Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[Blood Bought 1953]

18 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Jesus warns individuals to repent, for they turned from their relationship with God.  When I hear of someone saying that a believer does not need to repent of their disobedience to God words once they are saved, my mind goes back to the first sin man made and how the same words turned Eve from obeying God

 

If Jesus or anybody else says to “ Repent”—- it would be wise to do so.In my experience as a Christian, I don’t  concentrate any more on repenting than I do “ praying without ceasing”....it just comes naturally .....anytime I screw up, and I do that pretty much every day, ( how about you ? ) I “ find” myself repenting. After Salvation , it seems Repentance is a Fruit Of The Spirit and part of God’s Sanctification process.

Regardless, when Jesus says “Repent” , meaning to stop what you are doing, change your mind about what you are doing , stop your mistaken behavior , listen to me and do what I tell you to do ....be Wise,  Be Obedient ..DO WHAT HE SAYS.....

Using that Logic.....If Jesus ever  says..... “ Repent Of Your Sins TO BE SAVED!” It would wise to do that! Lucky for us  , Jesus never said that —- especially if by “ repent” Jesus was saying “ Stop Sinning” in order to be fit for Heaven...

After the Cross, after His Ascension and now that we are no longer under Law ,  but find  ourselves under Grace  , Jesus revealed the True Manner In which a person can be declared “ Not Guilty” by God and be “ fit for Heaven”.....Jesus used His “Chosen Vessel” , Paul to reveal The Way to Salvation....God had kept it Secret for Millenia

It was Paul that Jesus used to reveal the Good News about our Salvation....no more was it “ this is what “ YOU” must do”.....It became “ This is what  “ I” have done for lost, hopeless Sinners who can offer Nothing But their sins.The Good News is that I have done EVERYTHING necessary for your Salvation and all YOU have to do is to take it by FAITH.Two things propelled this Gospel....My Mercy and My Love .Yes, Jesus did it all ...it is up to “Us” to Cash-In on this FREE GIFT by Believing and Resting in the Gospel Of Pure Grace Plus Nothing....Believe Cor15:1-4 ( Jesus died for your sins and rose  from the Grave ) and prove you Believe it by refusing to ADD to it with ANYTHING and also prove you are Trusting in what Jesus did by RESTING in His Finished Work at the Cross.Don't make the common mistake of “ Trying” to be Saved as opposed to “Trusting” it be Saved....God ain’t gonna Save Those “ Trying” to be Saved by their Performance  or by slyly supplanting God’s Way Of Salvation- GRACE- with Repentance .The one-time  TURN, the CHANGE of MIND that takes a lost Man  from a non- Believer in Jesus to a SAVED MAN who has CHANGED the  Direction Of His Life, who has now become a  BELIEVER in Jesus has undergone the type of Repentance that God Demands....Anyone who has no Faith in The Gospel needs to change his mind and put his Faith in that and that alone in order to be Saved. Although there are other types of Repentance — THIS is the One Type That Saves.....The  common understanding of Repentancec—the Sorrow and Regret that follows Sinning —- is a trait common to the Regenerated Man...it becomes a naturally recurring behavior , spurred  by the Indwelling Holy Spirit......a Thing That was lacking in the Original Repentance......God Bless...

  

[OneLight]

14 hours ago, Coliseum said:

Appy, if this is what you believe you are hearing, then i believe you are misinterpreting. Once a sinner is saved, his life should be illustrating a changed life. What OSAS is saying is that it is no longer under compulsion that we change. It is no longer that we have to change or else. It is an inward willingness and desire to change because we understand the cost Jesus paid, out of his love to save us. Jesus is not interested in our outward compliance. He is not interested in the number of sins we check off in a checkbox---and btw, we couldn't reduce the number of sins in us even if we wanted to. Many believe that Jesus is way over there someplace, and we are separated from him because of the uncountable number of sins we have. Many think, "Gee, if I could remove half those sins, that distance between us and God will diminish." We do not realize that tomorrow, 35  more wheelbarrows of sins are dumped right back into our laps. God is not interested in numbers. He wants our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the man saved by his grace grasps how much Christ loves us because of the cross. Paul said, "Boast in the cross." He did not say we couldn't boast. We can boast. Boast in the Cross; and to the extent that we do, we want all the more to follow him, to love him, to be obedient with our entire being.  No longer because there will be Hell to pay, but because there will be eternity with Him to gain. We no longer think according to the old flesh, but we become a whole other person that longs to be in our Father's lap out of joy, not fear!

 

 

Since Appy stated that she is not going to get into such discussion, which I take she will not be responding to your questions and statement, I thought I would give a reply since this really needs to be addresses.  I hope you can except the format I chose to use.  I split them up into 14 points you seem to of made and will answer in order. 

 

1. Appy, if this is what you believe you are hearing, then i believe you are misinterpreting.
2. Once a sinner is saved, his life should be illustrating a changed life. 
3. What OSAS is saying is that it is no longer under compulsion that we change.
4. It is no longer that we have to change or else.
5. It is an inward willingness and desire to change because we understand the cost Jesus paid, out of his love to save us.
6. Jesus is not interested in our outward compliance.
7. He is not interested in the number of sins we check off in a checkbox
8. and btw, we couldn't reduce the number of sins in us even if we wanted to.
9. Many believe that Jesus is way over there someplace, and we are separated from him because of the uncountable number of sins we have.
10. Many think, "Gee, if I could remove half those sins, that distance between us and God will diminish."
11. We do not realize that tomorrow, 35  more wheelbarrows of sins are dumped right back into our laps.
12. God is not interested in numbers. He wants our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the man saved by his grace grasps how much Christ loves us because of the cross.
13. Paul said, "Boast in the cross." He did not say we couldn't boast. We can boast. Boast in the Cross; and to the extent that we do, we want all the more to follow him, to love him, to be obedient with our entire being.  No longer because there will be Hell to pay, but because there will be eternity with Him to gain. 
14. We no longer think according to the old flesh, but we become a whole other person that longs to be in our Father's lap out of joy, not fear!

 

Below is my response to your post above

 

1. Abby is giving a report of what she has observed while reading the replies posts and is speaking to those who believe in OSAS.  She is not misinterpreting anything as she is not trying to analyze the message.  However, she is observing how people respond to others.   Actions speak for themselves.
2. I fully agree
3. Strongly disagree.  His Holy Spirit continues to work in us while creating the new man and teaching us how to walk in His Spirit.  We are compelled to follow His instructions, leading and lessons, which brings us out of infancy and into maturity.
4. I strongly disagree.  To neglect and/or reject the work of His Holy Spirit in our lives only quenches the Spirit, which leads to the hardening of the heart toward  Him.  Paul’s words from 1 Thessalonians 5:19 are “Do not quench the Spirit.”
5. I agree, but will add that it is out of our love for God that we desire to be like Him.  Love is the key.  1 Corinthians 13:1-5 – “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.”
6. Disagree 100%.  Jesus is interested in every aspect of our lives.  To even suggest that Jesus is not interested in our "outward compliance" goes against every taught in scripture.   John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
7. See response #6, it fits perfectly to this statement.
8. Strongly disagree.  We can never erase our sins, Jesus does that.  We can, however, refrain sinning; therefore, reducing the sins we commit.
9. Since you say “many believe”, I will assume you are talking about those who know nothing about scripture, and are not born again believers.  If you are talking about born again believer, I would have to strongly disagree.  Salvation can only come by the conviction of His Holy Spirit, and that is a personal message from God to the sinner.  Once saved He is with us in a personal relationship.
10. See response #9 as it fits perfectly to this statement.
11. I get the jest of this statement as nobody knows what tomorrow will bring, which is why we are always told to be ready.  Matthew 24:44  “Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
12. I disagree with the first sentence.  John 3:16 tells us that God so love the world, meaning everyone, and He knows just how many there are.  To watch just one person reject His Son really means something to Him.  As for the second sentence, I partially agree as we can never fully grasp the love Jesus has for us.  We can only begin to know as we grow in Him.
13. That sure is not what Paul meant in Galatians 6:14 when he said:. “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”  Nowhere does Paul even suggest that the more you boast the more you want to become like Jesus.  That is replacing love with boasting.
14. That is the goal we all seek, to no longer walk and live in the flesh (old man), and to be with Him is the results of a race well run.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by OneLight
formatting

[Alive]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

@Alive

Brother, everything you said above I agree with, but I also see something missing.  Speaking about he 7 churches, it is His desire through His love for us that nobody receives judgement, that all follow His will for them.  While Jesus is addressing the whole Body, He is speaking to us as individuals.  His warnings do not say if this person does not repent, I will judge the whole body.  This is why He tells them to repent, warning them - out of love.  Yet, there are consequences they must face if they neglect His warnings.  These consequences are the most severe a man could face. 

Some would say that through His love He will convict them to the point where they repent.  But, is that an attribute of Gods true love?  Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13 that true Godly love does not seek its own and that it bears all things.  What does this really mean if God forces someone to repent and do His will?  True love comes from the heart, not the mind. 

When we, through love, focus on Him and His will for our lives, we will fulfill all that Paul speaks of in our lives because of Him, not us.  We can never take credit for what He does.  Now, the flip side is if we turn our hearts from God and seek our own desires in life, we will not fulfill what Paul speaks of as we are no longer abiding in Him, but in ourselves.  Just as we can never take credit for what God does, we can never blame God for what we do outside of Him. 

When Paul speaks about putting the old man to death, he is speaking symbolically; that we fully ignore the desires of the flesh and seek His will for us instead.  The old man does not disappear.  It remains until we are renewed in Him.  When Paul speaks about all things become new in 2 Corinthians 5:17, he is speaking of being reconciled to God, of what happens in the process of salvation.  This new life we are to walk in, but that does not mean the old life is no more, vanished, never to be a problem again for the rest of our lives.  It means we need to continue in Him, one step at a time.  It is not until we die that our old man vanishes with the natural desire it encompasses.

As Jesus speaks about believing and abiding in Him, He is speaking of a relationship between God and us.  When our relationship with God starts to wane, we need to change and return to Him and His will for our lives.  There is no other reason why the relationship would ever wane if it were not for us walking away from the "agreement" of this relationship.  God will never dishonor His word, but we may.  This brings us back to the beginning, why Jesus warns individuals to repent, for they turned from their relationship with God.  When I hear of someone saying that a believer does not need to repent of their disobedience to God words once they are saved, my mind goes back to the first sin man made and how the same words turned Eve from obeying God.  The words of that lie that echoes in me is "You will not surely die."

As you said, the bible is one book that a person can study all of their lives and only get a glimpse of its fullness.  It's too vast and we can never fully understand God.  I see one of mans biggest mistakes is when he reads scripture and writes down what he thinks it mean, creating a theory.  When this happens, he moves away from the guidance of His Holy Spirit and begins to form his own understanding from his own opinion. 

@OneLightsorry for the delay in responding. My wife and pup went for a long drive and tossing a stick for the pup to swim.

:-)

Repenting--in my mind there is the initial repentance that is a part of the born again experience and then there is the idea of an ongoing life of our minds being changed toward what pleases our Father. Repentance is a change of mind and/or a turning around--just as you know.

As far as the 7 churches and the lamp stands, the point I was wanting to make is that of a loss of standing as a 'local church' and a loss of reward and standing of individuals as it relates to 'treasure in heaven'.

Again, there is much to that concept and process echoed throughout scripture, that we could get into. I believe that beyond the Cross and the three things accomplished there, as I mentioned, there is an ongoing 'salvation' that is entirely separate and yet connected to and made possible by--the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

It is there where, IMO--all of the potential for loss regarding an individual resides--but that potential loss never extends to the the Gift of Eternal Life.

This is where 'abiding in Him' comes in and again follows the initial work of the Father to put us into Christ--literally. From there the abiding is an ongoing experience while in these earthen vessels. We can fail in that sort of abiding and then repent and get right back at it--as His wonderful Grace and Mercy is supplied. It is important for new ones reading that He receives us when we turn back toward Him with nothing but Love and zero condemnation. There is never a sense of Condemnation.  Christ took care of that. We can fall short and be unfaithful and all of us do that---but the remedy is no different than the Cross.  Always the Cross. Our Cross is relating to our death to self as an ongoing experience.

The Justification that is purchased by Christ for us--is a one time event and a very done deal. We have been made 'right' in God's eyes by the blood shed and the imputing of the very Righteousness of Christ to us. These things--not to beat the horse to a pulp--are a matter of history.

If I cook a rack of ribs--I cannot return them to a state of uncooked. As much of a trick as that would be--it pales when we are considering 'Eternal Life' In Christ.

[Behold]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

@Alive

 1. ) the process of salvation. 

 

2.) This new life we are to walk in, but that does not mean the old life is no more, vanished, never to be a problem again for the rest of our lives.  It means we need to continue in Him, one step at a time.  It is not until we die that our old man vanishes with the natural desire it encompasses.

3. ) God will never dishonor His word, but we may.  This brings us back to the beginning, why Jesus warns individuals to repent, for they turned from their relationship with God.  When I hear of someone saying that a believer does not need to repent of their disobedience to God words once they are saved, my mind goes back to the first sin man made and how the same words turned Eve from obeying God.  The words of that lie that echoes in me is "You will not surely die."

 

---------------

Well there is a lot wrong with what you are implying.   As there is a ton of implication here..

1.) First. @OneLight.. you mistakenly  call Salvation a Process.  And this statement is simply  a complete misunderstanding of Salvation.....See, what you have done is twisted  the idea of "work our your salvation" into "keep yourself saved".  You've turned what Jesus did, into what you are doing as self effort....  You've substituted the Cross for your WALK, for your Discipleship.  This is because you don't understand that what Jesus accomplished by his Blood, Death, and Resurrection= IS Salvation.........Its not what we do with it.   It what Jesus did that created it, and you dont understand this and that is why you think that your "walking it out", is actually Salvation, when in fact, what Jesus did on the Cross is SALVATION< that is OFFERED as a FINISHED Blood Atonement.  You dont "walk that out"  You RECEIVE IT BY FAITH.   So, the "process of salvation" that you are confusing with What Jesus finished as His "WORK" on the Cross.....= what you are always doing.... is..... You are always confusing YOUR DISCIPLESHIP  with "The finished WORK of Jesus on the Cross".

 

2.)   You have this idea that because we have "flesh", that this gives us the excuse to keep sinning, repenting, and this becomes our Christianity.  Thats not true.

 Or as you say, "It is not until we die that our old man vanishes with the natural desire it encompasses"" So, what you said, is not my reality, is not my Christianity, and should not be anyone's who understands how to "Walk in the Spirit" by Right Believing.   You however are sinning and repenting because you are walking in the flesh, and until you learn how to Believe Right, you'll continue to fail, and talk more to us here about your Repenting.

 

3.) Again, you are teaching that you can stop being born again.. Stop being IN Christ, and stop having Eternal Life because you "walk away".   

This is once again Your Legalism being defined as "you can lose your salvation" by "walking away".  

Listen, God has purchased the born again person with the Blood of Christ.  This makes us OWNED by God......and eternally so.   There is no walking away from being born again.   The idea of walking away that you present , is the idea that you can dissolve an eternal union with God and  Christ because of a mood swing.

= false  Theology that is not only illogical, but, Grace Defying.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Behold

[steve morrow]

--IF-- YOU  CONTINUE 

COLOSSIANS 1:20 and you --THAT WERE-- sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works yet now hath  HE  reconciled --1:22-- in the body of  HIS  flesh through death --TO  PRESENT  YOU  HOLY  AND  UNBLAMEABLE  AND  UNREPROVEABLE  IN  HIS  SIGHT 

--1:23-- IF -- YOU  CONTINUE--  in the faith grounded and settled and be --not --MOVED  AWAY  FROM  THE  HOPE  OF  THE  GOSPEL-- which you have heard and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven whereof I paul am made a minister 

ACTS 27:25  wherefore sirs be of good cheer --FOR  I  BELIEVE  GOD-- that it shall be even as it was told me 

 

PSALM 50:7  hear  O  MY  people and I will speak  O ISRAEL  and I will testify against thee  --I  AM  GOD  EVEN  THY  GOD

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[OneLight]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

@OneLightsorry for the delay in responding. My wife and pup went for a long drive and tossing a stick for the pup to swim.

:-)

Repenting--in my mind there is the initial repentance that is a part of the born again experience and then there is the idea of an ongoing life of our minds being changed toward what pleases our Father. Repentance is a change of mind and/or a turning around--just as you know.

As far as the 7 churches and the lamp stands, the point I was wanting to make is that of a loss of standing as a 'local church' and a loss of reward and standing of individuals as it relates to 'treasure in heaven'.

Again, there is much to that concept and process echoed throughout scripture, that we could get into. I believe that beyond the Cross and the three things accomplished there, as I mentioned, there is an ongoing 'salvation' that is entirely separate and yet connected to and made possible by--the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

It is there where, IMO--all of the potential for loss regarding an individual resides--but that potential loss never extends to the the Gift of Eternal Life.

This is where 'abiding in Him' comes in and again follows the initial work of the Father to put us into Christ--literally. From there the abiding is an ongoing experience while in these earthen vessels. We can fail in that sort of abiding and then repent and get right back at it--as His wonderful Grace and Mercy is supplied. It is important for new ones reading that He receives us when we turn back toward Him with nothing but Love and zero condemnation. There is never a sense of Condemnation.  Christ took care of that. We can fall short and be unfaithful and all of us do that---but the remedy is no different than the Cross.  Always the Cross. Our Cross is relating to our death to self as an ongoing experience.

The Justification that is purchased by Christ for us--is a one time event and a very done deal. We have been made 'right' in God's eyes by the blood shed and the imputing of the very Righteousness of Christ to us. These things--not to beat the horse to a pulp--are a matter of history.

If I cook a rack of ribs--I cannot return them to a state of uncooked. As much of a trick as that would be--it pales when we are considering 'Eternal Life' In Christ.

As for the delays, I am splitting the attic into two room with a hall, so I also have responsibilities beside Worthy.  I understand if you do not get back to me right away.  To be honest, I was working and not even checking if you replied.  As it is, I am writing this during my breaks.  No worries Bro!

I thank you for bearing with me on this subject.  I know this will be a bit long, but I want to address this as nobody seems to be examining these scriptures to the depth and process I am.  I say this only because nobody yet has committed on the commands to repent. Instead, they switch to forgiveness.  So you know, I do understand the way the thought process goes when it comes to OSAS as I was part of that for about 30 years years when I first came to Christ.  That was what I was taught, that was what I learned, and that was what I believed.  Since then, I began a much deeper walk in Christ and the study of His word through His Holy Spirit.  I am no longer spoon fed any denominational doctrine and theology.

Let's start in order.  I am just going to pick a couple that are easier to discuss.

Revelation 2:1-6

To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.  Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.  Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.  But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Here, we see Jesus praising the church for"

• works, labor, patience and that they cannot stand evil people
• testing false apostles
• for preserving, have patience and have not become weary of their labors in Him

Then Jesus reprimands them for leaving their first love and tells them:

• Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works

Then he warns them of what will happen if they do not obey:

• or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place

And returns to His warning and repeats:

• unless you repent

He ends with more praise:

• this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate, along with a promise:
  • To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.

I will agree that His praises encourage them in many ways to continue in Him, like before.  I would also say that His reprimands pushes that point even further, all done in His love.

What we should never be overlook, which is all too often skipped over without comment, is the fact that Jesus tells them, His children, that if they do not repent, He will remove the lampstand from it's place.  Where is "it's place?  In Him, as each believer is his or her own lampstand  in Him is part of the Body of Christ.  Why all of a sudden switch from the church to the individual?  The church are no more than a collection of individuals.  Some individuals were praised for the continued work in Him, while some were reprimanded for leaving their first love.  Without the love, they stopped doing their work in Him.

This next one is a little more difficult as the reader has to realize that there is always the flip side of any situation and purpose. Examples are God/Satan; good/evil; up/down; hot/cold; accepted/rejected. 

Revelation 3:1-5

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.  Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.  You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.  He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

A lot is said in just a few words.  He intertwines His reprimands, instruction, and warning together.  First, Jesus does not praise them as a whole, but goes straight to a very strong reprimand. 

• I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
• I have not found your works perfect before God

He then speaks of instructions

• Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die
• Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent.
• Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
  • Note: Coming as a thief has often been refereed to as the rapture, especially when combined with "watch", but this is different.  Jesus is telling them to give strict attention to, be cautious, active

Then comes the praise, but for only a few in Sardis.

• You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Next come the coin with two sides.  As Jesus continues to inform the few who have stayed faithful and those who do repent, He continues:

• He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The last point above is where many people fail to understand the fullness of His statement.  Let's apply the flip side of the coin here.

• He who overcomes / one who does not repent and overcome
• shall be clothed in white garment / will not be clothed in white garments
• I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life / will blot name out of the Book of Life
• I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels / silence

At the end of each of the seven churches Jesus addresses comes the heart of God: “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

The fullness of a relationship is not all promises, but encouragements, warnings, rebukes, reproof, lessons, gifts, works, rewards, blessings and rest, to just mention a few benefits.  They fit together to build a complete, wise and mature person in Christ, a real child God designed us to be.  God knows who will run the race and who will not.  He also knows who will finish the race and who will not.  He desires all to run and finish, but some will not run at all - their fate awaits them at the Judgement.  He delights in all who finish, but also realized some won't, even though He warns them of their weaknesses and encourages them to strengthen themselves in Him by returning to abide in Him.

Remember the parable of the Sower?  Jesus explained the four types of sown seed. 

• When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
• But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
• Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
• But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The first never gave much thought about salvation and was an easy target for Satan.  The second knew the truth when it was heard, but had no solid foundation, building his house on sand.  The third did believe onto salvation, for in order to even be able to bear fruit, you must be in the Vine, but when time went on, the world was too tempting and he turned from the truth, no longer abiding in Christ, like what we talked about in John 15  The last are born again believers who finish the race they begun.

All scripture flows together very nicely when you take it word for word and not try to reason it to mean something it is not meant to mean.  Jesus did warn those in the 7 churches who had turned away from Him.  His warning came with the judgment for those who did not obey and take heed.

Sorry for the length, it has truly been a long day.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by OneLight
spelling and to finish a sentence

[Alive]

@Onelight--I have addressed what I believe is going on in the Rev section dealing with the 7 and it is consistent with what I believe is true of each of us 'In Christ'.

There are many warnings and admonitions to 'go on' in our walk of sanctification and just simply experiencing a regular and consistent walk of 'fellowship' with our Lord and our Lord in one another. Yes and the 'or else' stuff always relates to reward and the possible loss of reward.

Wood, hay, stubble--gold, silver and precious stones.

I get that there are verses that appear to say that a true born again individual can be 'unborn again', but I don't see it that way. There are a great many that show me I cannot be lost once saved. Again--for myself, the history of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension is at the core of my belief.

I don't wish to hash over all of these verses here--that has been done ad nausem.

However, I have yet to hear anyone deal with the History of the Cross, as I have expressed it. Show me how that history is reversed. I died, was separated from the First Adam and placed into the Second Christ and became a birthed member of that new race of men--the Second Adam and am now 'Hidden with Christ in God'.

These are actual events. Very real events with of course eternal consequence. God honored Himself when He accepted my Faith and translated me into Himself and Himself into me and 'sealed the deal' with the Holy Spirit. Now--I am hidden in a very safe place in Heaven. The shelter of the Most High. He will not remove me and I have no power to remover myself--no more than I had power to get there.

Praise God for His Wisdom, Grace and Mercy. He desired many sons--and has them.

[George]

On 5/24/2020 at 7:19 PM, OneLight said:

For many weeks now I have been asked the same question by many members in many different ways, and since sanctification and justification is a process one lives through until they die,

@OneLight  Perhaps you may want to rephrase this ... or perhaps this is why there is a disagreement.  The idea of justification is a "process", I believe statement is in error, and this is why.  

For example he who JUSTIFIED ... also GLORIFIED.  It's past tense.  The "process" of our daily lives is sanctification which is completely a separate ongoing work of God in our lives.

Rom_8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Take a look at the sealing process that takes place when you BELIEVED (Past Tense) ...

Eph 1:13  In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 
Eph 1:14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 

When one BELIEVED (Past tense) one is SEALED (past tense) ... UNTIL we acquire possession of it ... 

I hope this aids in the explanation to this discussion,

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George 

 

[OneLight]

14 minutes ago, George said:

@OneLight  Perhaps you may want to rephrase this ... or perhaps this is why there is a disagreement.  The idea of justification is a "process", I believe statement is in error, and this is why.  

For example he who JUSTIFIED ... also GLORIFIED.  It's past tense.  The "process" of our daily lives is sanctification which is completely a separate ongoing work of God in our lives.

Rom_8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Take a look at the sealing process that takes place when you BELIEVED (Past Tense) ...

Eph 1:13  In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 
Eph 1:14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 

When one BELIEVED (Past tense) one is SEALED (past tense) ... UNTIL we acquire possession of it ... 

I hope this aids in the explanation to this discussion,

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

You are correct George, this is one of the reasons why there is a disagreement, but not the only one.  For me to change my view to yours would require me to agree that man will never sin after salvation, or that mans sin after salvation is never held against them, wherefore I would have to agree that forgiveness does not require confession or repentance.  Some here believe that we became sinless once saved; others believe that even if we do sin, there is no requirement to repent and ask for forgiveness; still others believe that if you sin after salvation, don't worry about it as God will not count that against you due to His mercy; and some believe that if you sin after salvation you can just sit back and wait for His Holy Spirit to convict you to the point you have no peace until you repent.  Since each are different in one way or another, are you saying that all these Calvinist beliefs are justifiable in His eyes?  For many, they see justification only applied at the time of salvation and it covers you until the day you die, no matter what.  I see it as a continuing process, not that God changes, but we change.

Calvinist hold predestination as a means that there is nothing we can ever do to to change who will be saved, ignoring John 3:16, so the lucky few who are elected will be come justified and glorified.  To them, it is already a done deal.  If that is the case, all teachings in scripture should end there as those who are not elected have no chance for salvation and those who are elected have no worries, God's going to do it all for them.

Romans 8:30 tells us what God will do in the lives of those saved.  I see nowhere where justification is a one time for all deal like glorification is, as we are not glorified until we are with Him.  For me, justification and sanctification walk hand in hand in a persons life until glorified after death.  In other words, you may want to sit down for this, salvation is also completed at death.  In some way, you admit it in your own post.  Here, let me show you.  "When one BELIEVED (Past tense) one is SEALED (past tense) ... UNTIL we acquire possession of it (future tense)"  Here you rightfully claim that a believer is sealed with His Holy Spirit upon salvation, all past tense and true.  Then you go on to say that we have not yet acquired possession of it yet.  If everything was a done deal, once and for all, why the waiting period for the saved to take possession?  Possession of all His promises (the prize) happens at the end of the race, not at the beginning or sometime in the race, but at the finish line.  You are correct that both believed and sealed is past tense, but, according to yor own words, you believe possession in future tense.

The jest of the disagreement, in my eyes, is this.  Many try to show that once we are saved everything is completed.  That life is just a waiting period for us to live through until we finally die and pass onto eternity in Him.  Nothing we can ever do will change that.  If they sin, not a problem.  If they live mostly in the world, no worries.  If they ignore any instructions or warnings, it will not be held against them.  To me, this is not the love for Him as they claim it is, it is the opposite, being justified in their eyes through the word faith.  This is the main focus of James, to show people that the moment of salvation is not the end, but just the beginning. 

You see, we are justified at the time of salvation, but justification does not end there.  Through the sanctification process, if the believer even decided to follow through this process, each step in this process becomes justified in us, a continual process.

I suggest to you, and everyone else who follows your belief, that in stead of looking at snapshots of life, one event in a timeline, view it as a movie from the beginning of salvation until death and you will understand that it is only at death we can ever say about this whole process "it is finished".

 

 

[George]

21 minutes ago, OneLight said:

For me to change my view to yours would require me to agree that man will never sin after salvation, or that mans sin after salvation is never held against them, wherefore I would have to agree that forgiveness does not require confession or repentance.

This is an article I am working on ... dealing with Repentance.  I'm still working on the editing stages, but it will clarify for this purpose as my understanding of repentance and how it works in the life of the believer.

The message of the Kingdom of God spoken of by Yeshua (Jesus) and the Apostles always began with the word – Repent! We see it as an overarching theme of the entire New Testament, and yet with this very word, most people never grasp the scope of its meaning.

The word, repent, in Greek literally means to have a “changed mind” about sin.  Repentance unto salvation is a changed mind about sin and a turning toward God! True repentance will result in true salvation – and will lead to a genuine trans-formative new life with God!  

The difference between genuine and false repentance is simply your heart felt attitude about you deal and process the issue of sin.  If you're thought process and lifestyle never changes ... then one has never grasped the meaning of repentance and the result it should bring.

The famous preacher, Charles Spurgeon once said, “Repentance is as much a mark of a Christian, as faith is. A very little sin, as the world calls it, is a very great sin to a true Christian.”

True repentance will lead to saving faith that brings about a holy lifestyle. As Paul rejoiced when the carnal church in Corinth received his correction, and said,  “I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, .... godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” [2 Corinthians 7:8-10]

So there is a changed mind concerning sin that leads to salvation … repentance toward God! The evidence of a truly saved person is your life will be changed! 

Paul warned the Corinth church and encouraged them to "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"  [2 Corinthians 13:5]

Now that you've made the step of repentance toward salvation, there enters into the life of a believer repentance away from sin, even with all its struggles! If you are true child of God, He will not allow you to live in a lifestyle of sin for very long.

For example, we read in Revelation 3:19, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.”  For if you a truly one of God's children, it says in Hebrews [Hebrews 12:5-8] that He will discipline you as a loving Father would discipline his child that He loves and warns, "if you are left without discipline," then you are possibly an "illegitimate child and not a son."

True repentance does not mean that a Christian can't genuinely struggle with their sin as Paul so eloquently pointed out in Romans 7, but Paul concludes and states, “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” and answers himself, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

While we live in this life trapped by our sinful nature, we will struggle with sin.  As John wrote in 1 John 1:6-10 "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

So the result of repentance will lead to a changed life and a mark of a Christian. 

True repentance moves us toward a love of God and the salvation that He has provided through His Son, Jesus Christ.   A truly repentant heart hates sin and seeks godliness.   A true repentant sinner is willing to be corrected and reproved, slow to judge others, and lives a life of humility.   True repentance is the destroyer of pride, as one becomes more aware of the holiness and righteousness of God and his standards the reality sets in of how we cannot save ourselves and we depend upon the grace and mercy of God. 

As we get closer to a Holy God, the world may look upon us -- and say, "Wow, He's living a holy life!"  And from the outside, we appear to be holier, and more righteous -- but from the inside, the closer we get to the presence of God a much different thing takes place.  We become as what the Prophet Isaiah must have felt when he was in the presence of God and cried out, "Woe is me, for I am a man of unclean lips" [Isaiah 6:5]

A very unique thing takes place in the heart of a genuine Christian walking out a lifestyle of repentance, as one prays in that intimate place with God ... asking God to "search me, and know my heart and my thoughts and see if there be any wicked way in me" [Psalms 139:24-25] is coming to a vital realization of how Holy our God is. 

It is in this state of repentance that the Spirit of God can truly move in an individual as Peter stressed in the second aspect of repentance in Acts 3:19-20, ... "that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord."   The word, refreshing, in Greek literally means 'fresh breath' or better understood as 'revival'.

When one lives in a lifestyle of repentance, it will create within an individual a life full of vigor, revival, and refreshment that becomes contagious ... and this is how true revival begins within oneself.

I hope this helps in the discussion,

God bless,

George