The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The gathering from heaven means the gathering in the sky where those in Christ meet the Lord. 

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

Um . . . no. The "gathering from heaven" means the "gathering from the sky." That's why it's a gathering "from one end of heaven to the other," "from one end of the sky (the lower end of earth's atmosphere) to the other (the upper end of earth's atmosphere)."

Edited August 16, 2020 by Retrobyter
to correct my English

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then you are still in error, if the gathering is after we are all up in the air, NO NEED to say earth." Sorry, your argument is a poor one. It simply does not fit Paul's rapture. Again, there is the timing issue. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry. There's a technicality that you need to follow TO THE LETTER: 

Paul said,

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "we-shall-be-snatched-away") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's not "the gathering is after we are all up in the air"; rather, it's "we are gathered INTO the air," i.e. from all over the earth's surface or its atmosphere.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Of course that is not true, as the passage includes the gathering.  The truth is simple, your claim was false, I just disproved what you said, and you cannot provide one single example in scripture that speaks of a gathering pre-trib.  Post-trib is the only position that has such evidence, what people do with it is on them.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Furthermore, there is no 7-year trib, either! Instead, there's a 2,000-year trib, and a "pre-trib" is now quite impossible. (There's no "mid-trib" or "pre-wrath" trib, either.) "Post-trib" is the only position possible with a 2,000-year trib.

There's NO SCRIPTURE that equates the "tribulation" with the "70th Week of Daniel 9." Therefore, there's NO SUCH THING as a "7-year trib."

People who READ INTO Daniel 9:26 the "Antichrist" (as the "Prince that shall come") frankly know NOTHING about Hebrew. The "he's" of Daniel 9:27 point back to the "Messiah" of 9:26! (Actually, the "he's" in verse 27 don't exist in Hebrew; they are merely the 3rd-person singular forms of the verbs ONLY! Their subject noun must exist OUTSIDE of the noun construct state, `am nagiyd, "people of-a-prince," in verse 26!)

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree.  When Christ returns to earth as Lord of lords and King of kings for The Lords day and we will reign with Him for 1000 years. 

 

Acts 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Left the earth, coming back to the earth. 

Yet another verse that the "theory" makes void.  

 

Let`s look at a few verses back from there. The disciples asked the Lord - "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"  The Lord said it wasn`t for them to know that. However the two men in white apparel standing by told them that the Lord would come in like manner. And we know that the Lord does come to the Mount of Olives when He deals with the world`s armies and delivers Israel. He then goes over to Jerusalem and reveals Himself to the house of David  and those in Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 4,  12: 10)

Thus this is not to do with the Body of Christ which is a heavenly nation not an earthly one.

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Furthermore, there is no 7-year trib, either! Instead, there's a 2,000-year trib, and a "pre-trib" is now quite impossible. (There's no "mid-trib" or "pre-wrath" trib, either.) "Post-trib" is the only position possible with a 2,000-year trib.

There's NO SCRIPTURE that equates the "tribulation" with the "70th Week of Daniel 9." Therefore, there's NO SUCH THING as a "7-year trib."

People who READ INTO Daniel 9:26 the "Antichrist" (as the "Prince that shall come") frankly know NOTHING about Hebrew. The "he's" of Daniel 9:27 point back to the "Messiah" of 9:26! (Actually, the "he's" in verse 27 don't exist in Hebrew; they are merely the 3rd-person singular forms of the verbs ONLY! Their subject noun must exist OUTSIDE of the noun construct state, `am nagiyd, "people of-a-prince," in verse 26!)

 

I agree brother, but I wonder then how you apply the historical view to chapter 11 in harmony with Daniel 9?  I am still trying to figure that one out, there is something wrong there.  Have you been following the daughter of women thread?

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Let`s look at a few verses back from there. The disciples asked the Lord - "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"  The Lord said it wasn`t for them to know that. However the two men in white apparel standing by told them that the Lord would come in like manner. And we know that the Lord does come to the Mount of Olives when He deals with the world`s armies and delivers Israel. He then goes over to Jerusalem and reveals Himself to the house of David  and those in Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 4,  12: 10)

Thus this is not to do with the Body of Christ which is a heavenly nation not an earthly one.

PLEASE KNOW this I GET A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY alot of the time and though in a response to you, not necessarily about your reply.  I hope that makes sense.  The Scriptures aren't given  for you but those who may be perusing who may not want to go search them out.  


Yes, when the Lord returns his foot will touch down.  He is coming back as Lord of lord and King of kings for that day of vengeance.  Just like it is written in Isaiah 

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Where He read from is very telling of "pre trib events"  

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

WHAT HE DIDN'T READ, BUT WHAT IS WRITTEN

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

 

WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN IN ISAIAH??? 

ANY DAY OR MOMENT OR COMING OR RETURN OR APPEARANCE OR HINT OR WINK OR NOD  AS TO 
A PRE TRIBULATION ANYTHING. 

EVEN WHEN CHRIST SPOKE AFTER STOPPING MID SENTENCE IN ISAIAH, LEAVING OFF BEFORE "THE DAY OF VENGEANCE" 

HE DID NOT HINT OR MAKE ANY SUGGESTION OF A GATHERING OR ASSEMBLING OF A BILLION SOULS AND FLYING THEM OFF TO HEAVEN BEFORE THAT DAY OF VENGEANCE,

 LET ALONE MAKE ANY MENTION OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON EARTH AT THAT TIME AND THERE AFTER.  THE VASTNESS OF MISSING INFORMATION ALONE SHOULD OPEN ONES EYES.  

WHAT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH?  

to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oil of joy for mourning,
the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Yes, all those who have died are in that heavenly nation right now.  I would imagine (yes, just an opinion) that they will be part of the armies that fight the war against Satan.

  
Christ rose and we saw all that rose "with him"  after he went and preached to those who had died "under the law" and had accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour, God is just.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Proving to us that we don't stay in a hole in the ground.


This further
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How many do you imagine don't understand the word "order" therefore use it as "succession" as opposed to "placement"
( not having gone to check out something so very important to truth.   A sad commentary on Christians today because they use that misunderstanding to JUSTIFY making so many other verses void)  

5001  tagma

that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank

an ordered arrangement, reflecting Gods's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation

extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results
 

 and he told the thief

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"today" you will  be.  Not later on down the road when I return, but today.  



And what did Paul say 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


          Yes, God so proves he is the God of the living and not the dead




and that that heavenly nation, those who have died before us, will return with Christ


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A question I have is

IF the above were pre trib,
then WHERE are the verses that describe what happens with those who did not rapture theory away?
When He returns as Lord of lord and King of kings there will be those who have overcome and endured to the end and those who have failed miserably. 

What happen to them? OR DO WE JUST USE THIS SAME VERSE AGAIN?  OR is there a different order.  will there be anyone else to resurrect?  would that be a "third resurrection"?  what effect will the second death have on them?  

 WHICH IS AFTER SATAN IS REVEALED

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9  even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 

again here,

I have had people try and take that "even him"  (that  I  just reduce  myself for clarity FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW) 
to make this mean something different

never going to check out that it was never in the original manuscripts, it was added by man. 
They don't even know that all those things added by man are in a different font in the Word.  Shoot many of them don't know that all the different ways God is rendered has a different meaning.  

 

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I agree brother, but I wonder then how you apply the historical view to chapter 11 in harmony with Daniel 9?  I am still trying to figure that one out, there is something wrong there.  Have you been following the daughter of women thread?

Shalom, wingnut-.

Yes, I've been following (and participating in), when I can, "the daughter of women" thread, but not closely of late.

The historical view of Daniel 9 takes one up to the Messiah's rejection and death, and this occurred after Herod died in chapter 11, verse 45, the last verse of chapter 11. The 12th chapter begins:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

And, Daniel 9:27 says,

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 "And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (one Seven, seven years):
and in the midst of the week (at 3.5 years) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 10), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate (Matthew 23:38), even until the consummation (the conclusion), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The first phrase highlighted was fulfilled in Matthew 23:1-38. The consummation or conclusion of the desolation (with a hint at a future deliverance) was begun in Matthew 23:39. This is when Yeshua` begins to lament and to mourn for the Temple and His people in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and 25. Forty years later, the Temple was destroyed and the children of Yhudah (the Jews) began going into captivity and dispersion among the Gentiles. THAT is what was determined against them and was poured upon the ones left desolate. This "time of trouble" in 12:1 are the EXACT SAME HEBREW WORDS as in Jeremiah 30:7:

Jeremiah 30:1-11 (KJV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

2 "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying,

" 'Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come,' saith the LORD, 'that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah,' saith the LORD: 'and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' "

4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 "For thus saith the LORD; 'We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 " 'Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 " 'Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved (rescued; delivered) out of it.

8 " 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' saith the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 " 'Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob,' saith the LORD; 'neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save (rescue; deliver) thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 " 'For I am with thee,' saith the LORD, 'to save (rescue; deliver) thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.' "

Yeshua` mentions this same "time of trouble" in His Olivet Discourse upon Har haZeitiym:

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (Greek: ho Christos = "the Messiah")'; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

It began for His disciples right there in the First Century A.D. This "tribulation" is the GAP between the first half of the 70th Seven (the "earthly ministry of our Lord") and the second half of the 70th Seven, which won't occur until after the Lord returns (mentioned in Revelation 12:14 as "a time, times, and half a time"). We are IN the GAP already and it's been nearly 2,000 years (probably closer to 1,992 years, so far)!

Understand how all this fits? Also, the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 and 13:5, and the time, times, and half a time of Revelation 12:14 are slightly different lengths of time. For the most part, they all overlap as the final half of the 70th Seven yet to come.

Full Preterism tries to put EVERY PART of the 70th Seven in the past.

Premillennialism tries to put EVERY PART of the 70th Seven in the future.

I've come to the conclusion that the first half of the 70th Seven WAS in the past, namely from when Yeshua` was about 30 until He was 34, which apparently was in 24-28 A.D.

We are currently IN the "tribulation" or the "time of Jacob's trouble."

The second half of the 70th Seven will continue after our Lord Yeshua`, God's Messiah, returns.

The two halves of the 70th Seven are like BOOKENDS to the tribulation, not the tribulation itself.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry. There's a technicality that you need to follow TO THE LETTER: 

Paul said,

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "we-shall-be-snatched-away") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's not "the gathering is after we are all up in the air"; rather, it's "we are gathered INTO the air," i.e. from all over the earth's surface or its atmosphere.

The point was and is, Jesus is NOT "all over." The saints will be "all over." He will be in one spot in the air and in a cloud. We will gather (in the air) TO HIM.
the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Where? Of course, up into the air and into the clouds.
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds  So now both the Dead in Christ and those who are alive and in Christ are up, in the clouds. 
to meet the Lord in the air:  now that all the Bride is in the air and in the clouds, (but around the entire planet) we must meet HIM. Since Paul does not use "gathering" here, maybe I should not.  However, in his second letter he wrote, "by our gathering together unto him". 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Yes, I've been following (and participating in), when I can, "the daughter of women" thread, but not closely of late.

The historical view of Daniel 9 takes one up to the Messiah's rejection and death, and this occurred after Herod died in chapter 11, verse 45, the last verse of chapter 11. The 12th chapter begins:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

And, Daniel 9:27 says,

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 "And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (one Seven, seven years):
and in the midst of the week (at 3.5 years) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 10), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate (Matthew 23:38), even until the consummation (the conclusion), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The first phrase highlighted was fulfilled in Matthew 23:1-38. The consummation or conclusion of the desolation (with a hint at a future deliverance) was begun in Matthew 23:39. This is when Yeshua` begins to lament and to mourn for the Temple and His people in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and 25. Forty years later, the Temple was destroyed and the children of Yhudah (the Jews) began going into captivity and dispersion among the Gentiles. THAT is what was determined against them and was poured upon the ones left desolate. This "time of trouble" in 12:1 are the EXACT SAME HEBREW WORDS as in Jeremiah 30:7:

Jeremiah 30:1-11 (KJV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

2 "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying,

" 'Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come,' saith the LORD, 'that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah,' saith the LORD: 'and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.' "

4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 "For thus saith the LORD; 'We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 " 'Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 " 'Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved (rescued; delivered) out of it.

8 " 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' saith the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 " 'Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob,' saith the LORD; 'neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save (rescue; deliver) thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 " 'For I am with thee,' saith the LORD, 'to save (rescue; deliver) thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.' "

Yeshua` mentions this same "time of trouble" in His Olivet Discourse upon Har haZeitiym:

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (Greek: ho Christos = "the Messiah")'; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

It began for His disciples right there in the First Century A.D. This "tribulation" is the GAP between the first half of the 70th Seven (the "earthly ministry of our Lord") and the second half of the 70th Seven, which won't occur until after the Lord returns (mentioned in Revelation 12:14 as "a time, times, and half a time"). We are IN the GAP already and it's been nearly 2,000 years (probably closer to 1,992 years, so far)!

Understand how all this fits? Also, the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 and 13:5, and the time, times, and half a time of Revelation 12:14 are slightly different lengths of time. For the most part, they all overlap as the final half of the 70th Seven yet to come.

Full Preterism tries to put EVERY PART of the 70th Seven in the past.

Premillennialism tries to put EVERY PART of the 70th Seven in the future.

I've come to the conclusion that the first half of the 70th Seven WAS in the past, namely from when Yeshua` was about 30 until He was 34, which apparently was in 24-28 A.D.

We are currently IN the "tribulation" or the "time of Jacob's trouble."

The second half of the 70th Seven will continue after our Lord Yeshua`, God's Messiah, returns.

The two halves of the 70th Seven are like BOOKENDS to the tribulation, not the tribulation itself.

I think your conclusion is mistaken. Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved. I am convinced that is why the 70th week of Daniel, also a 7 year period, also became known as "the time of Jacob's trouble." 

I have tried this over and over, and it just does not work. I took an apple to represent 7 years. I cut it in half and ate one half. Then I put the other half in the refer overnight, and took that half out the next day. The night would represent the last nearly 2000 years. Then I cut what was left of the apple in half to represent the abomination Jesus and Daniel spoke of that would divide the week.  Sadly, I ended up with two QUARTERS, not two halves. However, Revelation ends up with HALVES, not quarters. It would seem then, there MUST BE an entire 70th week in our future, so when the abomination takes place (The man of sin entering the temple and declaring he is GOD) there MUST BE an entire 70th week to divide. 

The truth is, the 70th week (all 7 years) IS "the tribulation." But it would be MUCH better if we called it the 70th week. John said he was in "THE tribulation." (perhaps making the entire church age "the tribulation."

Also, the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 and 13:5, and the time, times, and half a time of Revelation 12:14 are slightly different lengths of time. For the most part, they all overlap as the final half of the 70th Seven yet to come.

Perhaps not.  If we follow John, they don't start at the same time. The 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying seem to start at the same time. The 1260 days of fleeing and the time, times and half of time of feeding and protection seem to start at the same time. The 42 months of authority starts last of all these countdowns. Once the 42 months of authority start, they ALL RUN PARALLEL. 

I cannot find where any of them really end except the 42 months of authority: that must end when the Beast is captured. I believe the week ends with the 7th vial. Since the 42 months of trampling started first, it should end first. It is my guess, the army or armies of the man of sin turned Beast LEAVE Jerusalem just before that last vial, and head for the valley in preparation for the battle. (I think it is the Gentile armies of the man of sin that tramples the city.) 

I guess I am millennial: I believe the entire week is future. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

PLEASE KNOW this I GET A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY alot of the time and though in a response to you, not necessarily about your reply.  I hope that makes sense.  The Scriptures aren't given  for you but those who may be perusing who may not want to go search them out.  


Yes, when the Lord returns his foot will touch down.  He is coming back as Lord of lord and King of kings for that day of vengeance.  Just like it is written in Isaiah 

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Where He read from is very telling of "pre trib events"  

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

WHAT HE DIDN'T READ, BUT WHAT IS WRITTEN

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

 

WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN IN ISAIAH??? 

ANY DAY OR MOMENT OR COMING OR RETURN OR APPEARANCE OR HINT OR WINK OR NOD  AS TO 
A PRE TRIBULATION ANYTHING. 

EVEN WHEN CHRIST SPOKE AFTER STOPPING MID SENTENCE IN ISAIAH, LEAVING OFF BEFORE "THE DAY OF VENGEANCE" 

HE DID NOT HINT OR MAKE ANY SUGGESTION OF A GATHERING OR ASSEMBLING OF A BILLION SOULS AND FLYING THEM OFF TO HEAVEN BEFORE THAT DAY OF VENGEANCE,

 LET ALONE MAKE ANY MENTION OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON EARTH AT THAT TIME AND THERE AFTER.  THE VASTNESS OF MISSING INFORMATION ALONE SHOULD OPEN ONES EYES.  

WHAT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH?  

to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oil of joy for mourning,
the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Yes, all those who have died are in that heavenly nation right now.  I would imagine (yes, just an opinion) that they will be part of the armies that fight the war against Satan.

  
Christ rose and we saw all that rose "with him"  after he went and preached to those who had died "under the law" and had accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour, God is just.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Proving to us that we don't stay in a hole in the ground.


This further
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How many do you imagine don't understand the word "order" therefore use it as "succession" as opposed to "placement"
( not having gone to check out something so very important to truth.   A sad commentary on Christians today because they use that misunderstanding to JUSTIFY making so many other verses void)  

5001  tagma

that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank

an ordered arrangement, reflecting Gods's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation

extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results
 

 and he told the thief

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"today" you will  be.  Not later on down the road when I return, but today.  



And what did Paul say 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


          Yes, God so proves he is the God of the living and not the dead




and that that heavenly nation, those who have died before us, will return with Christ


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A question I have is

IF the above were pre trib,
then WHERE are the verses that describe what happens with those who did not rapture theory away?
When He returns as Lord of lord and King of kings there will be those who have overcome and endured to the end and those who have failed miserably. 

What happen to them? OR DO WE JUST USE THIS SAME VERSE AGAIN?  OR is there a different order.  will there be anyone else to resurrect?  would that be a "third resurrection"?  what effect will the second death have on them?  

 WHICH IS AFTER SATAN IS REVEALED

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9  even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 

again here,

I have had people try and take that "even him"  (that  I  just reduce  myself for clarity FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW) 
to make this mean something different

never going to check out that it was never in the original manuscripts, it was added by man. 
They don't even know that all those things added by man are in a different font in the Word.  Shoot many of them don't know that all the different ways God is rendered has a different meaning.  

 

 

whose coming is after the working of Satan    I see you still seem to think, IN ERROR, that this is talking about Jesus. Let's look further: whoever Paul is talking about will come with "lying wonders." Now, DeighAnn, ask yourself which makes more sense:
The man of sin (the subject of the previous verses) coming with lying wonders, or
JESUS coming with lying wonders?  You amaze me. 

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Paul introduces us to the man of sin in this verse.)

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ("Who:" still talking about the man of sin:
He opposes God and exalts himself above God.
He sits in the temple of God showing that he IS God...)

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (When Paul was there He taught them this)

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (He again referring to the man of sin.)

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Probably the Holy Spirit as the restrainer) who now letteth will let (will continue to restrain until the proper time), until he (Probably the Holy Spirit as the restrainer) be taken out of the way.

 

⁸ And then shall that Wicked (the man of sin under discussion.) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him (the man of sin under discussion), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (It is the man of sin whose coming is after the working of Satan. )

The question is, is "after" here used in the realm of TIME as you are trying to use it?  (as in 2 comes after 1.)

Note, English after: Greek

KJV usage:

The KJV translates Strong's G2596 in the following manner:
according to  (107x), after (61x), against (58x), in (36x), by (27x), daily (with G2250) (15x), as (11x), miscellaneous (165x).

whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is against the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is in the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is by the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is daily the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is with the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
whose coming is as the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

Now, which of these makes the most sense and is the MOST LIKELY meaning?  How about we look at some other English translations and see if they have used any of these words?

KJ21  even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders,
ASV  even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
DARBY  whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood,
DRA  Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
MOUNCE  The coming of the lawless one will be according to the activity of Satan, with all kinds of false miracles, · signs, and wonders,
NKJV  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
OJB  The Bi’as Anti-Moshiach (Coming, Parousia, of Anti-Moshiach) is according to the working of Hasatan with all false ko’ach (power) and otot (signs) and pseudo moftim (wonders),
WEB  even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
YLT  [him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

I think we can determine that "after" in this verse is not in ANY WAY used in the realm of TIME, as in 1 comes AFTER 2. It is just to mean "according to."

Other texts use "based on," "by," "in accordance with," 

Therefore, PLEASE quit using this verse to prove timing.