The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I've come to the conclusion that the first half of the 70th Seven WAS in the past, namely from when Yeshua` was about 30 until He was 34, which apparently was in 24-28 A.D.

 

I get the same thing, but there is a conflict with that as well.  How do you reconcile a break in the middle of the week given what is said in chapter 12.

 

Daniel 12: 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 

[Retrobyter]

8 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Brother O brother,

Hey, its been a while.

I challenged the "chronological" order of Revelation back in Nov 2019.

You are so absolutely positive that Rev is chronological that you never even responded. It should be quite easy for someone who is that convinced and that positive about the order Rev is written in, that a refute should be easy.  Did you not have anything to refute? 

Common sense tells us it is written IN AN ORDER..... 

Who is the "US".....certainly not very many that I know. Perhaps this "common sense" isn't as common as you think it is!

Shalom, JoeCanada.

Remember that Yochanan ("John") was a Jew. And, the Jewish order of literature is different than Western chronological order. I doubt that the book of Revelation was originally written in Greek. It was probably written in Aramaic first and translated into the Greek by later church fathers.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Right. You quit every single time I produce scripture that proves you are wrong. Please explain, if that isn't the Great Tribulation being talked about in Rev 6:11 WHAT IS IT ?  Ha! You said that backwards! I produce scripture that proves YOU wrong, so you just say no, it doesn't mean that....like the duck's back. 

 

I have yet to see you produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong. If you could produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong, I would change my belief.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

if that isn't the Great Tribulation being talked about in Rev 6:11 WHAT IS IT ?   It is the martyrs of the church age.

The Church age is over before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Here is the Church in heaven in Rev 5. Since there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people and nations it is obvious that the 24 elders are speaking for others, and they are kings and priests  that will reign on the earth. So the Church is already in heaven and the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, before any seals are opened. These are facts, supported by the scripture.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If it really were 7th seek or GT martyrs (not shown until chapter 15) they would KNOW that judgment had already started and would finish at the end of 7 years. The truth is, they had NO IDEA how long it would be before judgment.  

Judgement has not started. Judgement will not start until the 7th seal. Additionally, since we can prove that the Church is already in heaven, these have to be of the 12 tribes across the earth. This is supported by those in Revelation 15 singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes.

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Additionally, we can support those in the Great Tribulation in Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Which shown to us in Rev 6

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am expecting the duck's back here.

 

Nice!!!

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OK. I will quit now and see how you answer.  We will go one question at a time. 

[Retrobyter]

40 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

I get the same thing, but there is a conflict with that as well.  How do you reconcile a break in the middle of the week given what is said in chapter 12.

 

Daniel 12: 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 

Shalom, wingnut-.

I believe that, given the context, this messenger is telling Daniel about the closer events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his abomination that occurred in 167 B.C. We can't let ourselves forget the other events of Daniel 11 and think that Daniel is still being given information regarding the far distant future. The closer future would be more beneficial for the children of Israel for whom he was writing all this down.

Daniel 12:9-13 (KJV)

9 And he said,

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 

10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 

13 But go thou thy way till the end (HIS end) be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

[Charlie744]

Ok, I have NO business in this debate since I have absolutely no time in studying Revelation (I mean NONE), AND I have not read the previous 49 pages of comments so far... so this will most likely prove to be of very limited value... 

I believe there is one thing I have learned from other books in the Bible- God does repeat His teaching “tools”, if you will. One may find a story in the OT that reveals His methods or patterns or steps and where He will apply / use them again...and this will be on a “corporate” level or on an individual basis — this may not be the most appropriate use of this term but it could be labeled as a “type”.

Now regarding the Tribulation (pre or post, etc.), if I would shoot an arrow in the air (again, without studying Revelation), I would be willing to bet that the “end times”, the “tribulation period”, and  all that will take place more might mirror to a very large extent to the Exodus story. 

Perhaps the tribulation is similar to the last week plagues in Egypt (no, not the same kind of insects, or frogs, etc., but represents a difficult time), and then there is a decision that each must make before the Lord returns... Those that obey God will leave Egypt (earth), and just as during The Exodus it will include both Jews and Gentiles. Further, and also as in the Exodus story, Satan (Pharaoh) will find it necessary to make a final battle (his last attempt) to destroy everything only to be completely destroyed and thrown into the sea (sea of fire).

The “steps” identified in Exodus should / might mirror those at the end times. When I (hopefully) can study Revelation, I fully expect to see (interpret) events that He has shown us before—- He already has done that many times!

Just a thought, best wishes, Charlie 

 

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

I have yet to see you produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong. If you could produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong, I would change my belief.

The Church age is over before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Here is the Church in heaven in Rev 5. Since there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people and nations it is obvious that the 24 elders are speaking for others, and they are kings and priests  that will reign on the earth. So the Church is already in heaven and the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, before any seals are opened. These are facts, supported by the scripture.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Judgement has not started. Judgement will not start until the 7th seal. Additionally, since we can prove that the Church is already in heaven, these have to be of the 12 tribes across the earth. This is supported by those in Revelation 15 singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes.

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Additionally, we can support those in the Great Tribulation in Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Which shown to us in Rev 6

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

Nice!!!

I have yet to see you produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong. If you could produce a scripture that proves what I'm saying is wrong, I would change my belief.  Yes, OF COURSE: because the truth of many scriptures rolls off like water off a duck's back. Been there, and done that with you time and time again.  But, this is a new day!

The Church age is over before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Here is the Church in heaven in Rev 5. Since there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people and nations it is obvious that the 24 elders are speaking for others, and they are kings and priests  that will reign on the earth. So the Church is already in heaven and the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, before any seals are opened. These are facts, supported by the scripture. This is kind of meaningless with a specific scripture. But You mention chapter 5.  Yes, OF COURSE the church age is over before the 70th week begins. But WHERE in Revelation does the 70th week begin? Where in Revelation is the rapture that ends the church age? Give  specific scriptures. Ah! You mention 24 elders. People have tried to prove a rapture with the 24 elders for centuries. It won't work. God has given us no more information about them. In their song, they are singing about US.

 

⁹ And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
because you were slain,  and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign^[b] on the earth.” (NIV Emphasis added)

 

You see, it is NOT the 24 elders that are kings and priests:  It is US, the church. So YES,  "the 24 elders are speaking for others" I agree.  Your "facts" then are only yours, not real. 

 

So the Church is already in heaven  Now you have left scripture and gone into imagination. It is the ELDERS in heaven (not the church). Some try to say they are representing the church in heaven. Sorry, this is myth and cannot be proven by scripture. What this is really telling us is that there are 24 ELDERS in heaven. The question is WHEN? You see, you have totally MISSED the main theme of this passage. The main theme is the book and the TIMING. 

 

Note: in chapter 4 we read of the throne room seen, a vision seen around 95 AD, some 60 years after Jesus ascended. However, Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father where many verses say He should have been in 95 AD. This is a vision created by God Himself  - so there is PURPOSE in Jesus not seen. It is exactly what He wants to readers to notice. Stephen saw Jesus at the Father's right hand. What then is the MESSAGE God is trying to give us?

 

Next, we notice that the Holy Spirit (as the 7 spirits) is there in the throne room. Yet, Jesus said that as soon as He would ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down. Yet, here in 95 AD the Holy Spirit is still here in the throne room.  (Again this is EXACTLY what God showed John in the vision - and for a purpose." Then we go into chapter 5.

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [the BOOK is the main theme of this passage. Note that it is written WITHIN (past all the seals)]

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? [Angels, doing God's will. His will here: find SOMEONE worthy to take this book and get it OPENED.]

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [It should be obvious, but so many miss it: at this point in time, no man anywhere is found worthy - not even Jesus. WHEN? When would Jesus NOT have been worthy to take this book? Before He finished His work to become the Redeemer. At this time He had NOT "prevailed:" (see verse 5)  WHEN? Before Jesus rose from the dead: around 32 AD]

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [John knows somehow how important it is to get this book opened. He wept much because that search he watched ended in failure: no man was found worthy at that time. How much is "much?" Days? Hours? We don't know.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [time passes and things change. The first thing we notice is that someone has been found. This tells us (or at least hints very strongly) that another search was made after that one John watched had ended in failure. It also tells us that it is LION of Judah who is found. So what has happened between that first search when "the LION" was NOT worthy, to know when HE has BECOME worthy? It says "hath prevailed." What did Jesus prevail over that made Him worthy? John does not tell us, but other scriptures do: Jesus prevailed over DEATH. He became the "Redeemer." (When? Around 32 AD) 

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Remember, a throne room without Jesus, now a throne room WITH Jesus (around 32 AD: He has just prevailed over death. Jesus suddenly APPEARS where a moment before He was not there. And what is the very FIRST thing that happens? He immediately sends the Holy Spirit DOWN. God has given us hint after hint of TIME. Yet people ignore the hints and imagine all this is in their (the reader's) time. WHEN was a time when Jesus (even the preincarnate Jesus) would NOT have been seen in heaven? That would be while He was on the earth. As a man, He could not be in more than one place at a time. So God showed John a vision with Jesus MISSING. Remember, this is HIS BOOK: He is the main character! He God shows John a throne room and the MAIN CHARACTER is not seen. Why? It is showing us TIME: it is while Jesus is ON EARTH (or under the earth.)]

Then a search is made for someone worthy to open this book, but it ends in failure: NO MAN was found. Then TIME PASSES and another search FINDS JESUS. What has happened? He just rose from the dead: circa 32 AD. Again God is showing us TIME. Now, at last, the book can be opened! 

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [Jesus goes immediately to get the book. WHEN? If we believe John, as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.]

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [This is a monumental event: after thousands of years, FINALLY the time has come that this book can be opened. There is going to be praise in heaven! If we read ahead, we see that when the book gets opened, soon after, Satan is dethroned. He has remained the god of this world since Adam sinned. But finally, God shows us, He is going to get kicked off his throne. This gives us a STRONG hint that this book just could be Adam's lease document. 

Ancient Jewish sages, perhaps before the days of Moses, wrote that because God created in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, then man would rule the world for 6 thousand years, and God would rule the world for the 7th thousand years. Revelation seems to prove this true. I believe when the 7th trumpet sounds, 6000 years are up, Adam's lease expires, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth.  JMO

Judgement has not started.  You were saying they were GT martyrs.  Since you don't believe the chronology given, I guess you can imagine anything. Here is John's chronology. I know, it is going to be water off the duck's back:

Chapters 4 & 5 show us the TIMING of the first seals: 32 AD
Chapter 6 starts the same timing: 32 AD, CHURCH AGE. Seal 5 is church age martyrs. 
Chapter 6 then moves from church age into the Day of the Lord when Judgment begins.
Chapter 7 is an intermission: God MUST see two things finished before He can start the HURT on earth (judgment as in the 70th week)
   1: the 144,000 MUST be sealed before the WEEK can begin
   2. The church must be seen safely in heaven before WRATH
Chapter 8, the start of the 70th week, and the start of the HURT on earth
Chapter 9 HURT continues
Chapter 10: intermission: things have to be accomplished before the abomination that will divide the week and START the days of GT.
Chapter 11: The man of sin moves to Jerusalem with Gentile armies who will trample he city -just days before He will enter the temple..
   The two witnesses suddenly appear in earth, just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple.
   The 7th trumpet sounds AS the man if sin enters the temple and caused the abomination Jesus spoke of.
   The first 6000 years are over, Adam's lease ends, A closing takes place: the kingdoms of earth are taken from Satan and given to Jesus.
Chapter 12  God introduces John to the dragon: mentioned 32 times in this chapter:
   The first five verses are a history lesson for John about the days of Jesus birth; how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child.
   Seconds after the abomination: those in Judea begin to flee
   War in heaven: Satan has no more legal hold on earth (He had usurped Adam's lease) and is now cast down from the heavenly realms.               he looses his wings.
   Satan goes after those who have fled, but discovers God is protecting them, so he goes after the remnant of those who love Jesus. 
Chapter 13: God introduces John to the Beast and False Prophet - who will CAUSE those days of GT: great PRESSURE upon people
   The man of sin who entered the temple in chapter 11 and declared he is GOD, has now turned BEAST. John sees him arising.
   He is given 42 months of authority.
   The False prophet shows up
   God shows us what they will do: they will cause the days of GT: they will created an image and a mark, and force people to receive it.
Chapter 14: God must WARN people before they accept the mark: if they do, they will be doomed to the lake of fire. 
   God also warns people to worship God and FEAR Him. After the warning, the Beast and False prophet being forcing the mark upon                      people: take the mark or lose their head. These are the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 
Chapter 15: the beheaded (from the days of GT Jesus spoke of) BEGIN to show up in heaven. Time passes as the murder of the saints                     reaches a frenzy during the days of GT.
Chapter 16: God pours out the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT. The 7th vial ENDS the 70th week.

See how smoothly this flows from church age to the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath into the 70th week, the trumpets coming in the first half, the abomination at the midpoint, then the fleeing, Satan cast down with great wrath (CAUSING the days of GT using the Beast and FP), then the rise of the Antichrist Beast and false prophet, then the creation of the Image and mark, God's warning, then days of GT begin, as the Beast forces all to take his mark, or lose their head.  You imagine the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the seals, but John has those days in chapter 14 through 16. (the point is, God can call OTHER times as GT, but not be the GT Jesus spoke of, that would be greater than any other. The truth is, the GT that this huge crowd came out of is the CHURCH AGE. 

In other verses, we are told the church age is tribulation. John said, "I john in THE TRIBULATION..." Since the church age will last around 2000 years, I think God has the right to call it mega, or great. This great crowd came out of the CHURCH AGE great tribulation. That is why Jesus had to ADD MORE WORDS when He spoke, telling us that the days of GT that will come after the abomination would be greater than any other time on earth.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice WHEN: The days of GT Jesus spoke of will come after the abomination that will divide the week. There is absolute proof of the division of the week as John gives us 5 countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week: 42 months of trampling, 1260 days of testifying, 1260 days of fleeing, 3.5 years of protection, and 42 months of authority, in chapters 11 through 13. (the EXACT midpoint is in chapter 11.)

So where is this fleeing from the abomination that divides the week? The abomination is in chapter 11, the fleeing is in chapter 12:6. 

The TRUTH then, "Judgment" begins with the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal with that great earthquake. (the opening salvo). Then judgment begins in earnest with the trumpets and vials. 

Since God has called the church age days of great tribulation, then I must agree with you: the seals  - up to seal 5 - are indeed church age and so according to Rev. 7 are days of GT - Just NOT the GT Jesus spoke of that will come much later in the book!

Judgement has not started. Judgement will not start until the 7th seal. I disagree, but we are close. i think it begins with the eathquake at the 6th seal. 

 

since we can prove that the Church is already in heaven, these have to be of the 12 tribes across the earth.  I disagree. Since you are in error imagining the 24 Elders as the church in heaven. This great crowd too large to number will be the just raptured church, raptured JUST before the start of WRATH, at the 6th seal. Notice they are seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. Imagine: perhaps 50 generations of believers in one huge crowd: I suspect several billion people. This would include all the children at the time of the rapture. It would take one human (counting one per second) over 30 years to count to one billion. This crowd is CERTAINLY too large to number! There is NO WAY  - even if ALL of Israel is saved - they will be this large of a crowd. We can know, this great crowd too large to number is the church. They are in heaven BEFORE the 70th week begins, so PRETRIB.

 

Rev 15:² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.  I'm glad you showed us this. This is the first of the martyrs beheaded by the Beast and False prophet as the days of GT JESUS spoke of begin. NOT in the seals, but late in chapter 14. 

Rev 14

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. yes, GREAT! The days of GT JESUS spoke of is JUST BEGINNING - as I always say, late in chapter 14. That is when the great tribulation JESUS spoke of will begin.

Which shown to us in Rev 6   No, you blew it! This is a totally different group of people. These at seal 5 are the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. The church age ends in Revelation just before the DAY OF THE LORD begins: at the 6th seal. 

As usual, you destroy the chronology of Revelation with your theories, proving they are error. 
However, since I believe the GT shown in chapter 7 is speaking of the church age, then I will have to agree with you that there is GT going on in the seals - Just not the GT Jesus spoke about.  It is church age great tribulation.

[DeighAnn]

Until Satan accomplished having Christ killed, God could not sentence him to death.  Evil as he was, against God as he was, God is just and Gods law for the punishment of eternal death could not be carried out until that law was broken.  

Gods plan is for an eternal world in which holy people dwell.  Holy through a process they themselves go through for the love of God.  Because they love life the way God loves life.  

God created us not as robots saying I love you but as souls with freewill whos heart and soul will naturally love Him or not.  True love is only true when given of a heart and soul free to choose.  

I was pondering on the Word this morning and got to wondering how many people really understand the reason why Christians need to be persecuted, and tried, and distressed and all the rest and why it pleases God that that is how life in this flesh goes.  

If you think about it, we are set on this earth to "make a decision" on whether we will love and follow God or not.  

God loves us all so much that He is willing to let us suffer now because the end result is so wonderful we can't even imagine it and knowing what He does, He knows we will understand when we realize what it is all about,  and OUR part in HIS plan.  And when you look over His promises to us you find that He will be more than making it up to us,  the tribulations we go through now.  And He knows they are a lot.  And He tells us there are different rewards for the different works.  

Gold vessels of honor down through wood vessels of dishonor.  WE write our own script.  He judges it.  Walk holy towards perfection, do His works, obey His word and by the time you get there...your love, your effort, your close walk with Him is going to look good in writing.  

God is just.  We have free will.  Also, "Them"  has free will.  Judgment day is coming. 

If the evil don't persecute the good, then how are they to be judged come judgment day?  We are walking through the valley of the shadow of death, we are told that straight out, plain and simple.  We are told that we will be recompensed.  But NO DIFFERENT than God walked His walk and was persecuted, and beaten, and humiliated, do we walk ours.  Jesus humbled himself unto death FOR THE POWER THAT CAME FROM THAT.  We have a purpose in Gods plan.  

We are told we are going to suffer FOR HIS NAMESAKE.  But what happens when we take it as He tells us to?  He gets the evidence needed to judge those in need of that kind of judgment.  IF IT  





THESS 

Monday, August 17, 2020
5:26 AM
 

WHAT IS A PLAIN TOKEN OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD?

HOW ARE YOU TO BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD?

WHERE DOES PAUL BOAST ?

WHAT DOES HE BOAST ABOUT?




1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy To the church of {the} Thessalonians in God {the } Father of us and the Lord Jesus Christ
2 Grace to you and peace from God {the } Father of us and the Lord Jesus Christ
3 To thank we ought God always concerning you brothers just as fitting it is because is increasing exceedingly the faith of you and is abounding the love of one each of all you to one another 
4 So as for ourselves, us in you to boast in the churches of God about the perseverance of you and faith in all the persecutions of yo and in the tribulations that you are bearing
5  a plain token of the righteous judgment of God unto to be accounted worthy you of the kingdom of God for which also you suffer
6  For indeed righteous {it is} with God to repay those oppressing you with affliction
7  and to you being oppressed repose with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with {the} angels mighty of Him
8  in a fire of flame inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of the Lord of us Jesus
9 who {the} penalty will suffer of destruction eternal away from {the} presence of the Lord and from the glory of the power of Him
10  when He shall come to be glorified in the saints of Him and to be marveled at among all those having believed because was believed the testimony of us to you in the day that 
11 for which also we pray always for you that you He may count worthy of the calling of the God of us and He may fulfill every good pleasure of goodness and work of faith with power
12 so that may be glorified the name of the Lord of us Jesus in you and you in Him according to the grace  of the God of us and {the}Lord Jesus Christ
2:1
We implore now you brothers by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him
2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by  us as that is present the day of the Lord
3  No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction, 
4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth that he himself that is God
5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?
6 and now that which is restraining you for to be revealed him in his time.
7 the for mystery already is working of lawlessness only {there is} the {one} restraining {it} at present until out of {the}midst he might be {gone}
8 And tthen will be revealed the lawless {one} whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of the mouth of Him and will annul by the appearing of the coming of Him.
9 whose is coming, according to {the} working of Satan in every power and in signs and in wonders of falsehood
10  and in every deceit of wickedness unto those perishing in return for which  the love of the truth not they received in order for to be saved them
11  And because of this will send to them God a working of delusion for to believe them what {is} false
12 in order that should be judged all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness
13 We however ought to give thanks to God always concerning you brothers beloved by {the } Lord that has chosen you God from {the} beginning unto salvation in {the } sanctification of {the}Spirit and {by} faith of {the} truth
14 to this also He called you through the gospel of us to {the} obtaining of {the} glory of the Lord of us Jesus Christ
15  So then brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught whether by word or by letter from us
16 Himself now the Lord of us Jesus Christ and God the Father of us the {One} having loved us and having given {us} comfort eternal and hope good by grace
17 may He encourage your hearts and may He strengthen {them{ in every work and word
 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Brother O brother,

Hey, its been a while.

I challenged the "chronological" order of Revelation back in Nov 2019.

You are so absolutely positive that Rev is chronological that you never even responded. It should be quite easy for someone who is that convinced and that positive about the order Rev is written in, that a refute should be easy.  Did you not have anything to refute? 

Common sense tells us it is written IN AN ORDER..... 

Who is the "US".....certainly not very many that I know. Perhaps this "common sense" isn't as common as you think it is!

What does 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, &  7 mean, usually, when written? They are giving ORDER, or sequence. They are used over and over in Revelation. Some would agree, but say that means those things NOT numbered may be OUT of order. I disagree. 

The "US" is probably anyone who has learned to count.

Yes, I am positive. In general, events written in a given chapter, for example, chapter 12, will happen AFTER events of previous chapters (in this case: 1-11) and BEFORE events of later chapters (in this case, ,13-22). There are exceptions: events inside of a parentheses are not in John's chronology. Prophecy given by the elders is not in John's chronology, as they are FORETELLING future events that will come in later chapters. 

Of course, we all understand that chapter numbers were added later.

Do you challenge my premise: that is someone insists Revelation is NOT in Chronological order, then it is up to them to prove it? In other words, the "refute" is up to the challenger; in this case you. 

It is written: I don't have to prove that it is written: we all can read it. 

Question: why would anyone think God would not know what order future things would come?
 

[DeighAnn]

Until Satan accomplished having Christ killed, God could not sentence him to death.  Evil as he was, against God as he was, God is just and Gods law for the punishment of eternal death could not be carried out until that law was broken.  

Gods plan is for an eternal world,  in which holy people dwell.  Holy through a process they themselves go through for the love of God.  Because they love life the way God loves life.  

God created us not as robots saying I love you but as souls with freewill who's heart and soul will naturally love Him or not.  True love is only true when given of a heart and soul free to choose.  

I was pondering on the Word this morning and got to wondering how many people really understand the reason why Christians need to be persecuted, and tried, and distressed and all the rest and why it pleases God that that is how life in this flesh goes.  

If you think about it, we are set on this earth to "make a decision" on whether we will love and follow God or not.  

God loves us all so much that He is willing to let us suffer now because the end result is so wonderful we can't even imagine it and knowing what He does, He knows we will understand when we realize what it is all about,  and OUR part in HIS plan.  And when you look over His promises to us you find that He will be more than making up to us any of the tribulations we suffer through now.  And He knows they will be alot for some, not as much for others.  But like He says, "we will never get more than we can bare".   And He tells us there are different rewards for the different works.  

Gold vessels of honor down through wood vessels of dishonor.  WE write our own script.  He judges it.  Walk holy towards perfection, do His works, obey His word and by the time you get there...your love, your effort, your close walk with Him is going to look good in writing, or not. 

God is just.  We have been given free will.  WHICH MEANS "Them"  has been given free will.   It is good vs evil.   

If the evil don't persecute the good, then how are they to be judged come judgment day? What if an evil soul doesn't have anything written next to his name?  What is a just God to do then?   We are walking through the valley of the shadow of death, we are told that straight out, plain and simple.  We are told that we will be recompensed.  But, think about it though we walk NO DIFFERENT than God walked His walk in which He was persecuted, and beaten, and humiliated.  Jesus humbled himself unto death FOR THE POWER THAT CAME FROM THAT.  We have a purpose in Gods plan.  

We are told we are going to suffer FOR HIS NAMESAKE.  But what happens when we take THAT SUFFERING as He tells us to?  He gets the evidence needed to judge those in need of that kind of judgment.  IF IT wasn't for us, then evil would be able to make it to the next age. 

So take your persecutions and tribulations and distresses and all the rest, like you are OJT for God.  Store up that treasure in heaven where the rewards are awesome and you keep them forever.  They take a coat, give them more (or should I say give God what he needs,  and you become a better soul for God having advanced that walk with Him).  And then He can use you for more the next time knowing you understand His plan.  


Jesus chose to take upon himself the punishment for the sins of the world.  He chose to be the Lamb.  He chose to be made flesh.

So the next time evil comes against you and you are at a complete loss, accept it as God tells us to, take it as a compliment,  and enjoy  a LITTLE bit of sanctification, it makes for a better vessel.

 
Just putting it out there, as it came to me,  so at this point only my opinions, have not gone and found scripture for the specific backing.  I leave that up to you
 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by DeighAnn
because the first one wasn't supposed to

[wingnut-]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I believe that, given the context, this messenger is telling Daniel about the closer events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his abomination that occurred in 167 B.C.

 

The problem here is that the statue of Zeus was torn down in December of 164 and the sanctuary cleansed, that isn't enough days to make this fit.