mlssufan01 Posted June 20, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/27/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 I want to stress something deeply ingrained in me....by the logic most of you have been using...I would argue that if we practice forgiveness this way; we will never ever be effective in sharing the Gospel. For the Gospel forgives the worst of sins and brings back to reconciliation. When sin becomes too grievous for us to associate with; we have ultimately said the other party is not worthy of our love. Paul murdered other Christians then preached to their families. Jesus knew Judas would betray him to the most grievous act in history and yet still dined with him as friend. In fact, it was after the mention of the betrayal that Jesus called him friend (whether or not they were after I could not tell you; I don't think we're given enough details). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted June 20, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said: "like they don't have a history you should be aware of." in other words; you are still holding them responsible for their past sins. My original sentiment was for someone who is clearly repentant; who made a mistake and owned up to; I am not referring to the person who is still living in the sin. Also they never were perfect, never will be, and none of us will be...it is unfair to hold such an expectation. No, not at all. See that's where I think you and I will simply disagree. Remember the story Jesus told, about the king and the servant who owed him money? Matthew 18:21. Remember this? Where the king forgave the servant who owed him to a ton of money, and the servant ran off, and started beating the guy that owed him a few bucks. So what was the problem? Was the problem that the servant who was forgiven that debt, refused to loan out money to someone else? No. The problem was, he refused to forgive the debt. If that servant, had another come and ask for money again, after refusing to pay him back the previous loan.... if all the servant did was not loan him money again... I don't think the King would have been angry about that. In fact, I doubt the King would loan that guy millions again. Just because he forgave the debt, doesn't mean the King is going to loan him another million. That's where reconciliation meets wise boundaries. If I loan you $10,000 dollars, and you blow it, and can't pay me back... Eventually I'll forgive you, and we can go out to eat for lunch of something. But I'm not loaning you money again. Not forgiving means, that I'm hounding you for the rest of your life, and holding it against you. I'm not doing that. But I'll not going to be an idiot, and loan you another $10K, over and over, and wonder why I'm broke and poor, and my family is homeless, because "I must forgive and loan money to people who use me and never pay back loans". Do you see my perspective, even if you disagree? And you say they owned up and repented. Well I'm not G-d. I don't know their heart like G-d does. You say they have completely changed their heart. I have to take your word for it, because I don't know them, and wasn't there. If you believe that, then you should act on what you just said, and reconcile completely. But I don't know that by looking at someone. And people say all kinds of things, and shed all kinds of tears. And then they do it again. I've seen it. It's happened to me. I have watched it happen to others. I've seen Christian people end up getting walked over like a door mat, a dozen times. And they're lives are wrecks. I just don't think that is what Jesus meant by forgive. Perhaps you do. We just disagree then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted June 20, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2020 19 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said: I want to stress something deeply ingrained in me....by the logic most of you have been using...I would argue that if we practice forgiveness this way; we will never ever be effective in sharing the Gospel. For the Gospel forgives the worst of sins and brings back to reconciliation. When sin becomes too grievous for us to associate with; we have ultimately said the other party is not worthy of our love. Paul murdered other Christians then preached to their families. Jesus knew Judas would betray him to the most grievous act in history and yet still dined with him as friend. In fact, it was after the mention of the betrayal that Jesus called him friend (whether or not they were after I could not tell you; I don't think we're given enough details). I agree with that. By the way, Paul was not just welcomed by the Christians either. It was some time, where he proved that he had been converted and changed. But up until Barnabas eventually brought Paul to the disciples, they stayed away from him. And rightly so... he was slaughtering Christians. The slight difference is this... if you are being directed by the holy spirit to do something... then you don't need to ask for wise advice. Just do what the holy spirit says. Ananias was told by the Lord to go to Paul. If G-d is telling you somehow, to reconcile with someone... you just do it. I would encourage you to ignore all my advice, and just do what the holy spirit of the Lord says to do. No question about it. But in the cases I mentioned about myself, that never happened. And I'm not G-d. I don't know that other person's heart. I'm not going to walk into the fire over and over, and wonder why my socks are charred all the time. Just my opinion. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlssufan01 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/27/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 21 hours ago, LonerAndy said: I agree with that. By the way, Paul was not just welcomed by the Christians either. It was some time, where he proved that he had been converted and changed. But up until Barnabas eventually brought Paul to the disciples, they stayed away from him. And rightly so... he was slaughtering Christians. The slight difference is this... if you are being directed by the holy spirit to do something... then you don't need to ask for wise advice. Just do what the holy spirit says. Ananias was told by the Lord to go to Paul. If G-d is telling you somehow, to reconcile with someone... you just do it. I would encourage you to ignore all my advice, and just do what the holy spirit of the Lord says to do. No question about it. But in the cases I mentioned about myself, that never happened. And I'm not G-d. I don't know that other person's heart. I'm not going to walk into the fire over and over, and wonder why my socks are charred all the time. Just my opinion. Nothing more. The problem with this statement is..the Holy Spirit DID tell you to do it...through Jesus...in the Sermon on the Mount; and again, through Paul, in Corinthians; and again, in Titus; and again, through Paul, in Galatians; and again, through Paul, in Ephesians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 54 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said: The problem with this statement is..the Holy Spirit DID tell you to do it...through Jesus...in the Sermon on the Mount; and again, through Paul, in Corinthians; and again, in Titus; and again, through Paul, in Galatians; and again, through Paul, in Ephesians. I was thinking about this last night, and I had a story come to mind. This is based on real events. I'm going to change it around a bit, but basically this happened. In fact there is a book about it. Let's say that you have a 13 year old daughter. And your neighbor next door is a wonderful church going Christian man. And you happen to be busy for whatever reason, and this man happens to go to work at the same time your child needs a ride to school. So he happily agrees just to pick up your daughter on the way into work, and drop her off at the school, as he goes. This goes on for a few years. Your daughter starts having some problems, and you take her to see someone, and it turns out she's been raped by this man for over a year. You can't prove it. Daughter refuses to say anything about the man. Can't take him to the police, no evidence. Can't do anything. The man for his part, prays for forgiveness. But he's still next door, still see him every day. Now you tell me... do you forgive, and reconcile, and let him drive your daughter to school? If not, why? You did before there was a history, and you are saying a Christian should forget that history. So you should let him continue to drive your daughter to school in the morning, by your own standard. Again, this based on a real event. You tell me... do you not let your daughter go with this man? If not, explain why you are changing behavior? Now if you tell me that you would continue to allow your daughter to go with this man, then this conversation is finished. I won't have anything to say to such an answer. If you say you would not let your daughter go with this man, then you, whether you admit it or not, are saying exactly what I'm saying. Edited June 21, 2020 by LonerAndy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.45 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2020 12 hours ago, mlssufan01 said: The problem with this statement is..the Holy Spirit DID tell you to do it...through Jesus...in the Sermon on the Mount; and again, through Paul, in Corinthians; and again, in Titus; and again, through Paul, in Galatians; and again, through Paul, in Ephesians. Even if a man is genuinely sorry for what he did wrong and does not want to do it again. If he clearly has a weakness, in whatever area of life it happens to be, then to put that man in a position in which he is likely to be tempted again, in that area of weakness, is both unwise and unloving. We can forgive such a person completely, whilst remembering what happened, what his area of weakness is, and altering our conduct with him accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlssufan01 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/27/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 12 hours ago, LonerAndy said: I was thinking about this last night, and I had a story come to mind. This is based on real events. I'm going to change it around a bit, but basically this happened. In fact there is a book about it. Let's say that you have a 13 year old daughter. And your neighbor next door is a wonderful church going Christian man. And you happen to be busy for whatever reason, and this man happens to go to work at the same time your child needs a ride to school. So he happily agrees just to pick up your daughter on the way into work, and drop her off at the school, as he goes. This goes on for a few years. Your daughter starts having some problems, and you take her to see someone, and it turns out she's been raped by this man for over a year. You can't prove it. Daughter refuses to say anything about the man. Can't take him to the police, no evidence. Can't do anything. The man for his part, prays for forgiveness. But he's still next door, still see him every day. Now you tell me... do you forgive, and reconcile, and let him drive your daughter to school? If not, why? You did before there was a history, and you are saying a Christian should forget that history. So you should let him continue to drive your daughter to school in the morning, by your own standard. Again, this based on a real event. You tell me... do you not let your daughter go with this man? If not, explain why you are changing behavior? Now if you tell me that you would continue to allow your daughter to go with this man, then this conversation is finished. I won't have anything to say to such an answer. If you say you would not let your daughter go with this man, then you, whether you admit it or not, are saying exactly what I'm saying. So, this would go back to the original posts--wherein I actually acknowledged anomaly situations such as these (abuse, rape) wherein I stated that I would agree reconciliation would not be wise in these specific cases of extreme sins; my original intent was more to the point where there has not been such extreme sin. Even then i still struggle to know for sure as Paul instructed the completely immoral man in Corinth to be reconciled (keep in mind, Corinth was known for it's extremely unbiblical sexual immorality). My case is largely based on the statisticsnthat the instructions of reconciliaton is the most disobeyed Scripture in the Bible; and from what I've seen, while SOME of it is due to extreme sin like the one you mention; the vast majority is out of pettiness and/or unforgiveness of the less extreme sins---and this is where I have the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlssufan01 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/27/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 58 minutes ago, David1701 said: Even if a man is genuinely sorry for what he did wrong and does not want to do it again. If he clearly has a weakness, in whatever area of life it happens to be, then to put that man in a position in which he is likely to be tempted again, in that area of weakness, is both unwise and unloving. We can forgive such a person completely, whilst remembering what happened, what his area of weakness is, and altering our conduct with him accordingly. Man will be tempted whether you put him somewhere or he goes somewhere. The devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to destroy. Nobody is exempt from temptation. You can take the cake away from the table but eventually I have to go to the grocery store where there's cake. In fact...actually personal application here...if I struggle with lust but do not act should I then not go to church because I will be tempted by females who are there? pretty wrong if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.45 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, mlssufan01 said: Man will be tempted whether you put him somewhere or he goes somewhere. The devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to destroy. Nobody is exempt from temptation. You can take the cake away from the table but eventually I have to go to the grocery store where there's cake. In fact...actually personal application here...if I struggle with lust but do not act should I then not go to church because I will be tempted by females who are there? pretty wrong if you ask me. None of this addresses what I posted. Avoiding temptation is scriptural. If a man struggles with lust, then it would be unwise for him to be alone with a woman; but being with a group would be much safer. As far as his thought-life is concerned, he will need to take that to the Lord in prayer. If he is feeding lustful thoughts, for example by looking at things he shouldn't on the Internet, then stopping that would help to starve the lust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlssufan01 Posted June 21, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/27/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, David1701 said: None of this addresses what I posted. Avoiding temptation is scriptural. If a man struggles with lust, then it would be unwise for him to be alone with a woman; but being with a group would be much safer. As far as his thought-life is concerned, he will need to take that to the Lord in prayer. If he is feeding lustful thoughts, for example by looking at things he shouldn't on the Internet, then stopping that would help to starve the lust. lol...no, no it wouldn't starve the lust. I am telling you this as someone who struggles with it. In fact after a bout with mental health I decided blocking those site on the internet would be wise. It did not eliminate my temptation because sin is not originated externally, it is originated in the human heart. Was I going out of my way to search for images? No. Was I awkwardly staring at women in church? No. In fact, I did a pretty good job of hiding it. But when alone, the struggle is still there, probably even more intensely then when I had access to those blocked sites. Now, is it wise to enter a sinful-themed shop overtly explicit things to trigger my temptations? of course not. But I am to avoid it altogeter? actually...I would argue no, for 2 reasons. Firstly, Jesus went into the desert TO BE TEMPTED. Though He would not sin. If going into a temptation is a sin, then you're calling Jesus a sinner...and that can't be possible. Secondly, especially in the area of lust...it is virtually impossible to go anywhere without being tempted. Walk down the street, see a woman in lewd clothing. Maybe I work in a mall (I did for a bit); how many Victoria's Secret images you think I saw? Could I even possibly go to the beach? Then you add the shear disobedience of Christians when it comes to premarital sex, 65% willfully engaging in it without any conviction (I don't support this view, but it can raise a lot of "why" questions). For lust, to avoid it altogether would be t never leave your house and never associate with anybody. And this is why I say avoiding temptation is nigh impossible. In fact, in Genesis, God said that the thoughts and intentions of man's heart are evil continually, all day long. Edited June 21, 2020 by mlssufan01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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