Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Kabowd]

We have read many scriptures stating that god will never leave nor forsake us. Yet we find that when I decide that I want sin more than God I am rejected because I first rejected him. If I am striving to do his will then of course he is always with me.

Again, for the record, I am not, nor have ever been, of the OSAS belief. The above statement is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. Are you a parent? I am and let me tell you something, I am not going to disown my child because he's going to "test the waters" and see what he can get by with. I am still going to love him and I will be waiting for him with open arms when he makes enough of a mess of his life that he realizes that I was right! I don't reject him. I may leave him alone (if he was older) to make some mistakes to prove a point, but I'm not going to reject him!

I know that something like this is hard to swallow, but it is true:

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Whether a Christian or a sinner we all fall under these scriptures.

Do you read all scripture in a vacuum like that? Tell me, was it Abraham's obedience to God that saved him? What about Noah, was it his obedience in building the ark which saved him also? If God discipline's His own (according to Hebrews 12), how then can disobedience lead to disownership?

[Guest shiloh357]

We have read many scriptures stating that god will never leave nor forsake us. Yet we find that when I decide that I want sin more than God I am rejected because I first rejected him. If I am striving to do his will then of course he is always with me.

Again, for the record, I am not, nor have ever been, of the OSAS belief. The above statement is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. Are you a parent? I am and let me tell you something, I am not going to disown my child because he's going to "test the waters" and see what he can get by with. I am still going to love him and I will be waiting for him with open arms when he makes enough of a mess of his life that he realizes that I was right! I don't reject him. I may leave him alone (if he was older) to make some mistakes to prove a point, but I'm not going to reject him!

I know that something like this is hard to swallow, but it is true:

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Whether a Christian or a sinner we all fall under these scriptures.

You are trying to say that Christians can become "children of disobedience." That is pure nonsense. The "children of disobedience" are those who commit these sins without remorse, without repentance, and with no fear of the judgement of God.

In the day in which this passage was written, such sins, even the more sexually explicit ones, were committed much more publicly than even today. In Greece, homosexuality was actually preferred among men so much so, that laws had to be passed to force men to marry women in order that the nation would not cease to exist!

It would have not been uncommon in those days even in the region where Ephesus was located in Turkey, for immorality to be rampant and for the believers to be deceived into thinking that these things are not really sins, but merely a normal part of human existence. Paul did not want them to be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, etc. were trifling issues. Those people, those deceivers, have no part in the Kingdom of God, and Paul was making it clear that the congregation should not be deceived by them. He was not saying, "if you do this, your damned." Paul's concern was not that they might think that they could live in sin with impunity, and that God would not care. Paul's concern is that they would be deceived into thinking that these things were not sins at all, but rather that they were natural things, and perfectly acceptable for a believer to engage in. He was trying to cut the deceivers off at the pass, so to speak.

One other thing... the letters of Paul to the Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians and Philemon were written when Paul was a prisoner in Rome. He foresaw false teachers and deceivers coming into the Church and drawing away believers into wrong ideas and wrong lifestyles. These letters are written in such a manner that we can see Paul as one who making sure that he covers the most important issues. It is the last they will hear from him. He wants this last communication to contain the most vital and important things he could think to say.

[Smalcald]

What do we need to do? What does the Bible say we need to do? By "walking it out," I mean living out what God commands. I am talking about taking what the Bible says we are to do, and do it. Not because we are trying to hold on to salvation, but because these things are what we desire to do. The Christian life is not a grocery list of commands to follow, it is living, relationship with our Heavenly Father. The works we do, we do naturally. Where true Christians are concerned, these things flow out of us like water. But in the case of relgionists, everyday is just "do, do, do." Well at least until they get tired of "doing" all the time and decide that it is not worth it and go live in sin. But they were not Christians anyway, so that should not come as any surprise.

Could you please elaborate on the first section highlighted in red andwhat happens to a Christian when he gets tired of "doing" and gives up?

Well, that's just it. When it is a natural product of you are in Christ, you don't get tired and just give up, any more than you get tired of breathing. Its different than the religionist who is working to support his facade. That is why I make that distinction. That does not mean that we don't get weary at times, but it is different than someone who just chucks it all and decides one morning to live in sin. A true Christian, according to Scripture, does not do that. We may fall in times of weakness and discouragement, but that is when grace finds its highest value; not as a license to sin, but as the ever present source of God's mercy.

I agree with this statement. But do the religionists believe they are saved? I think that they do, so the whole thing comes down to semantics. I think you would say that if one loses faith, they never really had true saving faith in the fist place, so by definition a true believer cannot lose their faith, which of course is why we call them a true believer. It is circular. It is obvious, I think you would agree, that scripture does include several examples of people being deceived about their own faith, about thinking they were saved, and yet were far from God their names not included in the Book of Life.

However I totally agree with you, any attempt to think that our obedience through love of what the Lord has already done for us, our showing gratitude for what has already been done, any idea that this saves us is false and very dangerous for a Christian. I don't understand how anybody could read Galatians and believe that works have anything to do with grace or our salvation.

"It would have not been uncommon in those days even in the region where Ephesus was located in Turkey, for immorality to be rampant and for the believers to be deceived into thinking that these things are not really sins, but merely a normal part of human existence. Paul did not want them to be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, etc. were trifling issues."

Kind of a side topic, but that sounds very familiar with our current time.

[RGR]

It's interesting how many of these scritpures Shiloh says that they don't apply to us. It's always somebody else,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You are trying to say that Christians can become "children of disobedience." That is pure nonsense. The "children of disobedience" are those who commit these sins without remorse, without repentance, and with no fear of the judgement of God.

Under your understandin you are saying that Christians can't or won't committ these sins. You also state that if they do then they were never Christians anyway.

This is a justification to support the doctrine of OSAS.

Again, you are misrepresenting what Shiloh has said! He said if someone habitually, willingly lives in that sin without remorse! He didn't say one misdeed made you not a Christian! All have fallen short of the glory of God!

You justify away the fact that in Revelations chapters 1-3 these churches are warned to repent or God will leave them. I don't know what bible you are reading from but nowhere in the NT will you find preachers referred to as angels. You are reading into those verses to support your doctrine.

Actually I have seen that and I don't believe it was Baptists doctrinally/OSAS either.

In the day in which this passage was written, such sins, even the more sexually explicit ones, were committed much more publicly than even today. In Greece, homosexuality was actually preferred among men so much so, that laws had to be passed to force men to marry women in order that the nation would not cease to exist!

The world in its sinful state is no different than the time the bible was written even all the way back to Noah.

And this has what to do with the subject? I have to disagree with you though seeing as how in most cases if someone were committing a lude act in public, they would be restrained. I don't know for how long this is going to go on being the norm but for now, no, we are not as bad.

One other thing... the letters of Paul to the Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians and Philemon were written when Paul was a prisoner in Rome. He foresaw false teachers and deceivers coming into the Church and drawing away believers into wrong ideas and wrong lifestyles. These letters are written in such a manner that we can see Paul as one who making sure that he covers the most important issues. It is the last they will hear from him. He wants this last communication to contain the most vital and important things he could think to say.

This paragraph said nothing at all.

If the bible, as you put it, was written to all of them and/or for all of them in the time the letters were written, then why do we have it in front of us today? You are taking just the love of Christ, faith, and grace out of the bible and saying that the rest apply to only those at that time.

I don't think that is what he said; he was simply saying that they were written to address errors going on within the early church. All Scripture is profitable and we can garner lessons from what the early church went through.

You have to understand that the world, both Christians and sinners, will stand before God on judgment day and either convict us of justify us.

We are already judged at the Bema Seat of Christ and that being for rewards, not to determine whether or not we get Heaven!

Under a grace only OSAS doctrine people aren't compelled to go into thier bibles and study. Christ said, "My words will judge you on the last day". And if He said that he:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (KJV)

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

The works I do in this body is bringing it unto subjection to the law of Christ, because I will recieve my reward for my good works. If I don't obey the gospel then I will be rewarded for my bad works (sin).

I would rather be judged for my good works and recieve the reward for that.

Disobedience leads to disownership when I turn my back on God and walk with him no more. God won't reject me for sinning. He rejects me when I myself choose not to walk with him anymore. Please don't be confused with rejection just because I sin. It's when I live in sin refusing to repent that I will fall out of favor with God.

What poppycock! OSAS'ers don't study their Bible? I AM NOT OSAS but I can tell you their are OSAS'ers who can run circles around you-Shiloh is one and one of chat moderators, Watchman, is another! Both are very well versed in their Bible!

[Guest shiloh357]

It's interesting how many of these scritpures Shiloh says that they don't apply to us. It's always somebody else,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You are trying to say that Christians can become "children of disobedience." That is pure nonsense. The "children of disobedience" are those who commit these sins without remorse, without repentance, and with no fear of the judgement of God.

Under your understandin you are saying that Christians can't or won't committ these sins. You also state that if they do then they were never Christians anyway.

This is a justification to support the doctrine of OSAS.

I am not arguing about OSAS. I am not a pure OSASer to be truthful. My point is not that if you commit one of those sins, you are not saved. My point is that it simply does not jive with Scripture to say that a true Christian can just up and start living in sin with no compunction whatsoever. There is a litmus test for what a true Christian is.

You justify away the fact that in Revelations chapters 1-3 these churches are warned to repent or God will leave them. I don't know what bible you are reading from but nowhere in the NT will you find preachers referred to as angels. You are reading into those verses to support your doctrine.

Actually, if you did some real study, you would find that it was a euphemism for the Pastor.

In the day in which this passage was written, such sins, even the more sexually explicit ones, were committed much more publicly than even today. In Greece, homosexuality was actually preferred among men so much so, that laws had to be passed to force men to marry women in order that the nation would not cease to exist!

The world in its sinful state is no different than the time the bible was written even all the way back to Noah.

Well yes and no. Today it is just the manner in which it is carried out is different. The United States, for example, has not gotten as bad as Greece in the first century, but we are on our way. Every year, leaders in our society push the envelope a little more. While human depravity has never changed since the beginning of man's fall, some societies have been more civilized and more restrained than others.

One other thing... the letters of Paul to the Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians and Philemon were written when Paul was a prisoner in Rome. He foresaw false teachers and deceivers coming into the Church and drawing away believers into wrong ideas and wrong lifestyles. These letters are written in such a manner that we can see Paul as one who making sure that he covers the most important issues. It is the last they will hear from him. He wants this last communication to contain the most vital and important things he could think to say.

This paragraph said nothing at all.

If the bible, as you put it, was written to all of them and/or for all of them in the time the letters were written, then why do we have it in front of us today? You are taking just the love of Christ, faith, and grace out of the bible and saying that the rest apply to only those at that time.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am simply pointing out what it would have meant to the hearers, and the author in the day it was written. I am not saying that it does not apply to us. In fact, it applies to us in a very real way in our post modern world. Today we are being told that we should not consider homosexuality, bi-sexuality, sex out of wedlock, as "sins." Many today, especially in the homosexual community are pushing, not for tolerance but for absolute acceptance of their lifestyle by the Church, and are demanding equal opportunity to serve as ordained ministers. We are being told that we are prejudiced if we do not accept them and their lifestyle as becoming of the Christian faith. We are told that we need to expunge from our Churches and from our Bibles, any mention of homosexuality as being sinful and an abomination before God.

It is exactly the kind of thing we are being faced with today, that Paul was afraid of. What is more, Paul's fears were valid given that many of these people had not been out of that lifestyle for long, and it was very conceivable that they could fall to wrong influences by false teachers telling them that fornication, idolatry, adultery is not really a sin at all. Paul had good cause to be concerned.

Many of the churches he established were right in the middle of the "lion's den," so to speak. They were right there, in the thick of it all, and susceptible to all kinds sinful influences. This was especially true of churches in coastal cities where they would be exposed to the gods and religions of other societies due to their many shipping ports, and contact in trading with other nations.

You have to understand that the world, both Christians and sinners, will stand before God on judgment day and either convict us of justify us.

Under a grace only OSAS doctrine people aren't compelled to go into thier bibles and study. Christ said, "My words will judge you on the last day". And if He said that he:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (KJV)

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Well as it bears on Salvation, I have already been judged, and judged righteous. I have been declared legally right before God. When I stand before the Lord, I will be judged with regard to my reward. My works will be tested by fire, and that which remains as gold, will determine the degree of my reward.

You don't really understand OSAS people, and you have no business casting judgment on them. Frankly, your handling of Scripture shows a great deal of ignorance regarding hermeneutics, especially in the area the historical/cultural context in which Scripture is couched.

Disobedience leads to disownership when I turn my back on God and walk with him no more. God won't reject me for sinning. He rejects me when I myself choose not to walk with him anymore. Please don't be confused with rejection just because I sin. It's when I live in sin refusing to repent that I will fall out of favor with God.

If you could, walk away from God tomorrow and not look back, then you are not saved. If you really think that tomorrow you could begin a life of unrepentant, aberrant sin without any remorse, or sorrow at hurting the heart of God, if it would not make your heart and head ache just to THINK about doing such a thing, then you cannot be qualified as a Christian. That is my point. A true Christian simply cannot carry on as you fantasize, because of a regenerated heart.

[Homosearching]

We have read many scriptures stating that god will never leave nor forsake us. Yet we find that when I decide that I want sin more than God I am rejected because I first rejected him. If I am striving to do his will then of course he is always with me.

Again, for the record, I am not, nor have ever been, of the OSAS belief. The above statement is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. Are you a parent? I am and let me tell you something, I am not going to disown my child because he's going to "test the waters" and see what he can get by with. I am still going to love him and I will be waiting for him with open arms when he makes enough of a mess of his life that he realizes that I was right! I don't reject him. I may leave him alone (if he was older) to make some mistakes to prove a point, but I'm not going to reject him!

I know that something like this is hard to swallow, but it is true:

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Whether a Christian or a sinner we all fall under these scriptures.

Do you read all scripture in a vacuum like that? Tell me, was it Abraham's obedience to God that saved him? What about Noah, was it his obedience in building the ark which saved him also? If God discipline's His own (according to Hebrews 12), how then can disobedience lead to disownership?

Was it not Noah's obedience that saved him? Could he just say I believe you God and then not build the Ark? And would not that disobedience lead to his death and the death of all mankind?

[MrSealedEternal]

Was it not Noah's obedience that saved him? Could he just say I believe you God and then not build the Ark? And would not that disobedience lead to his death and the death of all mankind?

His obedience was a manifestation of his faith in God. God made an odd request of him to spend a tremendous amount of time doing a seemingly absurd thing, yet he trusted God and did what He said. Everyone around him watched as he built this huge arc, yet no one else apparently asked to join him, or built an arc of their own. It was faith that preceded his works of obedience, and therefore it was his faith that saved him. Ultimately our actions are a reflection of what we believe.

In the same way I can claim that I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, but if I don't act in a manner that expresses that He is the Lord of my life then I really don't have faith in Him. My faith in Him is manifested in my obedience to Him. It is not the intellectual knowledge of Him, or the fact that I am obedient to Him that saves me, but is my faith that He is who He is, and has done what He has done that saves me, which is manifested by my actions. Thus, I am saved by His grace, through my faith, which produces outward signs of my faith.

Mr SE

[Homosearching]

It's interesting how many of these scritpures Shiloh says that they don't apply to us. It's always somebody else,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You are trying to say that Christians can become "children of disobedience." That is pure nonsense. The "children of disobedience" are those who commit these sins without remorse, without repentance, and with no fear of the judgement of God.

Under your understandin you are saying that Christians can't or won't committ these sins. You also state that if they do then they were never Christians anyway.

This is a justification to support the doctrine of OSAS.

I am not arguing about OSAS. I am not a pure OSASer to be truthful. My point is not that if you commit one of those sins, you are not saved. My point is that it simply does not jive with Scripture to say that a true Christian can just up and start living in sin with no compunction whatsoever. There is a litmus test for what a true Christian is.

You justify away the fact that in Revelations chapters 1-3 these churches are warned to repent or God will leave them. I don't know what bible you are reading from but nowhere in the NT will you find preachers referred to as angels. You are reading into those verses to support your doctrine.

Actually, if you did some real study, you would find that it was a euphemism for the Pastor.

In the day in which this passage was written, such sins, even the more sexually explicit ones, were committed much more publicly than even today. In Greece, homosexuality was actually preferred among men so much so, that laws had to be passed to force men to marry women in order that the nation would not cease to exist!

The world in its sinful state is no different than the time the bible was written even all the way back to Noah.

Well yes and no. Today it is just the manner in which it is carried out is different. The United States, for example, has not gotten as bad as Greece in the first century, but we are on our way. Every year, leaders in our society push the envelope a little more. While human depravity has never changed since the beginning of man's fall, some societies have been more civilized and more restrained than others.

One other thing... the letters of Paul to the Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians and Philemon were written when Paul was a prisoner in Rome. He foresaw false teachers and deceivers coming into the Church and drawing away believers into wrong ideas and wrong lifestyles. These letters are written in such a manner that we can see Paul as one who making sure that he covers the most important issues. It is the last they will hear from him. He wants this last communication to contain the most vital and important things he could think to say.

This paragraph said nothing at all.

If the bible, as you put it, was written to all of them and/or for all of them in the time the letters were written, then why do we have it in front of us today? You are taking just the love of Christ, faith, and grace out of the bible and saying that the rest apply to only those at that time.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am simply pointing out what it would have meant to the hearers, and the author in the day it was written. I am not saying that it does not apply to us. In fact, it applies to us in a very real way in our post modern world. Today we are being told that we should not consider homosexuality, b-sexuality, sex out of wedlock, as "sins." Many today, especially in the homosexual community are pushing, not for tolerance but for absolute acceptance of their lifestyle by the Church, and are demanding equal opportunity to serve as ordained ministers. We are being told that we are prejudiced if we do not accept them and their lifestyle as becoming of the Christian faith. We are told that we need to expunge from our Churches and from our Bibles, any mention of homosexuality as being sinful and an abomination before God.

It is exactly the kind of thing we are being faced with today, that Paul was afraid of. What is more, Paul's fears were valid given that many of these people had not been out of that lifestyle for long, and it was very conceivable that they could fall to wrong influences by false teachers telling them that fornication, idolatry, adultery is not really a sin at all. Paul had good cause to be concerned.

Many of the churches he established were right in the middle of the "lion's den," so to speak. They were right there, in the thick of it all, and susceptible to all kinds sinful influences. This was especially true of churches in coastal cities where they would be exposed to the gods and religions of other societies due to their many shipping ports, and contact in trading with other nations.

You have to understand that the world, both Christians and sinners, will stand before God on judgment day and either convict us of justify us.

Under a grace only OSAS doctrine people aren't compelled to go into thier bibles and study. Christ said, "My words will judge you on the last day". And if He said that he:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (KJV)

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Well as it bears on Salvation, I have already been judged, and judged righteous. I have been declared legally right before God. When I stand before the Lord, I will be judged with regard to my reward. My works will be tested by fire, and that which remains as gold, will determine the degree of my reward.

You don't really understand OASES people, and you have no business casting judgment on them. Frankly, your handling of Scripture shows a great deal of ignorance regarding hermeneutics, especially in the area the historical/cultural context in which Scripture is couched.

Disobedience leads to disownership when I turn my back on God and walk with him no more. God won't reject me for sinning. He rejects me when I myself choose not to walk with him anymore. Please don't be confused with rejection just because I sin. It's when I live in sin refusing to repent that I will fall out of favor with God.

If you could, in your mind, walk away from God tomorrow and not look back, then you are not saved. If you really think that tomorrow you could begin a life of unrepentant, aberrant sin without any remorse, or sorrow at hurting the heart of God, if it would not make your heart and head ache just to THINK about doing such a thing, then you cannot be qualified as a Christian. That is my point. A true Christian simply cannot carry on as you fantasize, because of a regenerated heart.

Some questions for Shiloh. Did not Shiloh in the old testament refer to Christ? And what about Hebrew 6 where they cruify Christ afresh because the went back into their sins are you say then they never really had Christ and salvation? And if not how could they have put him to a open shame and be renew again to repentance seeing they had falling away? Do you make yourself out to be the really Shiloh who judges people and says that they never really had it? I do know people who were in there and striving put did fall away because of hard trails and persuction in their lives and they left. Wasn't the parables of the seed and the sower teach us about that and because of trails and persecution and the love for this world they lost their hope?

[eric]

Homosearching asks,

Was it not Noah's obedience that saved him? Could he just say I believe you God and then not build the Ark? And would not that disobedience lead to his death and the death of all mankind?[/quote

Mr and Mrs SE have said what I was going to say and have nothing more to add at this stage

eric.

[Guest shiloh357]

Some questions for Shiloh. Did not Shiloh in the old testament refer to Christ?

It is a Messianic reference to Jesus, yes. It was also the first city where the Tabernacle was built, in the Promised Land.

And what about Hebrew 6 where they cruify Christ afresh because the went back into their sins are you say then they never really had Christ and salvation?

Huh????

And if not how could they have put him to a open shame and be renew again to repentance seeing they had falling away?

Huh??? Could you rephrase this one, and the previous question? I am at a loss as to what you are asking.

Do you make yourself out to be the really Shiloh who judges people and says that they never really had it?

Actually, no. The Bible give us a litmus test for who is a Christian and who is not. A true Christian has a new heart, a new set of desires a new appetite for God, and a new attitude. A true Christian is regenerated, and his/her heart is set on the things of God.

I do know people who were in there and striving put did fall away because of hard trails and persuction in their lives and they left.

Yet, I am not talking about that. I am saying that you cannot be a True Christian, filled with Spirit, serving God everyday, experience His presence, firing on all eight cylinders with the throttle wide open, and then wake up one morning and just decide out of the blue to apostasize, fornicate, and worship the devil. Cardcaptor is saying that such is possible, and I am saying that a person who can walk away from God and not look back, and just flat out not care, never had the Lord to start with.

I have, had you bothered to read my previous posts, admitted that there are Christians who in a time of discouragement, and despair, walk away. Sometimes, the loss of a child, or spouse, or the infidelity of a spouse, or divorce, or something else can hurt so much that it has the potential to shipwreck their faith. That happens. That is where I say that the grace and compassion of God is most needed. There is a difference between someone who falls in a time of extraordinary pain, and someone who simply preferred to spend their time gratifying their sinful lusts.

Wasn't the parables of the seed and the sower teach us about that and because of trails and persecution and the love for this world they lost their hope?

No Jesus was talking about a group who received the word with joy but it was the cares of this world and lusts of other things that choked out the Word that was planted. That does not necessarily refer to a falling away or losing hope. We all get distracted with the daily cares of life, from time to time.

I have a study I have done on the four categories of Christians mentioned in that parable in Mark. The specific category you reference is category three. That is where most Christians are. We receive the Word of God, it takes root, but we get distracted. We get too many irons in the fire, and pretty soon the Word takes a back seat to everything else, and that which was planted never flourishes because we are now too busy to nourish the Word that was already implanted.

Even Church work, and ministry can actually keep us from the Word of God. We can get so caught up in Church activities and mission trips, and special events, that we actually forget about God. Those things meant to help us serve the Lord end up causing us to be the antithesis of what we are supposed to be.