Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Kristin]

I read the OP and will say I never labeled myself. I believe that most of mankind are on the broad road to perdition. I also believe we must yell the saving Gospel to whoever will hear. I think everyone in America has heard it and decided. Unless God moves in a person’s heart, it falls on deaf ears. The Bible says most will end up in the pit, few receive salvation. It’s the saddest thing in the history of the world. 
But God can and does do miracles and saves who He chooses. It’s a mystery, but grand in every way. Why would He save those who hate Him and hate anything that is true and good?  Look around you. The people love sin and are overcome with greed and pride. It’s no accident that sodomites and vulgar people march in “pride parades”. They don’t want God anywhere near them. All we can do is testify and pray. God have mercy on me, a sinner. 

[David1701]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

Wow. You guys NEVER check the Greek, do you?! First, understand that ...

the Greek word for "soul" is "psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta," and
the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma," spelled "pi-nu-epsilon-upsilon-mu-alpha."

In all of 1 Corinthians chapters 2, 3, 9, 10, 12, 14, and 15, these words have been modified to be ADJECTIVES: "psuchikos," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-iota-kappa-omicron-sigma," and ...
"pneumatikos," spelled "pi-nu-epsilon-upsilon-mu-alpha-tau-iota-kappa-omicron-sigma." And, sometimes, by changing the omicron to an omega, modified to be ADVERBS.

We've got a word, "spiritual," but we DON'T have an adequate word for "psuchikos." It should be something like "soulual," but for some reason, we didn't get that word. Instead, we got "natural," as though "nature" = "soul." Go figure.

The truth is that NEITHER "spiritual" nor "natural/soulual" are adequate translations of these words. When one goes to chapter 15, one will see how the words were used with regard to the Resurrection.

Thanks for the insult.

I have checked the Greek and I have studied this subject.

1 Cor. 2:14,15 (EMTV)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no man.

Here is a brief quote from my Robertson's Word Pictures, about verse 14.

    " Now the natural man  (ψυχικος δε ανθρωπος). Note absence of article here, "A natural man" (an unregenerate man). Paul does not employ modern psychological terms and he exercises variety in his use of all the terms here present as πνευμα and πνευματικοσ, ψυχη and ψυχικοσ, σαρξ and σαρκινος and σαρκικος. ...
Spirit, Soul, and Flesh.  The papyri furnish so many examples of σαρξ, πνευμα, and ψυχη that Moulton and Milligan make no attempt at an exhaustive treatment, but give a few miscellaneous examples to illustrate the varied uses that parallel the New Testament. Ψυχικος is a qualitative adjective from ψυχη (breath of life like ανιμα, life, soul). Here the Vulgate renders it by animalis and the German by sinnlich, the original sense of animal life as in Judg 1:19; Jas 3:15. In 1Cor 15:44; 1Cor 15:46 there is the same contrast between ψυχικος and πνευματικος as here. The ψυχικος man is the unregenerate man while the πνευματικος man is the renewed man, born again of the Spirit of God."

Here is Thayer's Lexicon's definition of psuchikos (translated as "natural" in 1 Cor. 2:14, in several translations).

"- Original: ψυχικός
- Transliteration: Psuchikos
- Phonetic: psoo-khee-kos'
- Definition:   
1.  of or belonging to breath   
-a.  having the nature and characteristics of the breath   
--1.  the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes   
-b.  governed by breath   
--1.  the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion"

From RWP and Thayer's, we can see that "natural man" is quite a good translation.  When referring to a person, it means a man governed by his soulish appetites and passions (i.e. an unregenerate man).

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by David1701

[luigi]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, luigi.

Oh, brother. LOOK AT THE CONTRAST!!! The "children of the flesh" were those who were born of Avraham ("Abraham") by fleshly means - human attempts to "help God out" with His promise. These included Ishma'el and his heirs and all the children of his later concubine Ketuvah! The "children of the promise" were Yitschaq ("Isaac") and his heirs! Paul then further subdivides these "children of the promise" into the children of Esav ("Esau," who was hated by God) and the children of Ya`aqov ("Jacob," who was loved by God) who became Yisra'el ("Israel"), in verses 10-13!

This has NOTHING to do with a "spiritual Israel!"

Good morning and peace Retrobyter, Romans 8:5-8 is quite clear as to who are the Lord's people and who are not. They who are spiritually inclined are the Lord's people, and they who are fleshly minded are not. It has nothing to do with carnal heredity. 

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[luigi]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, luigi.

OR RATHER, it's because the "gospel" that is "preached" today is LACKING the "gospel of the Kingdom!" By not truly heralding the "gospel of the Kingdom," the "gospel of the Kingdom" has YET TO BE "preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations!" By not heralding the TRUE Kingdom to come, we have been FAILING to spread that message to all nations!

Again, tie together the messages of Yeshayahuw ("Isaiah") and Sha`uwl ("Saul," surnamed "Paul"):

Isaiah 52:1-10 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus saith the LORD,

"Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money."

4 For thus saith the Lord GOD,

"My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 
5 Now therefore, what have I here," saith the LORD, "that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl," saith the LORD; "and my name continually every day is blasphemed! 
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I!"

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (gospel), that publisheth salvation (rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (rescue; deliverance) of our God!

Romans 10:8-15 (KJV)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach (herald); 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (your Master is Yeshua`), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (rescued; delivered). 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (rescue; deliverance). 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (disappointed)." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For

"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (rescued; delivered)." (Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (a herald; town cryer)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7)

And, if you need more convincing, look at the context of Joel 2:32!

Joel 2:12-32; 3:1-21 (KJV)

12 "Therefore also now," saith the LORD, "turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:" 

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say,

"Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, 'Where is their God?'"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 

1 "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border! 

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it."

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about:

thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD."

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 

18 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 "But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion."

Paul USED this context in Romans 10; he didn't CONTRADICT it, nor did he HIJACK it for his own purposes!

I will stick to believing "Love my neighbor as myself" to represent the true Gospel of Christ. This Gospel of love will be preached when all false Messiah's and their systems that claim will solve the world's ills, fail.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, David1701.

To my comment,

Quote

A person black with sin and bad practices may or may not be a POTENTIAL believer! He may look like a Hell's Angel biker on the outside and be struggling with conviction on the inside! One should not be quick to make judgment.

You said,

On 7/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, David1701 said:

This is a separate issue.

And, to my comment,

Quote

Take a look at Paul: He was a very religious and pious Jew, a "Separatist" = a "Paruwsh" = a "Pharisee," and a MURDERER! He was one of those the Scriptures say "thought He was doing God a favor." Yet, look at what one short meeting with the Messiah did for him!

You said,

On 7/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, David1701 said:

God can save anyone; but, until He does, the person is unsaved and unspiritual.

And, to my comment,

Quote

Furthermore, we've all met a person who looked, for all intents and purposes, like the "real deal" on the outside but was full of deceit, and left the faith when things didn't go as he or she expected. We don't really know who will comprise the set of "Believers" when the Messiah returns, and He asked,

You said,

On 7/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, David1701 said:

I always had doubts about the ones I know who went back into the world.  Being born again changes you inside DRAMATICALLY.  If this has happened, then there will be evidence of it.

I'm perceiving that you are ignoring the work of the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) in the life of an individual PRIOR to being born again.

Remember: Just as in the case of Ya`aqov and Esav ("Jacob and Esau"), God works with one whom He loves and ignores the one whom He hates.

The one who is under conviction for his or her crimes against God (sins), will probably yield to the Ruwach's prompting and come to be born again. The one who, for show, pretends to be "born again" God ignores and he or she was never truly feeling God's conviction for his or her sins.

To be "born again" may be an "internal, DRAMATIC change," but there is a period of "pregnancy," so to speak, as God draws one to Himself.

[David1701]

45 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

To my comment,

You said,

And, to my comment,

You said,

And, to my comment,

You said,

I'm perceiving that you are ignoring the work of the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) in the life of an individual PRIOR to being born again.

Remember: Just as in the case of Ya`aqov and Esav ("Jacob and Esau"), God works with one whom He loves and ignores the one whom He hates.

The one who is under conviction for his or her crimes against God (sins), will probably yield to the Ruwach's prompting and come to be born again. The one who, for show, pretends to be "born again" God ignores and he or she was never truly feeling God's conviction for his or her sins.

To be "born again" may be an "internal, DRAMATIC change," but there is a period of "pregnancy," so to speak, as God draws one to Himself.

Just because I do not always mention the pre-conversion work of the Holy Spirit, does not mean that I ignore it.  It is very real (e.g. awakening, enlightenment, fear and conviction), as I know from experience.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

Just because I do not always mention the pre-conversion work of the Holy Spirit, does not mean that I ignore it.  It is very real (e.g. awakening, enlightenment, fear and conviction), as I know from experience.

Shalom, David1701.

Good! Then you should also view these works-in-progress of the Ruwach haQodesh as MORE than just "unsaved and unspiritual." Nor, should you think of a "a POTENTIAL believer" as a "separate issue" to "being born again!" He or she is the quarry of "the Hound of Heaven!"

Edited July 24, 2020 by Retrobyter
to correct number continuity

[David1701]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

Good! Then you should also view these works-in-progress of the Ruwach haQodesh as MORE than just "unsaved and unspiritual." Nor, should you think of a "a POTENTIAL believer" as a "separate issue" to "being born again!" He or she is the quarry of "the Hound of Heaven!"

Before being born again, no matter what the Lord is doing in your life, no matter how alarmed or convicted you might be, the condition of your spirit is unsaved and unspiritual.  If someone is elect (and we can't know who is or is not, until the person is saved), then God WILL save him, by giving him a new heart/spirit that wants to please God and that believes in him.  If he is not elect, then he will be left in the sin that he desires and any alarm or conviction will merely serve to increase his accountability before God.

 

[Justin Adams]

16 minutes ago, David1701 said:

and we can't know who is or is not, until the person is saved

I used to listen to Harold Camping while driving home in OR. A one hour trip when not traveling.

Camping always ended his spiel with, 'Hopefully we will meet someday, but we will not know if we are saved until we die".

[David1701]

22 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I used to listen to Harold Camping while driving home in OR. A one hour trip when not traveling.

Camping always ended his spiel with, 'Hopefully we will meet someday, but we will not know if we are saved until we die".

Poor Harold Camping!  He was missing out on assurance of salvation.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 (EMTV) Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

Philippians 1:6 (EMTV) having been persuaded of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus;

Eph. 2:4-9 (EMTV)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, so that no one may boast.

Edited July 24, 2020 by David1701