone back and forth, to welcome us into His kingdom. He never cuts us off as long as we draw breath. But it is appointed once for a man to die, and once to face judgement.

Mark

Right faith is not a verb; no action is needed to be saved, as it is a gift. Of course if you are really saved works will flow from you; they are simply outward evidence of that gift.

[Pilgrim7]

The faith that procures salvation can be lost, given up, departed from, can die. One with faith has is totally convinced and dependent upon God and His Word. He can be deceived as to the word of God and thus God himself. There is no need of a spiritual war if one cannot lose their faith. There is no reason for the devil to wage war against the saved. What would be the point. The people without real faith don't need to be fought, for they are already lost. The people with real faith don't need to be attacked because they can't lose it. What's the point. No need for any warnings for the devil can't effect anything. We can just throw out the Bible for those with real faith will do the works anyway.

No need for these warnings for real faith can't fail:

LUKE 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art

converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Why instruct one to stand fast, with real faith to stand fast?

1COR 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

Here one with all faith being warned that he must have love.

1COR 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (Godly love), I am nothing.

Here some depart from the faith being deceived by the Devil:

1TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Here some err from the faith and fait to fight the fight of faith:

1TIM 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (Why the warning for Timothy, surely he had real faith)

6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Men may draw back from real faith:

HEB 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul

[Smalcald]

Dennis do you see salvation as a process, a life long journey, versus a one time event in a believers life? This would be more along the lines of some of what Paul is talking about in running the race with endurance to actually win the race, or of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, etc.

For example I have no date of the beginning of my faith, separating when I did not believe and when I did believe, no emotional experience of coming to Christ which I can pinpoint as a time and date. I do have however significant times of growth, and significant times of decline, which I can remember. Was I saved in my times of decline, personally I doubt it, but I don't know, and at this point it does not matter to me. I think it is just a different way of looking at things.

[EricH]

Dennis do you see salvation as a process, a life long journey, versus a one time event in a believers life? This would be more along the lines of some of what Paul is talking about in running the race with endurance to actually win the race, or of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, etc.

For example I have no date of the beginning of my faith, separating when I did not believe and when I did believe, no emotional experience of coming to Christ which I can pinpoint as a time and date. I do have however significant times of growth, and significant times of decline, which I can remember. Was I saved in my times of decline, personally I doubt it, but I don't know, and at this point it does not matter to me. I think it is just a different way of looking at things.

Smal,

I see it as both. There is a now and not yet element to our faith. The now refers to our legal standing before God. At the moment of salvation we are justified. From God's perspective is is "just as if" we never had sinned.

But, for the rest of rour lives we will be working out the implications of our salvation. Namely, we undergo the sanctification process whereby we are made more and more into the likeness of Jesus.

Finally, our salvation will be culminated Once the kingdom if fully established and we receive our resurrection bodies. The full implications of the salvation that we have already received will be experienced by us. All consequences of sin will be removed at that time

HTH

Love in Christ

Eric

[Pilgrim7]

Smalcald,

Yes I see it as a process because that is what Scripture says. If Scripture says to 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling', then that is truth. If it says to 'make your calling and election sure' then that means it is a process that can go either way based on the actions of the one justified. Justification is the beginning of the process. This is procurred by faith. This is the beginning of faith, not a mature faith, but a baby faith. Faith must grow and mature which is the choice of the believer. He can exercise his faith and 'go on to the fulness of Christ', or he can not. It is an act of the will. He can add to his faith like God directs in Peter or he can not. It it up to the will of the believer. One must finish the course, or be sanctified in order to be glorified and taken to heaven.

God bless you in your journey to God. You seem like a sincere seeker after truth. It is dangerous to think that real faith cannot be lost. It leads to presumption for the carnal nature is always there to deceive one. This is why we are told to 'examine ourselves whether we be in faith', to make sure that it is alive and growing.

Good post EricH. Are you the one from 'Tree of Life'?

God bless and keep your souls,

Dennis

[RGR]

Well I think I can sum up the whole matter quite nicely:

You can believe in OSAS but we need to live our lives as if it isn't true and never take salvation for granted! (and I'm not saying OSAS'ers do that!)

[felix]

Hello brothers and sisters.

It seems that this topic has been covered quite throughly. Maybe what I will be adding here can shed more light to our spiritual walk. I have been a Christian since 1998. However all I knew was that Jesus was my Lord and Savior. I was your "typical" Christian: read bible and prayed daily; went to church on sundays (occasionally). But deep in my heart I wanted nothing but the ultimate truth. I seeked God fervently. During this time however, I felt something inside me was not satisfied. Even though I was a "Christian" something was wrong.

In December of 2004, the Lord gave me an experience that changed something inside: I touched my spirit. This changed that feeling I had inside me. I did not feel death in me anymore but life. It was there where I truly Loved the Lord. Before this time I did not know I had a spirit...I thought it was the same thing as the soul. But the bible is so clear that it is not the same thing...that in fact we are a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Heb 4:12) and that the Spirit of God dwells in OUR spirit (also abundantly clear in the bible). God had answered the prayer that I had prayed about a month ago: "Lord, I want to be a true worshipper. I want to be a worshipper you seek. I want to worship you in spirit and in truth. But, Lord, I do not know what the spirit is or what it means. I know you will show me." This I did after reading John 4:23-24. The true worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

ANYWAYS....before that event I always believed that we were "once saved always saved". However, after knowing my spirit and being lead by the Holy Spirit, I did away with that doctrine.

Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrine inspired from man and NOT the Holy Spirit. Please hear this out. I grew up in Baptist churches and it was about in January of 2005 (this year) where I encountered a website where it said that the OSAS doctrine was a doctrine from Hell. Growing up with this doctrine, I was of course in a state of confusion. Since I had experienced many prophetic things from this site and my experiences confirmed the site as well...I wasn't sure what to believe: was the site right about my experiences but wrong about what I believed??? God knew that I wanted to know the truth. Immediately I opened the bible and 1 John 3:6 was shown to me. 1 John 3:6 "Everyone who abides in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him." After praying and meditating on this verse (and thinking about it now), I understood exactly what was happening...

First, the reason OSAS appeared was that man recognized that after they accepted Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior they still sinned. Brothers and Sisters...PAY CLOSE ATTENTION HERE! When we know we have sinned we do one of two things:

1) We become ashamed and we try to hide it from God and ourselves. We will find some way to justify it or we will simply make up some excuse (or lie) that makes the sin "ok".

2) We go before God and openly confess our sins to Him. We fellowship with the Lord and we cleanse ourselves with the blood of Christ giving thanks to the sacrifice of the Lamb.

Once Saved Always Saved was born out of the man who could not confess his sins to the Lord. It was born out of the man who did #1. God clearly tells us the following:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sin, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from every sin.

This is what God wants us to do when we have sinned and failed Him. Our spiritual robes get dirty everyday just like our clothes. We need to wash in the blood of the lamb everyday. That is why Revelation 22:14 says "Blessed are those who WASH (present tense) their robes that they may have right ot the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city." "WASH" here is in the present tense. Which means blessed are those who wash...not who have washed (past tense).

"Once Saved Always Saved" will not draw us to do this. The man who sins will become complacent in thinking that since he's Once Saved...he's ALWAYS saved. The man then gets deeper and deeper into this sin. The man then gets further seperated from God. He is no longer walking in the light, fellowshipping with the Lord or getting cleansed by the blood. Even if this man is a great preacher, on that day Jesus will say to this man "Depart from me, I never knew you." Even if this man prophesied and did great works of power in the Name of Jesus, Jesus will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." By the OSAS doctrine this man believes he is still in God when he is in fact far from God.

1 John 3:6

Everyone who abides in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.

1 John 3:9

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not PRACTICE sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God.

The man's life is now in Sin and not in God. The man is cut off from the tree. A branch cut off from the tree withers and dies. So the man that does not wash in the blood of Christ will NOT have right to the tree of life. He will experience darkness and death.

I am not saying that all Christians who believe in this OSAS doctrine are in this condition. But OSAS is a doctrine Satan is using powerfully against the Church. Many will fall. It should not be tolerated. People defending OSAS will talk about grace and salvation by faith and not works. OSAS had nothing to do with these things....it was born out of brothers and sisters who could not face God in their sin so they used this as a way out of it. Without OSAS we are still under grace and salvation by faith. You see...all we have to do is CONFESS!!! It's so easy. We need to be humble before God and confess our sins to Him. And give thanks to the blood of the lamb. We should all wash our robes daily and not be complacent with OSAS.

If you have hidden a secret sin from God now is the time to wash in the blood of Christ. Confess your sin to God and thank Him for the blood of Christ.

Edited October 27, 2005 by felix

[Guest PilgrimSteve]

For those who believe a Christian can lose their salvation. What happens to the new creation, the part of man which is born of the seed of God which is incorruptible, assuming a Christian loses His salvation?

1Pe 1:23