Bulldozing churches... this is where its heading

[Guest theElect777]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Didache 7

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Acts 2:38 speaks of Baptism by the authority of  Jesus.

 

 

I have a problem with this because this portion here "But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head."    Nowhere do I read where the Apostles sprinkled water etc.   They buried them under water.   This seems more like a Catholic thing than anything else.    

 

And also, what about Mark and Luke's version to Matthew 28:19?

Luke 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

If we follow Luke's version we can see why in the Book of Acts they baptized in Jesus Name.

[Daniel Marsh]

8 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

I believe the Father, the WORD, and the Holy Spirit are Spirit, not persons.

 

Jesus speaking about the Father said in John 4:23-24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

If the WORD was made flesh, what was the WORD before manifesting into flesh?   I believe Spirit

 

The Holy Spirit seems like a no brainer since the Name Holy Spirit involves Spirit.

 

Therefore, God is ONE, and the Divinity of God is Spirit.

Would it be correct to say all spirits are God?   If not, The definition you are giving friend fails. 

We know from Acts 13:2 that the Holy Spirit is a person because he applies ego, I to himself.   Ego is the the hallmark of personhood. 

I. His Divine Personality
A. His Personality.

1. "He" and "Him," not "it" (John 14:16-17; 15:26).

2. They lied to the Holy Ghost; cannot lie to an influence (Acts 5:3-4).

3. Can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

4. "I have called them" (Acts 13:1-2).

5. He speaks (Heb. 3:7).

6. He teaches (John 14:26).

7. He leads (Rom. 8:14).

8. He loves (Rom. 15:30).

9. He quickens (Rom. 8:11).

B. His Deity.

1. Co-equal with the Father and the Son; all three linked together, proving the Trinity of the Godhead (Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Rev. 1:4).

2. Divine attributes.

a. Omnipresent (Ps. 139:7, 8).

b. Omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10, 11).

c. Omnipotent. Only God can create (Job 26:13; 33:4; Ps. 104:30; 1

    Pet. 3:18.).

d. Eternal (Heb. 9:14).

II. His Special Function In The Godhead
A. Seen throughout Scripture as the Executor of the Divine plans, the active Agent and Power of the Godhead.

1. Active from Gen. 1:3 to Rev. 22:20, from eternity past to eternity future.

B. Always presenting Christ.

1. Before and after incarnation.

III. His Work In Creation
A. Reconstructing the earth for the habitation of man (Gen. 1:3).

1. Garnishing the heavens (Job 26:13).

B. The continued acts of the creation of all life, every man and creature that exists (Ps. 104:29-30).

C. Typical of His work of regeneration in the believing soul and garnishing the believer with fruit of the Spirit.

IV. His Work In The Old Testament
A. Character of His relationship with men.

1. Came upon men and moved them, but did not indwell them (1 Sam. 10:6;     11:6; 16:13; Jud. 11:29).

2. Left men again because of sin (Jud. 16:20; Ps. 51:11).

B. Operations of the Spirit.

1. Striving with men (Gen. 6:3).

2. Regenerating men. Old Testament saints had to be born again also to enter the kingdom (John 3:3).

3. Giving Bezaleel wisdom and understanding to build the tabernacle (Ex. 31:2-5).

4. Causing Balaam to bless Israel (Num. 24:2-10).

5. Moving Samson (Jud. 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

6. Inspiring men to write the Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:10-11; 2 Sam. 23:2).

[Guest theElect777]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Would it be correct to say all spirits are God?   If not, The definition you are giving friend fails. 

We know from Acts 13:2 that the Holy Spirit is a person because he applies ego, I to himself.   Ego is the the hallmark of personhood. 

I. His Divine Personality
A. His Personality.

1. "He" and "Him," not "it" (John 14:16-17; 15:26).

2. They lied to the Holy Ghost; cannot lie to an influence (Acts 5:3-4).

3. Can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

4. "I have called them" (Acts 13:1-2).

5. He speaks (Heb. 3:7).

6. He teaches (John 14:26).

7. He leads (Rom. 8:14).

8. He loves (Rom. 15:30).

9. He quickens (Rom. 8:11).

B. His Deity.

1. Co-equal with the Father and the Son; all three linked together, proving the Trinity of the Godhead (Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Rev. 1:4).

2. Divine attributes.

a. Omnipresent (Ps. 139:7, 8).

b. Omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10, 11).

c. Omnipotent. Only God can create (Job 26:13; 33:4; Ps. 104:30; 1

    Pet. 3:18.).

d. Eternal (Heb. 9:14).

II. His Special Function In The Godhead
A. Seen throughout Scripture as the Executor of the Divine plans, the active Agent and Power of the Godhead.

1. Active from Gen. 1:3 to Rev. 22:20, from eternity past to eternity future.

B. Always presenting Christ.

1. Before and after incarnation.

III. His Work In Creation
A. Reconstructing the earth for the habitation of man (Gen. 1:3).

1. Garnishing the heavens (Job 26:13).

B. The continued acts of the creation of all life, every man and creature that exists (Ps. 104:29-30).

C. Typical of His work of regeneration in the believing soul and garnishing the believer with fruit of the Spirit.

IV. His Work In The Old Testament
A. Character of His relationship with men.

1. Came upon men and moved them, but did not indwell them (1 Sam. 10:6;     11:6; 16:13; Jud. 11:29).

2. Left men again because of sin (Jud. 16:20; Ps. 51:11).

B. Operations of the Spirit.

1. Striving with men (Gen. 6:3).

2. Regenerating men. Old Testament saints had to be born again also to enter the kingdom (John 3:3).

3. Giving Bezaleel wisdom and understanding to build the tabernacle (Ex. 31:2-5).

4. Causing Balaam to bless Israel (Num. 24:2-10).

5. Moving Samson (Jud. 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14).

6. Inspiring men to write the Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:10-11; 2 Sam. 23:2).

why can't being in Spirit Form this not apply?   

[Daniel Marsh]

41 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

I have a problem with this because this portion here "But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head."    Nowhere do I read where the Apostles sprinkled water etc.   They buried them under water.   This seems more like a Catholic thing than anything else.    

 

And also, what about Mark and Luke's version to Matthew 28:19?

Luke 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

If we follow Luke's version we can see why in the Book of Acts they baptized in Jesus Name.

No if you study the phrase  "name of" in the NT, it speaks of who's authority it is done in.

Jesus gave clear teaching in Matthew 28 the baptismal formula. 

Luke as a historian was writing as a historian would by whose authority,.

John the Baptist, did full dunking.

In fact, there is no record of the Apostles themselves being baptised or how they were baptized.

"living water" simply means flowing water.  

They were likely baptized.

They lived in an environment where rivers were not always available.   

The Didache happens to be a first century church manual.   So, based on available water.

In Fact, God himself uses sprinkling, 

Ezekiel 36:25 ESV  

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

Isaiah 44:3 ESV 
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Daniel Marsh

[Guest theElect777]

6 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

No if you study the phrase  "name of" in the NT, it speaks of who's authority it is done in.

Jesus gave clear teaching in Matthew 28 the baptismal formula. 

Luke as a historian was writing as a historian would by whose authority,.

John the Baptist, did full dunking.

In fact, there is no record of the Apostles themselves being baptised or how they were baptized.

"living water" simply means flowing water.  

They were likely baptized.

They lived in an environment where rivers were not always available.   

The Didache happens to be a first century church manual.   So, based on available water.

In Fact, God himself uses sprinkling, 

Ezekiel 36:25 ESV / 12 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

Isaiah 44:3 ESV 
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
 

 

 

I thought we agreed to use the Hebrew?

 

25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you. 

כהוְזָֽרַקְתִּ֧י עֲלֵיכֶ֛ם מַ֥יִם טְהוֹרִ֖ים וּטְהַרְתֶּ֑ם מִכֹּ֧ל טֻמְאֽוֹתֵיכֶ֛ם וּמִכָּל־גִּלּֽוּלֵיכֶ֖ם אֲטַהֵ֥ר אֶתְכֶֽם:

 

3 As I will pour water on the thirsty and running water on dry land, I will pour My spirit on your seed and My blessing on your offspring. 

גכִּ֚י אֶצָּק־מַ֙יִם֙ עַל־צָמֵ֔א וְנֽוֹזְלִ֖ים עַל־יַבָּשָׁ֑ה אֶצֹּ֚ק רוּחִי֙ עַל־זַרְעֶ֔ךָ וּבִרְכָתִ֖י עַל־צֶֽאֱצָאֶֽיךָ:

 

 

 

 

But excellent Scripture references.

Edited July 12, 2020 by theElect777

[Daniel Marsh]

Leviticus 4:6The priest will dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the Lord, toward the sanctuary’s inner curtain.

Leviticus 4:17The priest will dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the Lord toward the inner curtain.

Leviticus 5:9Then he will sprinkle some of the blood of the purification offering on the side of the altar. The rest of the blood will be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a purification offering.

Leviticus 8:11He sprinkled some of the oil on the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all its equipment, as well as the basin and its base, to make them holy.

Leviticus 8:30Moses took some of the anointing oil and some of the blood that was on the altar and sprinkled it on Aaron and his clothes, and on his sons and their clothes as well. In this way, Moses made holy Aaron, his clothing, and Aaron’s sons and their clothing.

Leviticus 14:7He will sprinkle the person who needs purification from skin disease seven times and declare that they are clean. Then the priest will release the wild bird into the countryside.

Leviticus 14:16The priest will then dip his right finger into the oil and sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the Lord.

Leviticus 14:27Next, the priest will sprinkle some of the oil seven times before the Lord using his right finger.

Leviticus 14:51He will then take the cedarwood, hyssop, and crimson yarn, along with the wild bird, and will dip all of this into the fresh water and into the blood of the bird that was slaughtered. He will then sprinkle the house seven times.

Leviticus 16:14He will take some of the bull’s blood and sprinkle it with his finger on the cover from the east side. He will then sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times in front of the cover.

Leviticus 16:15Then he will slaughter the goat for the people’s purification offering, bring the blood inside the inner curtain, and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: he will sprinkle it on the cover and in front of the cover.

Leviticus 16:19He will sprinkle some of the blood on the altar with his finger seven times. In this way, he will purify it and make it holy again from the Israelites’ pollution.

Numbers 8:7This is what you will do to them to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purification on them, have them shave their bodies, wash their clothes, and cleanse themselves.

Numbers 19:4Eleazar the priest will take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle it seven times in front of the meeting tent.

Numbers 19:13Anyone who touches the body of a human who has died and doesn’t cleanse himself defiles the Lord’s dwelling. Such persons must be cut off from Israel because the water of purification wasn’t sprinkled on them. They remain unclean.

Numbers 19:18Then a clean person will take hyssop, dip it into the water, and sprinkle it on the tent, on all the jars, on the people who were there, and on anyone who touched bone, the slain, the dead, or the grave.

Numbers 19:19On the third day and the seventh day the clean person will sprinkle it on the unclean, so that he will have purified him on the seventh day. He will then wash his clothes, bathe in water, and be clean at evening.

Numbers 19:20Any person who is unclean and didn’t cleanse himself will be cut off from the assembly, because he has defiled the Lord’s sanctuary. He didn’t have the water of purification sprinkled on him. He is unclean.

Numbers 19:21This will be a permanent regulation for them. The one who sprinkles the water of purification will wash his own clothes. Anyone who touches the water of purification will be unclean until evening.

2 Kings 16:15Then King Ahaz ordered the priest Uriah, saying, “Burn the following sacrifices on the main altar: in the morning, the entirely burned offering; in the evening, the grain offering; the king’s entirely burned offering and his grain offering; the entirely burned offering for all the people of the land, their grain offering, and their drink offerings. “Sprinkle all the blood of the entirely burned offerings and all the blood of the sacrifices on it. I will use the bronze altar for seeking guidance.”

Proverbs 7:17I’ve sprinkled my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.

Ezekiel 36:25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be cleansed of all your pollution. I will cleanse you of all your idols.

Hosea 7:9Strangers have eaten up his strength, yet he doesn’t know it; gray hairs are sprinkled here and there upon him, yet he doesn’t know it.

Colossians 4:6Your speech should always be gracious and sprinkled with insight so that you may know how to respond to every person.
Hebrews 9:13If the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkled ashes of cows made spiritually contaminated people holy and clean,

Hebrews 9:19Moses took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the Law scroll itself and all the people after he had proclaimed every command of the Law to all the people.

Hebrews 9:21And in the same way he sprinkled the meeting tent and also all the equipment that would be used in the priests’ service with blood.

Hebrews 10:22Therefore, let’s draw near with a genuine heart with the certainty that our faith gives us, since our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies are washed with pure water.

Hebrews 12:24to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s blood.

Tobit 11:11with the fish’s gallbladder in his hand. Tobias sprinkled some of the gall into his father’s eyes, saying, “Don’t be afraid, Father!” He poured out the medicine on him and applied it.

Sirach 43:16and mountains will be shaken when he appears. The south wind blows by his will, as do storms from the north and whirlwinds. He sprinkles the snow like birds flying down, and its descent is like locusts alighting.

Bel and the Dragon 1:14But Daniel ordered his servants to bring ashes and sprinkle the whole temple, with only the king watching. Then everyone went out, locked the door, sealed it with the king’s seal, and left.

1 Maccabees 3:47They fasted for a day and put on mourning clothes, sprinkled ashes on their heads, and tore their garments.

1 Maccabees 4:39So they tore their clothes and mourned with great sorrow. They sprinkled their heads with ashes

2 Maccabees 1:21When they brought up the provisions for the sacrifice, Nehemiah commanded the priests to sprinkle the liquid on the wood and on the items lying there.
I
2 Maccabees 14:15When they heard about Nicanor’s advance and the support he had from the Gentiles, the Jews sprinkled themselves with earth. They prayed to the one who had established his own people forever and who always helped them by intervening on their behalf.

3 Maccabees 1:18The young girls who had been kept secluded at home rushed out with their mothers. They sprinkled their hair with dust and began to fill the streets with weeping and groaning.

3 Maccabees 4:6Young women, who had just entered the bridal bedroom for the sharing of life, exchanged joy for weeping and sprinkled dust on their hair that was still wet with perfume. They were led away with their heads bare and began to sing a funeral song together in place of a wedding song, as they were roughly handled by the cruel treatment of a foreign nation.

 

Sprinkling was common as a rite of purification in their culture. 

 

 

[Guest theElect777]

Very nicely done.

[Daniel Marsh]

3 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

I thought we agreed to use the Hebrew?

 

3 As I will pour water on the thirsty and running water on dry land, I will pour My spirit on your seed and My blessing on your offspring. 

גכִּ֚י אֶצָּק־מַ֙יִם֙ עַל־צָמֵ֔א וְנֽוֹזְלִ֖ים עַל־יַבָּשָׁ֑ה אֶצֹּ֚ק רוּחִי֙ עַל־זַרְעֶ֔ךָ וּבִרְכָתִ֖י עַל־צֶֽאֱצָאֶֽיךָ:

The key is " pour My spirit on your seed "

Not everywhere had clean running cold water.   So, baptism was historically by what was available.

This is a fact of history. 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Do we have a record in the NT of every Baptism and if it was done by dunking or is that read into the text?

[Guest theElect777]

I mentioned the example in Acts because that was the "Church" that Yeshua set up.  And Timothy baptized the Eunuch in water.   There was only sprinkling examples in the Old Testament.   Which makes me wonder about the Didache being from the Apostles themselves.   Their examples was in a body of water, where the Old Testament showed sprinkling.

Edited July 12, 2020 by theElect777