The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

There is plenty of reason to think that the tribulation is over long before the mark ever occurs. For example, the Beast ascends from the Abyss (Rev. 11:7 etc.), which is not even opened until the 5th Trumpet (9:1-2).

The tribulation is never mentioned after Rev. 7, only the Wrath. The Rev. 20 saints are those who will experience the Wrath, because they are not prepared to ascend when the Lord appears to take up His elect of the Church.

Perhaps you believe in multiple raptures/resurrections etc. More likely, by your response, you are simply reading Revelation in linear mode. Rev 11 contains the "time of the dead" when people are rewarded by Jesus etc. This requires a resurrection it is part of the description of what happens at the 7th (last) trumpet.

Reading strictly in linear fashion demands that the mountains and islands flee away twice, Euphrates is mentioned twice (once in the trumpets and once in the vials. Same for darkness, the sea, the sun etc. All of this AFTER we read of Jesus seen above while the world is hiding from His face. The sky rolls up like a scroll-that is when the NEW heaven(sky) replaces it. Global geologic changes happen making the NEW Earth. These things are not adhering to a linear model. 

Revelation is a book of visions where things are shown more than once in a surprising number of cases.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Reading strictly in linear fashion demands that the mountains and islands flee away twice, Euphrates is mentioned twice (once in the trumpets and once in the vials). Same for darkness, the sea, the sun etc. ...

Revelation is a book of visions where things are shown more than once in a surprising number of cases.

This is a common misunderstanding, answered in part here:

16. The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Shows why the earthquakes of Rev. 6:12, 11:13, and 16:18 are indeed three separate quakes, and not, as some claim, all the same one.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1089-the-three-earthquakes-of-revelation/

The End Time judgments of God will be sequential, just like they were in the time of the Exodus: first will be the unseen judgment of the elohim, then the Seals judgment of the Church (true vs. false professors), then the Trumpets judgment of Israel, and finally Bowls judgment of the nations.

Therefore, it should not be unexpected that each 7-part judgment would have similarities. However, when you compare the exact descriptions of the separate judgments, you will find that they are only similar, not identical. The above blog article shows that without any real doubt.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is a common misunderstanding, answered in part here:

16. The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Shows why the earthquakes of Rev. 6:12, 11:13, and 16:18 are indeed three separate quakes, and not, as some claim, all the same one.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1089-the-three-earthquakes-of-revelation/

The End Time judgments of God will be sequential, just like they were in the time of the Exodus: first will be the unseen judgment of the elohim, then the Seals judgment of the Church (true vs. false professors), then the Trumpets judgment of Israel, and finally Bowls judgment of the nations.

Therefore, it should not be unexpected that each 7-part judgment would have similarities. However, when you compare the exact descriptions of the separate judgments, you will find that they are only similar, not identical. The above blog article shows that without any real doubt.

Rev 8- And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 11- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

I think you are heading to an argument from silence, focusing on what "it doesn't say". I am not one who demands the word of God to conform to my ideas of how it should be written. 

Do you think those other things I referred to such as Euphrates mentioned twice, sea life-twice, sun twice, darkness twice etc. must be worded perfectly identically in order to be speaking of the same events? 

All that aside, how many raptures AND resurrections do you say there will be?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Uriah
highlight

[Diaste]

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Let's just go with the word escape.  Do you think that there is going to be an escape?  And if so, who do you see as escaping, from what do you see them escaping, and when do you see this as occurring?

In that context the 'escape' is personal flight during calamity. The overall context is the time before the 2nd advent so whatever it is that whomever is escaping are events and conditions prior to and near the return of the Lord.

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

 

I'm not recalling your previous statements.  But, I'm thinking that whatever they were, I can't figure a way to make your position align with John's account.  If the first five Vials are poured out as "a consequence of the Lord's return,"  how can this be reconciled with what happens during the 6th Vial (esp. 16:14, 16)?  You did say in an earlier post that you see the vials as being "poured out in order."  I may be missing something that you have said related to this.  Have you got a chart somewhere in the forum that shows how you are seeing what you are saying?

Yes, poured out in order and in rapid succession with no delay between the pouring out. I'm not of the mind that one bowl is poured out and it's consequences felt upon the earth or mankind, it runs it's course and then the next bowl is poured. I don't see the scripture speak to the effects of the bowls in a linear succession. The conditions of the bowls will take effect at the proper time as our Father wills it. This means the 6th bowl will be poured out immediately when the wrath of the Lamb begins and the spirits will set about gathering the kings of the earth during the effects of the first 5 bowls. The effects of the vials of wrath will all be happening at the same time.

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

 

For me, your reply begs this question:  What do you make of the 7th Seal, and what happens after it is opened?

Silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour. That's all that's written about it. If I had to speculate I would say it's the moment of silence like we do to honor some notable occasion. In this case the heavens are holding it's collective breath in solemn reverence and probably mourning for what is about to occur.

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

 

So, what is the weight of your statement, "that's an old pretrib doctrine that really doesn't have a foundation"?  If one doesn't know anything about any view, there is plenty of foundation for the understanding that what is contained within the covers of the Seven Sealed Book cannot commence until the 7th Seal is opened.  If you have a treasure chest with seven locks on it, you don't get to put your hands on the treasure until the last lock is removed.  Similarly, the seven trumpets are not put into the hands of the seven angels until the 7th Seal is removed.  So very simple, logical, chronological, and scriptural.  And even foundational.  Just because the word wrath is spoken by those left behind at the opening of the 6th Seal and from the perspective of those in Heaven at the opening of the 7th Trumpet, this doesn't mean that the 7th Trumpet belongs with the 6th Seal.  Just because one side of a puzzle piece fits with one side of another puzzle piece, the pieces don't go together unless all the other pieces fit as well.

I suppose one could say that. Fact is as the 1st seal is opened we see;

"So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer."

Before the 2nd seal is opened and upon the opening of the 1st seal this rider on the white horse "rode out to overcome and conquer." This is active language which is the same in the 2nd seal;

"Then another horse went forth."

This is tells us that 2 horses and rider went forth upon the releasing of the seal.

I see your take is a book sealed on the outside with seven seals. What is more likely is the book is a scroll. Scrolls were written on then a seal placed. More was written on the scroll, it was rolled to the end of the text then sealed again. In this way the seals are on the inside of the scroll.

Logically when the first seal is opened Jesus can read what is written immediately: 

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!”So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer."

Jesus is not opening all seven seals before anything happens, He is opening one at a time and the conditions, effects and characters of the seal are released.

 

 

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

 

On the day that the 6th Seal is opened, those left behind will rightly say, "For the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17).  And much later, when the 7th Trumpet is sounded, the "four and twenty elders" (Rev. 11:17) will rightly say, "Thy wrath is come" (Rev. 11:18).  And, if such was said a dozen times in the course of what happens after the 6th Seal is opened, it would be a fitting statement, IMHO.  Rhetoric?  To me, it's just the Word, ably illustrated.  Have you got an illustration for what you are seeing?  Maybe that would be of a help to me.

Yes, but then wrath must occur twice and I see no evidence for such a thing. What the pretrib doctrine demands is that wrath begins at the 6th seal, then ends, then begins afresh at the 7th trump. Or, the definition of 'is come' must be changed to 'continuing from this point'. That's not what the text says in the everyday understanding of 'erchomai'. Erchomai is an arrival and is used both as a new condition of arrival and as a return. Both ideas are appropriate here as wrath is a new condition that has just arrived and it's also the return of Jesus, who also has just arrived. This is the case in both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18.

Which means the trumps are sounding in some form of concurrence with the seals. Not a one for one necessarily, it could be one for one, but most certainly they are sounding from the beginning of the week.

Joel 1 tells us this is the case;

"To You, O LORD, I call, for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field. Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures."

Compare that to the 1st trump:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."

Joel 1 further tells us this is before the 6th seal:

"Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty."

Here the Day of the Lord is near, not yet arrived, so we are not yet at the 6th seal signs and coming of Jesus and His wrath, and we are seeing and feeling the affects of all the pastures(green grass) burned up. Plus the waters have dried up according to Joel:

"Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures."

In my mind that's akin to the third trump. I know the language is not the same as Rev says the waters are made bitter and Joel says dried up. That may be poetic on Joel's part as bitter water will not hydrate and in a practical sense it's dry water, same as drinking salt water.

The Lord be with you always.

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

On 7/10/2020 at 1:15 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C,

Whether that Paul is here speaking to the numerics of Christ's body, we certainly don't know when this number will be complete.  Only the Lord knows this.  So, not knowing what God knows, I see it as being very important and scriptural to see Christ's return as being imminent.

In accord with the marvel of the inspiration of Scripture, it seems to me that any generation of the Church could have seen the Day approaching, or at the very least, more and more.  We certainly know that with each passing day, the Day is drawing closer!  And even now, I believe we should all be able to "see" the Day approaching!  When I was very young, I was always hearing older Christians say, "The time is getting closer."  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  And even now, the same kind of statements.  There was a little space of time when I thought that such statements might  be foolhardy.  But not anymore!   

Arriving late to the party, so apologies if any of this has already been addressed.  I believe that Ephesians 4:13 verse is Paul's vision for his ministry and for the church (without a vision the people perish)...it's what the church is to work TOWARDS and reach for at any time in history.  But it really won't be fulfilled (at least not completely) until:

1Co 13:8-12

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Also, I believe it's helpful to consider how there are paradoxes in the word of God....it's true we are always to have a sense of imminency in the sense that we are to endeavour  to be ready at any time for the return of Christ, be watching and keeping our garments clean, but at the same time it seems the early church was aware that certain things had to take place first:

2 Th 2:1-3

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

On 7/10/2020 at 8:17 PM, Marilyn C said:

It is NOT numbers but the maturing of the Body of Christ as regards to the full truth of the Lord and His purposes.

`...till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect, (mature) man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

Paul gave the whole counsel of God but then deceivers came in and brought false doctrine. Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has been bringing the Body of Christ clarity of truth. Here is a list and you can see that we are very blessed having received all those truths from the past that many died for.

 

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)

 

2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)

 

3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)

 

4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

 

5. Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

 

6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

 

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

 

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

 

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

 

 10 Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

 

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

 

`When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

 

 

A question I believe is worth thinking about....are those visible mainstream churches and denominations really HIS church, or is His true church hidden?

Luk 17:20-21

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 10/29/2020 at 2:02 PM, WilliamL said:

 

The End Time judgments of God will be sequential, just like they were in the time of the Exodus: 

 

Totally different. 

This is just like a sermon I listened to yesterday. The speaker said the 7 kings of Rev 17 began with Nimrod; because he was the first king mentioned in the Bible.

It would be more apt to begin with Nebuchadnezzar since he is the first mentioned in the succession of kings that lead to the beast and the end of the age.

In the same way the plagues of Egypt are out of sync with the end of the age. They are not a template, a shadow, or a harbinger. 

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 10/29/2020 at 2:02 PM, WilliamL said:

 

The End Time judgments of God will be sequential, just like they were in the time of the Exodus: 

 

Totally different.   ...the plagues of Egypt are out of sync with the end of the age. They are not a template, a shadow, or a harbinger. 

The plagues of Egypt were the precursors to the events that began at the Exodus on Passover. Those plagues have nothing to do with the sequence of events that parallel the events of Revelation. They are comparable to the present corona virus, African locust plague, and California fires: precursors.

The events of the Exodus that have a one-to-one correlation to the End Times began at the Exodus, when Israel fled Egypt in haste; just as the believers in the End Times must do when they see the Abomination of Desolation.

[WilliamL]

On 10/29/2020 at 4:26 PM, Uriah said:

I think you are heading to an argument from silence, focusing on what "it doesn't say". I am not one who demands the word of God to conform to my ideas of how it should be written. 

Do you think those other things I referred to such as Euphrates mentioned twice, sea life-twice, sun twice, darkness twice etc. must be worded perfectly identically in order to be speaking of the same events? 

And I think you can only see what you want to see. Let's compare a couple of passages:

Rev. 6:12 ...there was a great earthquake... 14 ...and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Rev. 16:18 ...there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as has not occurred since men were on the earth. ... 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

I believe any objective reader can clearly see that the quake in chap. 16 is far greater than the one in chap. 6.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And I think you can only see what you want to see. Let's compare a couple of passages:

Rev. 6:12 ...there was a great earthquake... 14 ...and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Rev. 16:18 ...there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as has not occurred since men were on the earth. ... 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

I believe any objective reader can clearly see that the quake in chap. 16 is far greater than the one in chap. 6.

Using CONTEXT we can see in Rev 6:12-14- the moon became as blood-the stars of heaven fell unto the earth-the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together,

Joel 2:31- The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Mark 13:25,26- And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken-And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory

Matt 24:29-31-  the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:- they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory-he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect

The CONTEXT allows us to see in Rev 16- Behold, I come as a thief. (has not come yet, unless you have multiple raptures/resurrections) he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon-And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done-

Rev 15 also tells us-and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Seeing these things and reading the accompanying words, it makes the case for the visions of Revelation being not strictly sequential/linear etc. but a re-telling of events in varying detail, scope and perspective.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Uriah
pics/wrote words twice