Questions to discuss

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

The trumpet judgments are the wrath of God. The seven vials are just a different view of the trumpets. In other words, wrath is over at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God. Wrath begins when the 1st trumpet sounds and ends when the 7th trumpet sounds. Bowls just a different view of the wrath.

 

"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." - Rev 8

I don't see wrath mentioned here.

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed." - Rev 15

"Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" - Rev 15

“Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.” - Rev 16

Three times the bowls are called wrath before they are poured out. The trumpets? Not once.

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Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and loathsome, malignant sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood.

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire.

Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 

Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

 

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,and He will reign forever and ever.” 

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets, as well as the saints and those who fear Your name, both small and great—and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. 

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath. Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

There are similarities. The 2nd trump and 2nd bowl. A disaster of thirds at the trump, but a complete destruction at the vial. The scope isn't the same and the only apparent likeness is what's affected. The 3rd trump and 3rd bowl is similar to that; a disaster of thirds and then a complete destruction. The 4th and 5th are not similar at all. The 6th trump and 6th vial are only alike in that the Euphrates is common, and again the trump is a disaster of a third while the 6th vial dries up the river, not very similar in cause and affect. The 7th trump is the harbinger of wrath and the moment of redemption and gathering of the saints. The 7th vial and 7th trump are so similar in Rev 11:19 and 16:18-19 one is forced to conclude wrath comes at the 7th trump and is manifested through the vials.

I do see commonalities. Not enough to conclude the vials are an extension of the trumps nor that trumps are wrath; especially since the trumps are not called wrath and the vials are.

 

[LastTrump Ministry]

I think you and I are so far apart in our views that we do more harm then good to discuss them.I can come across sometimes as blunt even as Jesus, (read Matthew23) Paul or the prophets did. There teachers, preachers and prophets and all have their calling and personality. I don’t think their “tone” had anything to do with their spirituality. I think we come from two different backgrounds and experiences I am guessing. I a country plowboy raised in the mountains of Virginia. Was born and raised in a church my grandparents founded in the 1930’s. I left as a teenager and went into the hippie culture of drugs, sex and rocking roll. Lived a rough life for my first 23 years. Been shot at a total of 15 times on different occasions. Been cut and beat almost to death with rocks by two not once but twice. I should have been dead at least twenty times before  I was saved at twenty-three. 

My background is old time mountain Pentecostals.our church of whiteboard, oak floor, benches and a huge altar and outside johns was more like the church of Acts. Common poor people who God used in ways beyond their ability or education. Our meeting ran often past midnight. It was normal for people to pray at the altar for hours. It was normal for our revivals to not run days but weeks and even months. A church that held packed a hundred maybe had people from Florida to California and everywhere in between come there. No air condition and windows open. Often huge crowds outside looking and listening. I was saved and born again in that environment. I was called to preach in that church and like most with no formal training or natural abilities. It was hard preaching like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finley, George Whitfield, Leonard Ravenhill and David Wilkerson all in one. It caused great conviction unto salvation. Many ran to the altar weeping and broken or ran out the door. It was not a comfortable place for sinners to set and socialize. There was too much fire and power. There was no smoke, glass and mirrors or entertainment. Church often started on its own and ended on its own. Some of the preaching there I have never heard anything close in the last 30 years in a church, TV (if you had one) or any media. They were pretribulation far as end time events. I wasn’t. For the simple reason I searched the scriptures trying to prove the point of a secret quick out of here rapture and never found it in 40 years of study and thousands of hours of prayer. 

I would not doubt we would disagree on many things but the simplicity of the fundamental foundation of the gospel. I most likely will not change your views and you defiantly won’t mine. So blessing be upon you. Shalom in His Holy name. 

Sorry if this was somewhat a personal testimony. It was but only a small part. May it help someone who reads it.  

[LastTrump Ministry]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

The scriptures are not and never have been 'Completely Jewish'. Abram was not a Jew. Enoch was not a Jew. Adam was not a Jew.

The list is long...

Speaking of NT writers. I understand your point. God formed Israel and it was and is the apple of his eye. Jesus told the woman at the well, “you know not what you worship, salvation is of the Jews.” But I understand your point well taken.

[LastTrump Ministry]

46 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." - Rev 8

I don't see wrath mentioned here.

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed." - Rev 15

"Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" - Rev 15

“Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.” - Rev 16

Three times the bowls are called wrath before they are poured out. The trumpets? Not once.

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Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and loathsome, malignant sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood.

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire.

Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 

Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

 

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,and He will reign forever and ever.” 

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets, as well as the saints and those who fear Your name, both small and great—and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. 

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath. Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

There are similarities. The 2nd trump and 2nd bowl. A disaster of thirds at the trump, but a complete destruction at the vial. The scope isn't the same and the only apparent likeness is what's affected. The 3rd trump and 3rd bowl is similar to that; a disaster of thirds and then a complete destruction. The 4th and 5th are not similar at all. The 6th trump and 6th vial are only alike in that the Euphrates is common, and again the trump is a disaster of a third while the 6th vial dries up the river, not very similar in cause and affect. The 7th trump is the harbinger of wrath and the moment of redemption and gathering of the saints. The 7th vial and 7th trump are so similar in Rev 11:19 and 16:18-19 one is forced to conclude wrath comes at the 7th trump and is manifested through the vials.

I do see commonalities. Not enough to conclude the vials are an extension of the trumps nor that trumps are wrath; especially since the trumps are not called wrath and the vials are.

 

Agree!!

[LastTrump Ministry]

I may posted my testimony in the wrong section to the wrong person. I am new on here and do not know how this works at this time Sorry.

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I may posted my testimony in the wrong section to the wrong person. I am new on here and do not know how this works at this time Sorry.

Do not be concerned, all topics will sometimes digress a little. No harm no foul.

[Alive]

11 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I must reply to your one answer and hope others will have some imput. I could not disagree more strongly with your statement, 3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.“

I hope that is a misprint? You are kidding right? Everything about the Bible has Jewish roots including what we now call “Christianity”? Just for starters to get back to the 7 feast of the LORD (YAHEW), they were giving by YAHEW Himself as HIS days, His appointed times, His patterns for Yeshua’s first and second coming as a Lamb then yet as King. He fulfilled the 4 Spring feast to not only the day but the hour? And you tell me YAHEW the Creator gave 7 feast days as patterns He called the “LORDS FEAST DAYS. Not Jew or gentile but HIS. You can do away with the LORDS days when it comes to future prophecy because you can’t fit them into your doctrine? Or GOD has rejected the Jewish nation forever. I mean this would take a book of all the Jewish customs that are positioning to endtime events.. for one the five wise and five foolish virgins? That is all a Jewish custom of a wedding pointing to the endtime church? That is one among hundreds of examples. Only thing I can figure in your answer you are either anti-Semitic or just plain stupid when it come to the Bible that is COMPLETELY Jewish? Even believers are spiritual Jews grafted into the natural vine. Mercy if this whole site is like this I need to delete it quick? Do you people agree with this heretic?   

Ok--go easy, new member. There is a rule in the TOS you agreed to that says to avoid personal insult. Please stick to the topic. Argue the points, not the person.

Thank you.

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." - Rev 8

I don't see wrath mentioned here.

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed." - Rev 15

"Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" - Rev 15

“Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.” - Rev 16

Three times the bowls are called wrath before they are poured out. The trumpets? Not once.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and loathsome, malignant sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood.

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire.

Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 

Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

 

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,and He will reign forever and ever.” 

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets, as well as the saints and those who fear Your name, both small and great—and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. 

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath. Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

There are similarities. The 2nd trump and 2nd bowl. A disaster of thirds at the trump, but a complete destruction at the vial. The scope isn't the same and the only apparent likeness is what's affected. The 3rd trump and 3rd bowl is similar to that; a disaster of thirds and then a complete destruction. The 4th and 5th are not similar at all. The 6th trump and 6th vial are only alike in that the Euphrates is common, and again the trump is a disaster of a third while the 6th vial dries up the river, not very similar in cause and affect. The 7th trump is the harbinger of wrath and the moment of redemption and gathering of the saints. The 7th vial and 7th trump are so similar in Rev 11:19 and 16:18-19 one is forced to conclude wrath comes at the 7th trump and is manifested through the vials.

I do see commonalities. Not enough to conclude the vials are an extension of the trumps nor that trumps are wrath; especially since the trumps are not called wrath and the vials are.

 

The events shown, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials, are covering the same time period.

The difference is that the 7 trumpets are against the flesh Israel who rejected the kingdom after 70 AD and the vials are against the Roman beast and associates.

In my opinion the time period of both the trumpets and the vials would be 70 AD until Jesus comes for the kingdom and this planet is destroyed.

The time lines are determined by the events that they describe or are implied. 

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The time line of the trumpets is determined by the opening of the scroll of the 7 seals, which was opened in front of John in 96 AD approx. and the coming of Jesus for the kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

The time line of the vials begins in 70 AD (this is assumed), and ends when people are allowed to enter the temple in heaven. Entering the temple in heaven can only happen after death is destroyed.

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Both the trumpets and the vials show the withdrawing of blessings and love from God due to the continued rejection of the gospel kingdom. (Also known as the wrath of God.)

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The Revelation is not one continual time line, it tells the same story over and over, from different viewpoints.

The Revelation centers on the period from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored to Israel (1967).

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Revelation centers on the period from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored to Israel (1967).

Huh...There must be a ton of books written by historians detailing the events. I'd like to read about the effects of the trumps on the earth from 70 AD to 1967. I wonder what it was like when a third of the water was made bitter and all the green grass burned up? I bet there are several books written on just the 2nd trump, what with a third of all sea creatures dying at one time and a third of all ships destroyed. The socioeconomic impact must have been felt for decades or longer, all around the world.

Can you point me to those histories?

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Huh...There must be a ton of books written by historians detailing the events. I'd like to read about the effects of the trumps on the earth from 70 AD to 1967. I wonder what it was like when a third of the water was made bitter and all the green grass burned up? I bet there are several books written on just the 2nd trump, what with a third of all sea creatures dying at one time and a third of all ships destroyed. The socioeconomic impact must have been felt for decades or longer, all around the world.

Can you point me to those histories?

Hi Diaste,

I can explain in some detail if allowed to.

#1 Thing to remember, the Bible centers on Israel. When it says "the whole world", it's not talking about the planet, just where ever the people of Israel are, Dan. 2:39, Acts 2:5.

  So when these things that are described are happening, they are centering on the people of Israel.

============================================================================================================

Here is the overview,

 

7 Seals, 37 AD - 70 AD, From when Israel rejected the gospel kingdom - until the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD. The day of the Lord against Jerusalem 67 AD - 70 AD. is the 6th seal..

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The 1/2 hour of silence, the time after 70 AD - until the giving of the Revelation to John in approx 96 AD.

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1-4 Trumpets, 70 AD - 1967, The trumpets show flesh Israel that rejected the new covenant kingdom after 70 AD suffering God's withdrawing of blessings until Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

They are covering the 4 areas of creation heaven, earth, the seas, and the fountains and rivers. Rev 14:7. See that the vials follow the same pattern. Rev 16.

The 4 trumpets diminish in power until Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

-

5th Trumpet, 1929, The Roman beast returns to the "land of the living nations" after centuries of being "displaced". The Vatican becomes a nation again.

-

6th Trumpet, 9/11/01, The result of the trumpet is that the powers from across the Euphrates River assemble to attack and destroy Israel in restored Jerusalem. (Happening now)

-

7th trumpet, Soon, Very soon, possibly months, Jesus comes for the kingdom and this planet ends in fire. The judgment that follows the trumpet is the last judgment of Rev 20 at the throne of Jesus.

======================

Rev 8:7 1st Trumpet, 70 AD - 1967, The earth, Because of their rejection of the gospel Pentecost kingdom, Israel is persecuted by Caesar and Rome.The effects are that the broken branches are unable to  receive the blessings of the new covenant kingdom. This is shown as the trees and grass being burnt up. The 1/3 symbolizes that Israel is not and cannot be complete until they are restored to Jerusalem from God's promises to the fathers.  The grass is people Isa 40:6-7 Israel. The trees are the people of Israel Num 24:5-6.

2nd trumpet v 8, The sea, The waters are people Rev 17:15. The mountain is Jerusalem Dan 9:16. This shows Jerusalem being overcome up by the gentile nations, Caesar and Rome. The blood in the waters show the suffering and deaths of the broken branches.

v 9, The "creatures" in the sea are living souls among the gentile nations that suffer. The ships that carry souls above the sea of the gentile nations are Israel traveling in groups among the gentile nations, above the gentile nations, from one Israelite settlement to the next. (Jerusalem is God's mountain)

3rd Trumpet, Rivers and Fountains, God is the fountain of blessings that flow from the throne in a river of life, Jer 2:13. The great star is Jerusalem, shining for all to see. But when the star, Jerusalem, falls it is bitterness on the part of the broken branches. The blessings that flow from the fountain throne of God through the river of life are now filled with "bitterness over the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The broken branches do not understand why God withdrew His blessings and caused Jerusalem to fall. They are still God's people, that is, they still have the promises of the fathers, but cannot understand why Jerusalem fell.

v 12, The heavens, The light of God to Israel is the Law, the sun. The Prophets are a reflection of the light from the Law. The stars are the people of Israel.

The broken branches have 2/3 of the complete picture, that is, they have the Law and the Prophets, but they do not have the new Pentecost kingdom 1/3 to make a complete day of light.