Eternal torment or eternal death

[Daniel Marsh]

"For example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is often mistakenly thought to be a parable even though the text does not say it is a parable, it is not in the context of other parables being taught, it teaches explicitly about the afterlife, and it names real people such as Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses are used in the story (Luke 16:19-31). "  https://drivethruhistoryadventures.com/parables-in-the-ancient-world-and-the-gospels/

 

Matthew 25:46 says eternal life and eternal torture.  You can't cut off one eternal without doing so for the other eternal since they are the same word and same grammar. 

 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Parable of the Sower - Matthew 13:3-8 people who sow exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Weeds - Matthew 13:24-30 weeds  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Mustard Seed - Matthew 13:31-32 seed  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Yeast - Matthew 13:33 yeast  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Hidden Treasure - Matthew 13:44 treasure  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Pearl - Matthew 13:45-46 pearls  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Fishing Net - Matthew 13:47-50 nets  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Unmerciful Servant - Matthew 18:23-35 people  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard - Matthew 20:1-16 workers  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Two Sons - Matthew 21:28-32 sons  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Tenants - Matthew 21:33-46 tenants  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Wedding Banquet - Matthew 22:1-14 weddings  exists and is real life examples

Wise and Faithful Servants - Matthew 24:45-51 people  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Ten Virgins - Matthew 25:1-13 I am not sure if virgins still exists

Parable of the Talents - Matthew 25:14-30 talents  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Growing Seed - Mark 4:26-29 seeds  exists and is real life examples

Traveling Owner of the House - Mark 13:34-37 houses  exists and is real life examples

New Cloth on an Old Coat - Luke 5:36 clothes  exists and is real life examples

New Wine in Old Wineskins - Luke 5:37-38 wine  exists and is real life examples

Wise and Foolish Builders - Luke 6:47-49 workers  exists and is real life examples

Forgiven Debts - Luke 7:36-50 debts  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Good Samaritan - Luke 10:25-37 people  exists and is real life examples

Friend at Midnight - Luke 11:5-10 friends may  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Rich Fool - Luke 12:16-21 rich people  exists and is real life examples

Unfruitful Fig Tree - Luke 13:6-9 trees  exists and is real life examples

Jesus at a Pharisee's House - Luke 14:7-11 ???  exists and is real life examples

Parable of the Great Banquet - Luke 14:16-24   Food exists and is real and is real life examples

Parable of the Lost Sheep - Luke 15:3-7 shepherds and sheep exists and is real and is real life examples

Parable of the Lost Coin - Luke 15:8-10 coins exists and is real  and is real life examples

Parable of the Lost Son - Luke 15:11-32 Sons exists and is real  and is real life examples

Parable of the Shrewd Manager - Luke 16:1-12  Managers exists and is real  and is real life examples

Parable of the Persistent Widow - Luke 18: 1-8  women exists and is real  and is real life examples

Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector - Luke 18:9-14  people exists and is real  and is real life examples

Parable of the Good Shepherd - John 10: 1-5 and 11-18  Shepherds exists and is real  and is real life examples

 

Jesus uses things and people who exists in real life of his day.    

 

[Prycejosh1987]

On 5/24/2020 at 12:43 PM, Ervin P said:

I sometimes wonder if there is eternal torment or eternal death to come for anyone who is not saved. I hope it’s eternal death.

il post a few verses,  in favour of either:

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The above seems to be quite clear, but it’s obvious that not everything in the Bible is always literal.

Then

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

And also:

Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.

Anyway, I am interested in your thoughts on the question of what is for those that won’t be saved.

 Thanks 

 

 

Of course eternal death does not apply. There is no scripture that applies to this thinking, it says that the soul is eternal,for there to be eternal death, in the sense that some people including jehovahs witnesses, to soul would have to not be eternal. If people exist in heaven in every way people would have to exist in hell in every way too.

[Daniel Marsh]

Goats and Lambs both have DNA, legs, eyes, etc.,   It makes sense if Lambs are raised with an body that can not be destroyed then so will Goats have a body that can not be destroyed. 

Read I Cor 15 to learn about the bodies.

 

 

[enoob57]

To be perfectly clear in all this: It is image that does not allow for cessation of existence as clearly 'created in God's Image reflects' if one takes the position of negating this truth then the burden lies upon them to produce the Scripture that allows us to think otherwise... to this date I have been given no such!

[other one]

Eternal torment or eternal death?

 

don't know, don't care, don't intend to find out.

Doesn't pertain to me at all.

 

[LuftWaffle]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:45 AM, OneLight said:

As scripture is laid out, there are arguments for both sides.  You can find whatever you want to support your personal belief, which is why I don't really take a solid-  unmovable stance on the subject.  I would like to believe they just cease to exist, but too many scriptures state differently.  Sure, I could say - that's not what it really means - but would I not be placing my personal beliefs above scripture by making such a claim when bother sides are supported?  We will just have to wait and see, won't we.

My apologies for only responding now, I've had a busy week.

Something that I find interesting about this whole discussion is how readily proponents of eternal conscious torment are willing to accuse those who disagree with them of putting their personal beliefs above that of scripture, even though they do not know anything about their opponents or how they came to their beliefs. I used to be an ardent eternal conscious torment supporter because I've been involved in apologetics for quite some time, but I have studied the subject and have found that the scriptural evidence in favour of Conditional Immortality overwhelming. 

In terms of there being too many scriptures that support eternal conscious torment, I have found just the opposite. There are only about 5 or 6 prooftexts for eternal conscious torment and when read against the biblical context virtually every single one of them provides stronger support for Conditional Immortality. The often quoted worms not dying and unquenchable fire clearly refers to the slaughtered wicked's  corpses being consumed.  Jesus presents two options eternal life for the saved, and eternal punishment for the unsaved. The verse juxtaposes eternal life against the punishment which cannot also be eternal life for the wicked (just in a different location), and the bible clearly states what the eternal punishment is, it is death/destruction/perishing/ like chaff being burnt up.
As for the best proof texts for eternal conscious torment, these are taking apocalyptic symbols literally, while ignoring the fact that the interpreting angel informs John what these dream visions mean, they mean the second death, where the risen wicked will die a second time.

Besides the handful of proof-texts, eternal conscious torment relies on supporting beliefs that are assumed a priori, but have have no basis in scripture at all, such as that the unsaved are immortal (Platonism), that death = separation (Also Platonism), that crimes against an infinite God require infinite punishment (Acquinas) or that the wicked keep on sinning in hell, implying that God, who abhors sin, has somehow ensured that it would go on forever? Again, not a single one of these supporting doctrines of eternal conscious torment have any basis in scripture whatsoever.

Compare that to the every verse that depicts in plain language the death of the wicked, that they would perish, that they would go extinct, worms eating corpses, fire laying waste to God's enemies, wide is the way that leads to destruction, the unsaved burnt like chaff, etc. Not to mention, the sacrifice of Jesus, where Jesus took the punishment of death on our behalf, and the physical resurrection proving that death had been conquered. etc. etc. 
The mere fact that the Bible describes death as the final enemy to be destroyed is in itself a very strong case for Conditional Immortality, is it not?

So, sure one could make accusations about personal beliefs- or bias over scripture to shut down an opponent, just because one doesn't like what they believe, doesn't that in itself show an irrational bias?

[LuftWaffle]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:02 PM, Daniel Marsh said:

"For example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is often mistakenly thought to be a parable even though the text does not say it is a parable, it is not in the context of other parables being taught, it teaches explicitly about the afterlife, and it names real people such as Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses are used in the story (Luke 16:19-31). "  https://drivethruhistoryadventures.com/parables-in-the-ancient-world-and-the-gospels/

The story of the rich man and Lazarus has no bearing on the final state of the wicked. It is about Sheol/Hades as clearly evidenced by the fact that the rich man's brothers are still alive.
 

Quote

Matthew 25:46 says eternal life and eternal torture.  You can't cut off one eternal without doing so for the other eternal since they are the same word and same grammar. 

No, matthew 25:46 says eternal punishment. No mention of eternal torture in that verse at all. The saved get eternal life, the unsaved get a punishment which is the opposite is eternal life. What is the opposite of immortality? Death!

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Edited July 18, 2020 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

On 7/15/2020 at 4:06 PM, Prycejosh1987 said:

Of course eternal death does not apply. There is no scripture that applies to this thinking, it says that the soul is eternal,for there to be eternal death, in the sense that some people including jehovahs witnesses, to soul would have to not be eternal. If people exist in heaven in every way people would have to exist in hell in every way too.

Where does scripture teach that both the saved and the unsaved have immortality?

Mat_10:28  And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom_2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 

1Co_15:53  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 
1Co_15:54  When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 

1Ti_6:16  who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 

2Ti_1:10  and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 

Eternal life, immortality, life everlasting, are gifts given only to the saved.

[LuftWaffle]

12 hours ago, enoob57 said:

To be perfectly clear in all this: It is image that does not allow for cessation of existence as clearly 'created in God's Image reflects' if one takes the position of negating this truth then the burden lies upon them to produce the Scripture that allows us to think otherwise... to this date I have been given no such!

Perhaps you should engage with the argument I'm actually making, instead of swinging at a straw-man. Show me one instance where I argued 'cessation of existence'?
Just one.

I have always maintained that the unsaved will be executed and that immortality is a gift given only to the saved, and I have corrected you many times when you misrepresented my case.
But I understand why you're avoiding talking about life and death, because you know how many scriptures there are that say the unsaved will be killed. Instead you insist on pretending that I'm arguing that the unsaved will simply cease to exist, because straw-men are easy to defeat.

The longer you persist in avoiding the arguments I'm actually making the more you're showing a lack of substance behind all the bravado.
Life is all about choices, so you're welcome to either engage with the points I'm actually making thereby showing yourself to be an honest and gracious opponent and I would gladly answer where I can, or
You can pretend to have a disagreement with an imaginary opponent who isn't part of this discussion.

Edited July 18, 2020 by LuftWaffle