Mary Was Just A Woman

[Guest shiloh357]

Where is marrage spoke here?

Hebrews, chapter 1

Assisi,

This is what Jesus said:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

(Matthew 22:29-33)

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

(Luke 20:34-36)

We are compared to the angels by Jesus in that we are immortal and that we do not marry in heaven. That is the only similarity that Jesus draws between saints in heaven and angels.

We do not become angels. Angels and saints are two different entities. The angels minister to the saints. Rather, the angels minister to the saints as God commands them. The angels do not "minister" in the sense that they are personally touched with our infirmities and sorrows. They are only ministering on God's behalf. Angels only serve us as God commands them to.

Furthermore the writer of Hebrews is comparing Jesus to the angels. He is showing Jesus to be superior to the angels in verses 5-13 of Hebrews 1. Hebrews chapter 1 does NOTHING to help your case.

[Kabowd]

If Mary was perfect and sinless....then why didn't she just die for us then? From everything I've read in Scripture, there was and is only ONE spotless Lamb (Christ).

[seraph]

read it in context... does it say she she brings salvation?

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will,  to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is  a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization"  (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further.  "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.  "511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

(snip)

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Yeah

[Pax]

Assisi,

Historical Christian doctrines "held without controversy" prior to the schism of the 11th century.

These are not simply Catholic doctrines, but historical Christian doctrines. How do we know this? Because in the 11th century when the Eastern Orthodox Churches split from the Catholics, both sides kept these doctrines!

Regardless of their other differences, both sides believed, and continue to believe to this day, that all of the above doctrines are part of the deposit of faith given by the apostles to the Church.

Again, our RC friend falls back on the typical inbred thinking so prevalent within Catholic circles - the notion that the RCC can be traced back through some fabled

[Guest Zayit]

Again, our RC friend falls back on the typical inbred thinking so prevalent within Catholic circles - the notion that the RCC can be traced back through some fabled

[Guest LadyC]

the term inbred thinking has nothing at all to do with genetic inbreeding, and was not meant to be a slur against any person. there are two definitions of the word imbred, and i will post them here.

in

[Assisi]

horizonist

It was about the middle, then, of the seventh century

[EricH]

I understand that we can find extra-biblical writers on both sides of the issue. What I have not seen is scriptural support for the idea of Mary holding the role Catholics claim.

[Pax]

Horizoneast,

Where is St. Peter buried if you don't think he is buried in Vatican City? If you don't acknowledge this than you lose all credibility. Saint Peter is clearly buried in the Crypt under the Bascilica in Vatican City. This is an objective truth, not circular reasoning as you put it. You just don't want to admit the connection between Peter and the Catholic Church.

The Fundamental Doctrine of the Catholic Church hasn't changed in 2,000 years. You are wrong when you say it has, and your example of Mexico is totally misleading. There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary, the Church has taught this from the begining. There has been abuses by some Catholics around the world in the area of Mary, of course, but Rome hasn't ever endorsed such practices.

Horizoneast, you can't make a post about the Catholic Church without taking pot shots that are totally unfounded. Just like you calling Catholics inbred in there thinking, this was a total slam, you now say that most Catholic Priest are homosexuals. You have nothing to back this up, except what one disgruntled priest said in an interview. In other words you have no evidence. The Vatican has never once endorsed homosexuality in any way shape or form. My local Parish Priest doesn't say, "hey we are going to vote and see whether or not to allow homosexual clergy." This is what is going on with the Church of Christ and the Anglican Church. Delegates from different parts of the country meet and vote whether or not to allow homosexual clergy. The Catholic Church will never endorse homosexuality, abortion, contraception, women priest, etc. This would not be the Church doctrine that Christ founded 2,000 years ago. The Catholic Church takes much abuse from sources such as the media, politicans, and world leaders, but the Church will never buckle down, but rather stand for the truth.

EricH,

Sola Scriptora is the weekest argument and completely unfounded. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, and reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." This in no way says that Scripture is the only source of guidance given by the Holy Spirit. It says that scripture is inspiried by God, which any good Catholic would agree. But there is much more to the faith and stated in scripture.

There is one twinfold source of God's revelation to the poeple. The first part of this twinfold source is Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is made up of the oral truths of God transmitted to the apostles and their successors.

Sacred Scripture is the other aspect of that one twinfold source. Scripture comprises the divine truths of God written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So EricH, you miss out on half of God's revelation to the people. This is why it is hard for Catholics to discuss Mary and other subjects since Protestants aren't going to acknowledge tradition, even though we are told to in scripture (2 Thess 2:15 "Hold fast to tradition, whether oral or by letter.") I also don't understand how Bible based Churchs can look past all the scripture related to tradition in the Bible. One also has to remember that the Bible was written from oral tradition and wasn't completeld until hundreds of years after Christ walked on Earth. Sola Scriptora wasn't even a thought until 500 years ago when Martin Luther decided to break off and start his own theology. The 1,500 years before this, tradition and scripture were not even questioned as the source of God's revelation to the people.

Edited July 23, 2005 by Pax

[seraph]

I understand that we can find extra-biblical writers on both sides of the issue. What I have not seen is scriptural support for the idea  of Mary holding the role Catholics claim.

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Exactly... I can't find any in the Bible, so I would appreciate Biblical evidence.

What I do find in the Bible and from my understanding is that Christ is the only mediator between God and man - 1Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus, God alone is worthy of worship- 1 Chronicles 29:11-12 - Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on earth belongs to You. Yours, Lord, is the kingdom, and You are exalted as head over all. Riches and honor come from You, and You are the ruler of everything. In Your hand are power and might, and it is in Your hand to make great and to give strength to all. , and we are not to communicate with the dead (even aksing them to "intercede" for us - Deuteronomy 18:10a,11b - No one among you is to... cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead - and I would think that means even attempting to communicate with the saints in heaven - Luke 16:19-31 ..."'Father Abraham!' he called out, 'Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame!'"...- there was a great chasm that they couldn't pass and the dead couldn't help the living.

Could you help me out and please reference the Scriptures you base something on???