Raptured

[Uriah]

On 7/10/2020 at 11:23 PM, Da Puppers said:

On a different, I would like everyone to consider the following question:

Does the great rapture passage of 1Thess4 automatically mean a simultaneous resurrection? (equivalent to that found in 1Cor 15).

Consider the following:

1.  Is the trumpet of 1Thess4 the same as the last trumpet of 1Cor15?

2.  Where is the coming of Jesus in 1Cor15?

3. Where is the kingdom in 1Thess4?

4.[Here is the biggie].  Does it say that the SAINTS are resurrected in 1Thess4?  In 1Cor15, where the resurrection is extensively and unequivocally discussed, [I will not post all the occurences], the resurrection of our bodies, and christ's body is described by the use of the word egeiro, G1453, which literally means to be awoken from sleep...26 times in the first 52 verses.   Metaphorically speaking, our resurrection is spoken of as just that, awaking from the sleep of death.  And when we turn to 1Thess4, Paul says this:

 1Th 4:13-15 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP

There is no question that those here referred to as asleep/sleep that he further refers to them as the "dead in Christ".  So, when Paul says that those who believe that Christ "rose again", and that the "dead in Christ" SHALL RISE first, do you think that Paul said those who are ASLEEP shall arise...egeiro from their sleep?  He absolutely did not.  Paul did NOT say that we who believe that Christ "awoke from sleep"[egeiro].  Nor did he say that the dead in christ shall "awake from sleep" [egeiro] first.  It would never be more appropriate, nor would it be any clearer than to use the word egeiro, IF the resurrection was the intended thought.  But he didn't use egeiro in either instance, most notably when he was directly alluding to those (in Christ) who were sleeping in death at the time of Christs coming.  I told you this was a biggie.  

When the son of man,  in Dan 7, is seen coming in the clouds of heaven GOING TO the Father, (with no one seen accompanying him), it is only afterward that he is given the kingdom:

 Dan 7:13-14 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

When of Jesus it  is said (in 1Thess4) that God will bring with him those sleeping in Christ,  would they not be seen descending with Christ?  The answer is no because of the simple reason that Christ received his glorified body when he rose again to the Father.  Our more enduring substance is found in the heavens,  Heb 10:34.  As 1Cor15 makes clear, we are conferred immortality in accordance with the coming kingdom of Christ.   Christ is given the kingdom when he presents to the Father, those found worthy of the kingdom, 2Thess 1:5-10, 1Thess 3:13. (before God the Father with all the saints).  

What do we find when the 7th and last trumpet is blown and the kingdom of God has come?  Judgment of the dead and rewarding the SAINTS and prophets.

Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Receiving a glorified immortal body before Christ is given the kingdom is contrary to the plan of god.  A simultaneous rapture and resurrection is also contrary to the events of 1Thess4 and 1Cor15.

Be Blessed 

The PuP

Hi upper

Now it becomes obvious. You create an argument from silence, a debaters' tactic which is a known logical fallacy, by immediately pointing to things that it doesn't say -so you can say that it DOES-say what you say. 

Why not read what it says, and believe the scriptures?

[DeighAnn]

On 6/26/2020 at 4:19 PM, Marilyn C said:

1. Seeing the Day of the Lord, (time period) approaching.

`Brethren, you are NOT in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...but exhorting, (encouraging & warning) one another, and so much the more as YOU SEE the day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

2. The Lord descends with those asleep in Him.  (no angels)

`For the Lord Himself shall descend...` `God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14 & 15)

...that this Day should overtake you.   How is this Day NOT to overtake us?  This day is not to overtake us "AS A THIEF"   

Does this say this day shall not overtake us?  No.   This day is to come with OUR FULL KNOWLEDGE of what is going on. 

this Day will overtake us, just NOT in an unexpecting,  unknowing way.  
 

 

1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

SO THE day does not come to us "as a thief".  Day does come to us though.  
 

1Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

WHEN does the day come to us?  WHEN WE hear Peace and safety. 
WHY ARE we hearing Peace and safety?  Because the whole world is worshipping after Satan.  The world believes all his lies.  He is performing miracles.  The world is as one under his authority and rule. 

WELL except for those two witnesses.  And the remnant/elect. 

AND now when THE TRUE CHRIST returns, on the Lords Day, the day of vengeance, sudden destruction COMES UPON THEM,  just them,
NOT US.  

WE will be JUST AS  Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary.   Not a hair on our head will be touched.  I truly believe with all my heart that they went through that for the explicit purpose for GOD to SHOW us, HE'S GOT THIS.  There is nothing going to happen to us that He can't handle.  

Gods Wrath doesn't fall upon those who love Him.  It doesn't fall upon those who have not received the mark of the beast.  ONLY THEM who have not received the love of His Word.  Who have not seeked after Him, His truth. 
 

1Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

WE are going to be OBSERVANT of the times.  We are going to know who is who, what is what and when is when.  We are going to recognize the beast.  We are not going to buy and sell in that system because the requirement will be to worship the false one to do so. 

We will hear the preaching of the two witnesses.  THEY will be here to lead and guide us the whole way through.   Remember, two witnesses arrive first.  And I never forget "there is silence in heaven" when Satan is cast out.  ALL eyes on us.  Oh how exciting a time it will be.  As close as we will ever get to have been living when Jesus walked the earth.  To be able to truly WORK for the Lord.  To be someone God would use to do His will.  MY GOD, the honor of it all.  We can only hope we will be here for it all.  

What is the subject of 1 THES 4?   

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


(no angels)?

We have two bodies.  An earthly and a spiritual.  ALL THOSE returning with Christ are "angels".  That is why "we WILL BE CHANGED" into our celestial/angelic/spiritual bodies, in the twinkling of an eye.  Heaven is coming to earth.  ALL will be in their spiritual bodies from that point on or until...  CHRIST is risen.  

 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

If you want to ignore what is written between verses 4 and 10, then your view would be correct.

"For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”"

Verse list: Gen 7:5-9 KJV And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him. And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

AND NOAH WENT IN,

and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives WITH HIM, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

THERE WENT IN

two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female,

AS GOD had COMMANDED NOAH.

"And AFTER seven days thefloodwaters came upon the earth

You SUPPOSE that they went in?

It is only supposition if you ignore what verse 5 to 9  is referring to.  When did God command Noah to enter the ark? The day of the flood or 7 days before? When did verses 5 thru 9 take place?  The day of the flood or 7 days before?   

So if Noah and the animals went in the ark in 2 by 2 fashion, on the SELFSAME day as the flood,  you need to explain verse 10 and what happened 7 days before. 

Gen 7:10 KJV And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Selfsame can only mean, especially since you believe that it was the selfsame day as the flood.  So unless you want to jump around time,  as you assert that I am doing,  Then God commanded Noah on one day,  and Noah entered 7 days later. Do you really think that this is what the text is saying? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Gen 7:2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

-----------------a space between the verses that speak of before and after the 7 days----------------------

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

----------------stand alone statement about the day of disaster when the waters came-------------------

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

--------------------a restatement of the day that the waters came and what Noah and family did-----------------

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

-------------------------------------a statement that summarizes their making it to safety-------------------------

Your version says by v. 9 they are in the ark. The segmented view with the repetitions more isolated show the same story being told and further details given.  

Look at v.7 &v.13. See the re-telling?

V. 8 & v. 14. Same thing.

 

So, it is not hard to see that there is repetition with further detail. One flood, one day. 

Forty days are repeated, entering is repeated, family is repeated, animals are repeated. Noah doing all that God commanded, repeated.  

What was happening on the day Noah entered? No rain?

The first segment tells the whole story (pre telling), AFTER the 7 days, the story is told again with a dramatic - just in time - closure. This matches how Jesus compared "the day" Noah entered to that of Lot being taken out of Sodom.

You can deny this to save the pre trib theory but it takes convoluted methodology, and denies/falsifies the words of Jesus.

[Uriah]

Verse 1.

Why avoid what Jesus said? He didn't speak of God commanding, it was about THE DAY Noah entered. There are 2 references to that in the chapter. You say that he entered the first day, I say the 7th.

God commanded in v. 1.   V. 9 says he carried it out.   V. 16 shows him carrying it out-after the 7 days. Like I said, you have re-stating sentences here but you avoid it. You somehow slice out the "selfsame day" and send it backwards even though it is a narrative following a timeline through Genesis. Look at the evidence-selfsame day- after 7 days- no shell game needed.

[Uriah]

16 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

At Jesus's resurrection, they occurred virtually simultaneously but they are not the same thing.

This is your point? What does this mean? I am not sure what you are saying. Could you make your thesis in one concise sentence?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It is only supposition if you ignore what verse 5 to 9  is referring to.  When did God command Noah to enter the ark? The day of the flood or 7 days before? When did verses 5 thru 9 take place?  The day of the flood or 7 days before?   

I'm not ignoring anything. I said previously: "I suppose we could say Noah and the animals were in the ark 7 days prior based on the above, but the next bit pretty much refutes that." What's being ignored is the specific date; a thematic condition it seems to me on this site is to ignore timing. The clearer the timing is presented the more resistance, like an inverse property. 

In all of Gen 7:1-10 we don't see specific timing for the start of the flood except for 7 days. Then in Gen 7:11 we have, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." One must realize this is that 7th day the Lord spoke about in Gen 7:4, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; " And in Gen 7:10, "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were on the earth." It's clear from the text this 7th day is 600 year's, 2 month's, 17 days into Noah's life.

 In the selfsame day can only refer to the day in Gen 7:11. That's the direct antecedent. The idea of 7 days refers to the 600, 2 and 17 for when the flood begins, the text says on the 600, 2 and 17 the underground geysers were opened and the rain began. Then the text says on the same day and some want to predate it. I'm fine with that unless the text refutes that idea, which it does.

The word translated "In the selfsame..." carries an inseparable quality. It's like the day and the person, or the action, are one; not just a happening on some day that can be changed on a whim.

 

 

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Verse list: Gen 7:5-9 KJV And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him. And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

So was Noah 600 years old when the flood came? 600 years and one month old? This is making a general statement about when the flood occurred; in the 600th year of Noah's life. This doesn't affect the truth that the flood didn't begin until the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day. The reasoning used for the 7 days is the same and it's not what the text says.

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Selfsame can only mean, especially since you believe that it was the selfsame day as the flood.  So unless you want to jump around time,  as you assert that I am doing,  Then God commanded Noah on one day,  and Noah entered 7 days later. Do you really think that this is what the text is saying? 

It's sort of the same thing as Noah being commanded to build the ark. That took one hundred years. When are you going to say the ark was built? Day one of construction? The 95th year? On what ever day Noah entered the ark he would be obeying the Lord's command. 

12 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Verse list: Gen 7:5-9 KJV And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him. And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

 

and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives WITH HIM, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

Of course Noah did all the Lord commanded. There no assertion here it happened on any certain day. I for one don't think all the animals were loaded in a day, the food wasn't loaded in a day surely.

Noah was in and out of the ark thousands of times, him and his entire family. It's no doubt the animals showed up months beforehand, food was being loaded well in advance of the day of the flood. Noah did all God commanded him, as you point out. So 7 days prior every animal was loaded on the same day and only on that day? Or are you saying Noah had all the animals loaded prior to the day?  The text doesn't say that. Verse 7 says,"...because of the waters of the flood." which didn't happen for 7 more days. If Noah was in the ark how did he take in the animals? Which from what you suggest only happened in a 7 day period.

In any case none of this means there is a 7 year trib, a pretrib rapture, etc. 

 

[Justin Adams]

The Lord High God leaves breadcrumbs scattered all over scriptures for us to seek out.

Noah’s Ark and the Events of The Flood

600th Year of Noah to the Rainbow Covenant

Friday September 13 – Tishri 1, 2458 BC

Maybe the Tishri 1 is a clue since the Messiah's birth appears to be 'on the day kings are crowned'.

Yeshua mentioned Noah quite pointedly.

In Revelation 12:1-6 the Apostle John is presenting something of great significance in a symbolic way. The date of September 11, 3 BC was Tishri 1 on the Jewish calendar in 3 BC.  Tishri 1 is, of course, the 1st day of the first Jewish month. This date is also called Yom Teruah: The Day of Trumpets; the Feast of Trumpets; and Rosh Hashanah: Head of the Year, or Feast of the New Year.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Justin Adams

[WilliamL]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:32 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/11/2020 at 10:12 PM, The Light said:

Correct. It's simple enough. Noah was on the ark 7 days before the flood.

Only through mental gymnastics, logical tap dancing, and a healthy dose of wishful thinking.

 

On 7/12/2020 at 8:44 PM, Da Puppers said:

God commanded in v. 1.   V. 9 says he carried it out.  

And 7 days later the flood came. (Verse 10)  If verse 1 is 7 days before the flood,  so is verses 5-9.  Talk about a convoluted mess.  I'm done here. 

The PuP 

Other sources help to flesh out the events of this week.

The Book of Jasher 6:1-10 describes how God brought all of the animals to the ark, of which Noah selected pairs and brought them inside. Then,

11 ...On that day [the 10th] the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains of the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before... 13 And at the end of seven days, in the 600th year of the life of Noah, the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 14 ...and the rain was upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights.

Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 108b, records this history of the time: "Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order, and the sun rose in the west and set in the east."

This was a pole reversal, of which a number of different ancient cultures say there were four in historical times. I could go over the extensive evidence if I chose, but too much bother. Suffice it to note that the description of that day is quite comparable to the events of the 6th Seal described in Rev. 6:12-14 and Matt. 24:29.

So apparently what occurred, taking all the accounts together, biblical and historical, is that Noah and the animals entered the ark on the 10th day – Noah and family due to the inclement weather of that day – and while the animals stayed inside, Noah and his family probably came in and out later in the week, until the flood commenced on the 17th, when they went in for good.

Most folks presume that the descent of Christ in the clouds of heaven, the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture will take place on the same day, but Scripture no where explicitly says so. Even at Mount Sinai, the LORD descended in fire and quake etc. on the Sabbath, but Moses and the others were not called up onto the mountain until the next day. And when Moses went up on the mount, he did not enter into the Presence until the 7th day. So while this is not a prediction, I suggest that a similar sequence may well take place in the End Times, so that everything will not be fulfilled in a single day.

Edited July 21, 2020 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

 

Other sources help to flesh out the events of this week.

The Book of Jasher 6:1-10 describes how God brought all of the animals to the ark, of which Noah selected pairs and brought them inside. Then,

11 ...On that day [the 10th] the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains of the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before... 13 And at the end of seven days, in the 600th year of the life of Noah, the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 14 ...and the rain was upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights.

Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 108b, records this history of the time: "Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order, and the sun rose in the west and set in the east."

This was a pole reversal, of which a number of different ancient cultures say there were four in historical times. I could go over the extensive evidence if I chose, but too much bother. Suffice it to note that the description of that day is quite comparable to the events of the 6th Seal described in Rev. 6:12-14 and Matt. 24:29.

So apparently what occurred, taking all the accounts together, biblical and historical, is that Noah and the animals entered the ark on the 10th day – Noah and family due to the inclement weather of that day – and while the animals stayed inside, Noah and his family probably came in and out later in the week, until the flood commenced on the 17th, when they went in for good.

Most folks presume that the descent of Christ in the clouds of heaven, the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture will take place on the same day, but Scripture no where explicitly says so. Even at Mount Sinai, the LORD descended in fire and quake etc. on the Sabbath, but Moses and the others were not called up onto the mountain until the next day. And when Moses went up on the mount, he did not enter into the Presence until the 7th day. So while this is not a prediction, I suggest that a similar sequence may well take place in the End Times, so that everything will not be fulfilled in a single day.

Talmud? You can't be serious. 

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Talmud? You can't be serious. 

Oh, you are one of those?

A historical source is a historical source. 99+% of everything we know about the Roman Empire, for example, comes from historical sources. You want to delete all that from your understanding, and all the rest of ancient history other than that found in the Bible, go ahead. But you will be one ignorant man.

Incidentally, the quote from the Talmud above is not the only such quote from it on the subject of the pole reversal at the time of the Flood. (Not that they called it that; they just recorded what they saw, but did not understand it.) The Talmud is the compendium of Jewish lore up unto the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 AD. You want to throw out that vast body of information, your loss.

Edited July 21, 2020 by WilliamL