Wine.......

[apothanein kerdos]

I don't think getting drunk is always a sin...but in the modern world it's almost impossible to not sin by getting drunk.

For instance, in not too distant times, dentist, before pulling a tooth, would get the patient drunk in order to deaden the pain. Surgeon's also used this technique. Likewise, someone who was dying from pain would be given enough wine to get htem drunk, so they would slip away peacefully. So it can't be wrong in every case, however, someone downing 10 shots of Vodka in less than an hour can't exactly be doing it for honorable reasons.

[Artemus Prime]

Not to steal the thunder from the serious-ness of your post, but

The ten-shots-of-Vodka thing was great!

AP

[Remnantrob]

Wow you guys work fast. I close my eyes and BAM, a bunch of responses.

Okay where should I start.........How 'bout here:

I really don't want to de-rail this thread but I have to respond. Yomo...no one thinks you are a drunk but at 14 you shouldn't be drinking at all...especially since you are under the legal age limit. That violates not only man's laws but God's laws. Not to mention the fact that it's not good for someone your age. Something for you to consider.

If consumption of alcohol is not a sin, why is a problem when you hear about a 14 year old or any child drinking just a little. Yes its against the law, but for what reason? Is it because although if taken "responsibly" it still is a drug? I'm sure that on a whole we as christians are against drugs, but it seems that because this is legal and socially acceptable that it isn't a problem as long as you're old enough to make that decision. If you have to be a certain age to be "responsible enough" to drink it then I think that it is a problem for both young and old. You might come up with a few statistics on a health benefit of a little wine but if you weigh the pro's and con's I'm sure you'd come up with more negatives.

Jesus drank wine;

I have a problem with this because if fermentation is the grape juice going from pure to alcohol then it seems like we're saying that Jesus' blood is tainted. The blood that washes our sins is fermented. As I stated before, fermentation/leavening is something the jews kept out of their passover because it was equated to sin. So why would Christ use something symbolically sinful as representive of his blood. Even when he was offered alcohol during his crucifixion he refused because he didn't want to be inebriated while experience the death we deserved. That would have kinda taken away from the sacrifice he made, right?

[Guest Zayit]

The water turned to wine by Yeshua was actual wine, not just grape juice

Okay, here's a quote from one of my favorite pastors Doug Batchelor on the subject

The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a "loophole" to justify drinking alcohol.

An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine-after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine-right? But let's pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That's up to 180 gallons of beverage!

Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug-enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed, He would have been acting against His own Word (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:45; Ephesians 5:18)! If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine-and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality (John 2:4-10).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apparently this man doesn't know the Jewish Jesus, or the background of Jewish weddings, see a Jewish wedding is a community event, not just your relatives and friends, who you like, but every one in the town of Cana was there. He says imagine what this amount would do, well imagine drinking a lot of grape juice, frankly I couldn't drink more than one glass of it.

[Orr v'emet]

If consumption of alcohol is not a sin, why is a problem when you hear about a 14 year old or any child drinking just a little.

[Guest shiloh357]

Matt. 2:17, 26, 27. The Lord's supper was institued at the passover supper. I believe it was unfermented, because notheing ferment was allowing in their houses.

This is factually incorrect. Passover seders always have used real wine, not grape juice. It is leaven that is not allowed in the home. Leaven is a particular comes from a particular kind of fermenation, but "fermentaition" was not as a general rule disallowed. I am Jewish and have led many Passover seders. You will find very few seders that do not include genuine wine. In many cases, they will offer both wine and grape juice for those who physical constitution does not allow them to consume wine.

[Trust & Obey]

did he drink alcohol or grape juice?  Elementary my dear Watson...

I don't believe Christ to be an advocate of something so destructive so my vote is grape juice.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the wine was clearly alcoholic which is why it says it says "after they were well drunk."

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Second, if it wasn't alcoholic then why isn't an bishop to be given to it?

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Also see Titus 1:7

And, an elder isn't to be given to "much wine."

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

If it's grape juice that is spoken of, then why the prohibition for bishops and the limitation for deacons?

[Ovedya]

I'm too lazy to search the forum to see if this topic was discussed in latter years but if so, Please direct me to it Mr./Mrs. Moderator.

[Khristeeanos]

Matthew 11:17-19

17" 'We played the flute for you,

      and you did not dance;

  we sang a dirge

      and you did not mourn.' 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Jesus drank something that caused the legalists to call him a drunkard.....

HMMMMMM.........................

[apothanein kerdos]

The water turned to wine by Yeshua was actual wine, not just grape juice

Okay, here's a quote from one of my favorite pastors Doug Batchelor on the subject

The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a "loophole" to justify drinking alcohol.

An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine-after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine-right? But let's pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That's up to 180 gallons of beverage!

Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug-enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed, He would have been acting against His own Word (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:45; Ephesians 5:18)! If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine-and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality (John 2:4-10).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apparently this man doesn't know the Jewish Jesus, or the background of Jewish weddings, see a Jewish wedding is a community event, not just your relatives and friends, who you like, but every one in the town of Cana was there. He says imagine what this amount would do, well imagine drinking a lot of grape juice, frankly I couldn't drink more than one glass of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo. If drinking wine with alcohol was considered a sin, what did the moyl use to deaden the pain