The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Spock]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

I believe that, given the context, this messenger is telling Daniel about the closer events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his abomination that occurred in 167 B.C. We can't let ourselves forget the other events of Daniel 11 and think that Daniel is still being given information regarding the far distant future. The closer future would be more beneficial for the children of Israel for whom he was writing all this down.

Daniel 12:9-13 (KJV)

9 And he said,

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 

10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 

13 But go thou thy way till the end (HIS end) be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

Greetings brother Roy,

would you mind briefly sharing your thoughts on Daniels 70th week. I’m sure you have shared them many times before, but if you don’t mind cut and pasting them I’d be very appreciative.  I’m reanalyzing this in my thinking.  
 

I know you believe Yeshua initiated the Covenant that began the 70th week, but take it from there. Thanks....

spock

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings brother Roy,

would you mind briefly sharing your thoughts on Daniels 70th week. I’m sure you have shared them many times before, but if you don’t mind cut and pasting them I’d be very appreciative.  I’m reanalyzing this in my thinking.  
 

I know you believe Yeshua initiated the Covenant that began the 70th week, but take it from there. Thanks....

spock

Shalom, my brother, Spock.

Sure. Actually, it was YHWH, Yeshua`s Father, who initiated the Covenant that began the 70th Seven at Yeshua`s immersion by Yochanan ("John" the Baptist).

Matthew 3:13-17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying,

"I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

15 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

This is a partial fulfillment of the DAVIDIC Covenant, fortifying (strengthening) the covenant for the Jewish people, "many," but not all of Israel!

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It's not the "making" of the covenant; it's the "confirming" or "strengthening" of the covenant.

The Davidic Covenant is found in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17:

2 Samuel 7:12-16 (KJV)

12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. "

1 Chronicles 17:11-14 (KJV)

11 "And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."

The messenger Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") also reiterated this to Miryam ("Mary"), Yeshua`s ("Jesus' ") mother:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

The conclusion, then, is that the 70th Seven is confirming the Davidic Covenant to Israel by anouncing YHWH'S choice for His Messiah who will reign as King over the house of Ya`aqov forever! This is why I say that the 70th Seven is all about Yeshua`s legitimate offer of the Kingdom to Israel, starting with His own tribe of Yhudah, the "Jews."

This reflects how David ascended to the throne: Before he became king of Israel, reigning in Jerusalem, he was first reigning in Hevrown ("Hebron") for SEVEN YEARS!

1 Kings 2:11 (KJV)

11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 29:26-27 (KJV)

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

HOWEVER, Yeshua`s acceptance was denied by the leaders of His tribe, the Sanhedrin, the elders of the Jews, and the rejection of God's Son was considered a series of abominations:

Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters (teachers): for one is your Master (Teacher), even Christ (the Messiah). 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 "Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, 'Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!' 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, 'Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.' 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

This partially fulfilled Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, Yeshua` did what was prophesied He would do:

Matthew 23:38 (KJV)

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

This partially fulfilled the next part of the clause above: "he shall make it desolate,"

(I've got to stop here tonight.)

[The Light]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is kind of meaningless with a specific scripture. But You mention chapter 5.  Yes, OF COURSE the church age is over before the 70th week begins. But WHERE in Revelation does the 70th week begin? Where in Revelation is the rapture that ends the church age? Give  specific scriptures.

 

I would say the rapture is right here as we can see 24 elders around the throne clothed in white raiment with crowns of Gold upon their head. Now before you go on about how this is not the rapture of the Church, please provide the scriptures that prove that the rapture of the Church happens at the end of the 5th seal, as you contend. Thought so. Can't be done.

Rev 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ah! You mention 24 elders. People have tried to prove a rapture with the 24 elders for centuries. It won't work. God has given us no more information about them. In their song, they are singing about US.

Yes, that's right. The Church IN HEAVEN.

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

You see, it is NOT the 24 elders that are kings and priests:  It is US, the church. So YES,  "the 24 elders are speaking for others" I agree.  Your "facts" then are only yours, not real. 

So the Church is already in heaven  Now you have left scripture and gone into imagination. It is the ELDERS in heaven (not the church). Some try to say they are representing the church in heaven. Sorry, this is myth and cannot be proven by scripture. What this is really telling us is that there are 24 ELDERS in heaven. The question is WHEN? You see, you have totally MISSED the main theme of this passage. The main theme is the book and the TIMING. 

 

Note: in chapter 4 we read of the throne room seen, a vision seen around 95 AD, some 60 years after Jesus ascended. However, Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father where many verses say He should have been in 95 AD. This is a vision created by God Himself  - so there is PURPOSE in Jesus not seen. It is exactly what He wants to readers to notice. Stephen saw Jesus at the Father's right hand. What then is the MESSAGE God is trying to give us?

 

Next, we notice that the Holy Spirit (as the 7 spirits) is there in the throne room. Yet, Jesus said that as soon as He would ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down. Yet, here in 95 AD the Holy Spirit is still here in the throne room.  (Again this is EXACTLY what God showed John in the vision - and for a purpose." Then we go into chapter 5.

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [the BOOK is the main theme of this passage. Note that it is written WITHIN (past all the seals)]

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? [Angels, doing God's will. His will here: find SOMEONE worthy to take this book and get it OPENED.]

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [It should be obvious, but so many miss it: at this point in time, no man anywhere is found worthy - not even Jesus. WHEN? When would Jesus NOT have been worthy to take this book? Before He finished His work to become the Redeemer. At this time He had NOT "prevailed:" (see verse 5)  WHEN? Before Jesus rose from the dead: around 32 AD]

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [John knows somehow how important it is to get this book opened. He wept much because that search he watched ended in failure: no man was found worthy at that time. How much is "much?" Days? Hours? We don't know.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [time passes and things change. The first thing we notice is that someone has been found. This tells us (or at least hints very strongly) that another search was made after that one John watched had ended in failure. It also tells us that it is LION of Judah who is found. So what has happened between that first search when "the LION" was NOT worthy, to know when HE has BECOME worthy? It says "hath prevailed." What did Jesus prevail over that made Him worthy? John does not tell us, but other scriptures do: Jesus prevailed over DEATH. He became the "Redeemer." (When? Around 32 AD) 

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Remember, a throne room without Jesus, now a throne room WITH Jesus (around 32 AD: He has just prevailed over death. Jesus suddenly APPEARS where a moment before He was not there. And what is the very FIRST thing that happens? He immediately sends the Holy Spirit DOWN. God has given us hint after hint of TIME. Yet people ignore the hints and imagine all this is in their (the reader's) time. WHEN was a time when Jesus (even the preincarnate Jesus) would NOT have been seen in heaven? That would be while He was on the earth. As a man, He could not be in more than one place at a time. So God showed John a vision with Jesus MISSING. Remember, this is HIS BOOK: He is the main character! He God shows John a throne room and the MAIN CHARACTER is not seen. Why? It is showing us TIME: it is while Jesus is ON EARTH (or under the earth.)]

Then a search is made for someone worthy to open this book, but it ends in failure: NO MAN was found. Then TIME PASSES and another search FINDS JESUS. What has happened? He just rose from the dead: circa 32 AD. Again God is showing us TIME. Now, at last, the book can be opened! 

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [Jesus goes immediately to get the book. WHEN? If we believe John, as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.]

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [This is a monumental event: after thousands of years, FINALLY the time has come that this book can be opened. There is going to be praise in heaven! If we read ahead, we see that when the book gets opened, soon after, Satan is dethroned. He has remained the god of this world since Adam sinned. But finally, God shows us, He is going to get kicked off his throne. This gives us a STRONG hint that this book just could be Adam's lease document. 

Ancient Jewish sages, perhaps before the days of Moses, wrote that because God created in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, then man would rule the world for 6 thousand years, and God would rule the world for the 7th thousand years. Revelation seems to prove this true. I believe when the 7th trumpet sounds, 6000 years are up, Adam's lease expires, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth.  JMO

Judgement has not started. Judgement will not start until the 7th seal. I disagree, but we are close. i think it begins with the eathquake at the 6th seal. 

 

since we can prove that the Church is already in heaven, these have to be of the 12 tribes across the earth.  I disagree. Since you are in error imagining the 24 Elders as the church in heaven. This great crowd too large to number will be the just raptured church, raptured JUST before the start of WRATH, at the 6th seal. Notice they are seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. Imagine: perhaps 50 generations of believers in one huge crowd: I suspect several billion people. This would include all the children at the time of the rapture. It would take one human (counting one per second) over 30 years to count to one billion. This crowd is CERTAINLY too large to number! There is NO WAY  - even if ALL of Israel is saved - they will be this large of a crowd. We can know, this great crowd too large to number is the church. They are in heaven BEFORE the 70th week begins, so PRETRIB.

 

Rev 15:² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.  I'm glad you showed us this. This is the first of the martyrs beheaded by the Beast and False prophet as the days of GT JESUS spoke of begin. NOT in the seals, but late in chapter 14. 

Rev 14

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. yes, GREAT! The days of GT JESUS spoke of is JUST BEGINNING - as I always say, late in chapter 14. That is when the great tribulation JESUS spoke of will begin.

Which shown to us in Rev 6   No, you blew it! This is a totally different group of people. These at seal 5 are the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. The church age ends in Revelation just before the DAY OF THE LORD begins: at the 6th seal. 

As usual, you destroy the chronology of Revelation with your theories, proving they are error. 
However, since I believe the GT shown in chapter 7 is speaking of the church age, then I will have to agree with you that there is GT going on in the seals - Just not the GT Jesus spoke about.  It is church age great tribulation.

The editor is messing up so I can't comment where I would like and my time is limited.

Of course it's vision, which is why the seals are not opened. As to the 7 spirits of God, even though they are present in the throne room, they have already been sent, according to the scripture so your point is mute.

Rev 5

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Judgement has not started.  You were saying they were GT martyrs.  Since you don't believe the chronology given, I guess you can imagine anything. Here is John's chronology. I know, it is going to be water off the duck's back:

Chapters 4 & 5 show us the TIMING of the first seals: 32 AD

 

Chapters 4 and 5 are a future event of the rapture of the Church in heaven. Then God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes. So everything you think is about the Church after Rev 5 is either about the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, or Israel. Church is never mentioned again until Rev 19, in heaven.

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 6 starts the same timing: 32 AD, CHURCH AGE. Seal 5 is church age martyrs. 

Chapter 6 then moves from church age into the Day of the Lord when Judgment begins.

 

Chapter 6 starts God dealing with His chosen people. The 70th week of Daniel begins with the confirming of the covenant and then the rider on the white horse, a false Christ, the seventh king, goes forth conquering and to conquer. Seal 5 is the great tribulation. Seal six is the coming of Jesus prior to wrath. This can all be confirmed by matching what John said in Revelation to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. They agree.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 7 is an intermission: God MUST see two things finished before He can start the HURT on earth (judgment as in the 70th week)
   1: the 144,000 MUST be sealed before the WEEK can begin
   2. The church must be seen safely in heaven before WRATH

 

Chapter 7 tells you about the 144,000 that are sealed sometime in the 1st 4 seals. We can confirm this by Rev 13 and 14 which puts us back in the seals.

The great multitude includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured pre wrath.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 8, the start of the 70th week, and the start of the HURT on earth

 

Chapter 8 Begins the wrath of God. The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal when the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured before the wrath of God begins. The nation of Israel will be in a place of protection during Gods wrath..    

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 9 HURT continues

 

Gods wrath contimues

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 10: intermission: things have to be accomplished before the abomination that will divide the week and START the days of GT.
Chapter 11: The man of sin moves to Jerusalem with Gentile armies who will trample he city -just days before He will enter the temple..

 

Chapter 10 shows what happens up to when the 7th angel blows the 7th trump. Then John is told prophesy again and we get a different view of things with the conclusion of the 7th trump and the conclusion of the wrath of God.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

   The two witnesses suddenly appear in earth, just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple.
   The 7th trumpet sounds AS the man if sin enters the temple and caused the abomination Jesus spoke of.
   The first 6000 years are over, Adam's lease ends, A closing takes place: the kingdoms of earth are taken from Satan and given to Jesus.
Chapter 12  God introduces John to the dragon: mentioned 32 times in this chapter:
   The first five verses are a history lesson for John about the days of Jesus birth; how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child.
   Seconds after the abomination: those in Judea begin to flee
   War in heaven: Satan has no more legal hold on earth (He had usurped Adam's lease) and is now cast down from the heavenly realms.               he looses his wings.
   Satan goes after those who have fled, but discovers God is protecting them, so he goes after the remnant of those who love Jesus. 
Chapter 13: God introduces John to the Beast and False Prophet - who will CAUSE those days of GT: great PRESSURE upon people
   The man of sin who entered the temple in chapter 11 and declared he is GOD, has now turned BEAST. John sees him arising.
   He is given 42 months of authority.
   The False prophet shows up
   God shows us what they will do: they will cause the days of GT: they will created an image and a mark, and force people to receive it.
Chapter 14: God must WARN people before they accept the mark: if they do, they will be doomed to the lake of fire. 
   God also warns people to worship God and FEAR Him. After the warning, the Beast and False prophet being forcing the mark upon                      people: take the mark or lose their head. These are the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 
Chapter 15: the beheaded (from the days of GT Jesus spoke of) BEGIN to show up in heaven. Time passes as the murder of the saints                     reaches a frenzy during the days of GT.
Chapter 16: God pours out the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT. The 7th vial ENDS the 70th week.

See how smoothly this flows from church age to the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath into the 70th week, the trumpets coming in the first half, the abomination at the midpoint, then the fleeing, Satan cast down with great wrath (CAUSING the days of GT using the Beast and FP), then the rise of the Antichrist Beast and false prophet, then the creation of the Image and mark, God's warning, then days of GT begin, as the Beast forces all to take his mark, or lose their head.  You imagine the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the seals, but John has those days in chapter 14 through 16. (the point is, God can call OTHER times as GT, but not be the GT Jesus spoke of, that would be greater than any other. The truth is, the GT that this huge crowd came out of is the CHURCH AGE. 

In other verses, we are told the church age is tribulation. John said, "I john in THE TRIBULATION..." Since the church age will last around 2000 years, I think God has the right to call it mega, or great. This great crowd came out of the CHURCH AGE great tribulation. That is why Jesus had to ADD MORE WORDS when He spoke, telling us that the days of GT that will come after the abomination would be greater than any other time on earth.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice WHEN: The days of GT Jesus spoke of will come after the abomination that will divide the week. There is absolute proof of the division of the week as John gives us 5 countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week: 42 months of trampling, 1260 days of testifying, 1260 days of fleeing, 3.5 years of protection, and 42 months of authority, in chapters 11 through 13. (the EXACT midpoint is in chapter 11.)

So where is this fleeing from the abomination that divides the week? The abomination is in chapter 11, the fleeing is in chapter 12:6. 

The TRUTH then, "Judgment" begins with the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal with that great earthquake. (the opening salvo). Then judgment begins in earnest with the trumpets and vials. 

Since God has called the church age days of great tribulation, then I must agree with you: the seals  - up to seal 5 - are indeed church age and so according to Rev. 7 are days of GT - Just NOT the GT Jesus spoke of that will come much later in the book!

Got to quit. Big day tomorrow.

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The problem here is that the statue of Zeus was torn down in December of 164 and the sanctuary cleansed, that isn't enough days to make this fit.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Sure there is, brother! Calculating based on the Jewish calendar and using these Gregorian years, and the fact that December is either the month Shevat or Tevet (I used Microsoft Excel), we can have either a maximum of 1411, 1412, 1441, or 1442 days within this time period. A Jewish leap month is added usually every third year.

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290 da). 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335 da). 

Do we know what month the statue of Zeus was constructed and the pig sacrificed?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

  22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is kind of meaningless with a specific scripture. But You mention chapter 5.  Yes, OF COURSE the church age is over before the 70th week begins. But WHERE in Revelation does the 70th week begin? Where in Revelation is the rapture that ends the church age? Give  specific scriptures.

I would say the rapture is right here as we can see 24 elders around the throne clothed in white raiment with crowns of Gold upon their head. Now before you go on about how this is not the rapture of the Church, please provide the scriptures that prove that the rapture of the Church happens at the end of the 5th seal, as you contend. Thought so. Can't be done.

Rev 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Yes, that's right. The Church IN HEAVEN.

 

Let's look a little more closely: 

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

What TIME IS IT here? John said "I looked" and "I heard.." This is around 95 AD when John was alive! How then can this be the rapture of the church still in our future? The answer is, ONLY IN IMAGINATION.  Any beginning reader could tell us this is JOHN being called up to heaven, NOT THE CHURCH.  Sorry, we cannot form doctrine with imagination. It most come from the Written Word of God rightly understood. 

Thought so. Can't be done.

What do we have then? NO PROOF that those elders represent the raptured church. That too is only imagination.  After Jesus rose from the dead, who does the bible show as the NEXT people to rise from the dead? (thinking about who the elders could be in a vision of the throne room around 32 AD)

Mat. 27:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice the timing here: when Jesus rose from the dead. What is the timing in the vision John is watching? It is the throne room of 32 AD, the time Jesus rose from the dead: so we are talking about the SAME TIME.  I submit, who John saw as the elders are these very people (or some of them) that Jesus raised from the dead when HE rose from the dead. 

please provide the scriptures that prove that the rapture of the Church happens at the end of the 5th seal

 

1 Thes. 4

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [This is Paul's classic rapture verse.]

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [It is a comfort to know this is pretrib.]

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [Paul had already told them that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath or the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.]

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [Why would Paul mention the day of the Lord in a rapture passage - UNLESS the two are related.]

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [This is Paul's hint as to timing: when people are saying peace and safety.]

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [Again, Paul talking about the Day of the Lord in a rapture passage: WHY - unless they are related.]

...

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [in other words, get born again - get "in Christ" so you will be ready.]

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [At this moment in time, people will get EITHER wrath or salvation (raptured). Note carefully: at the SAME MOMENT IN TIME: the choice is, be in christ and get caught up, or be in darkness and get left behind. What happens to those left behind? They get "Sudden destruction." The choice then is to be raptured or suffer sudden destruction. But here Paul is calling this "sudden destruction" as the start of WRATH. Can you see now why Paul mentioned "THE DAY" just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse? They are linked: they are tied together: it will be age of grace, church age, one moment, and "the Day of the Lord" (WRATH) in the next moment.] 

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [HOW do we get to live with Him? It is by and through the rapture.]

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

This will all happen SUDDENLY, when people are thinking peace and safety, SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves - NO WARNING. Their resurrection will cause and earthquake. (Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...) This earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. It will start when the dead in Christ rise. But those alive and in Christ will be raptured just as they feel the ground begin to quake. But those left behind cannot escape: it will be a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be the world around. 

So we have two things to search for in Revelation: an earthquake and the start of WRATH. WE find BOTH at the 6th seal. For further proof, if we study the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, they are told they most wait for judgment until the final martyr is killed as they were - as church age martyrs. What event would cause a certain martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture that will END the church age. What is the next event John mentions after the 5th seal? The very judgment those at the 5 seal was asking about: the Day of the Lord. 
 

THINK: 5th seal is church age. 6th seal is the future start of WRATH. We are not there yet. Therefore, the church has been at the 5th seal (waiting for the last martyr or the total number) since the days of Stephen when he was martyred. 

See what happens when you leave things in their context? 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

The editor is messing up so I can't comment where I would like and my time is limited.

Of course it's vision, which is why the seals are not opened. As to the 7 spirits of God, even though they are present in the throne room, they have already been sent, according to the scripture so your point is mute.

Rev 5

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Chapters 4 and 5 are a future event of the rapture of the Church in heaven. Then God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes. So everything you think is about the Church after Rev 5 is either about the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, or Israel. Church is never mentioned again until Rev 19, in heaven.

 

Chapter 6 starts God dealing with His chosen people. The 70th week of Daniel begins with the confirming of the covenant and then the rider on the white horse, a false Christ, the seventh king, goes forth conquering and to conquer. Seal 5 is the great tribulation. Seal six is the coming of Jesus prior to wrath. This can all be confirmed by matching what John said in Revelation to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. They agree.

Chapter 7 tells you about the 144,000 that are sealed sometime in the 1st 4 seals. We can confirm this by Rev 13 and 14 which puts us back in the seals.

The great multitude includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured pre wrath.

Chapter 8 Begins the wrath of God. The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal when the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured before the wrath of God begins. The nation of Israel will be in a place of protection during Gods wrath..    

Gods wrath contimues

Chapter 10 shows what happens up to when the 7th angel blows the 7th trump. Then John is told prophesy again and we get a different view of things with the conclusion of the 7th trump and the conclusion of the wrath of God.

Got to quit. Big day tomorrow.

The editor is messing up   I get very frustrated with this server and the programming. One can start with this color as the default, or "automatic," but paste something and the automatic turns to whatever. Then there is not color there that matches this color. 

Of course it's vision, which is why the seals are not opened.  This is imagination with no back up scripture. First, the seals ARE opened in the vision, all of them. But we must determine which is vision and which is reality. For that we MUST follow the context. The context of seal one is the very time Jesus ascended. That is printed in chapter 5 for all to read. Most refuse to believe it. 

As to the 7 spirits of God, even though they are present in the throne room, they have already been sent, according to the scripture so your point is mute.  You are showing a lack of understanding of the text. It is 95 AD and John is seeing a VISION. But WHAT TIME IS IT in the vision? 
1. JESUS NOT SEEN in the throne room  (time? Around 2BC up to around 32 AD. That is the time frame of when Jesus was on the earth.)

2. Holy Spirit there in the throne room (Time? The Holy Spirit left the throne room and came to Jesus when He was baptized: circa 30 AD. So the time had to be BEFORE Jesus was baptized.

3. Jesus NOT FOUND in a search. (Time? Since we know Jesus WAS found later after He prevailed over death, the time has to be some time BEFORE He rose from the dead. 

4. Jesus now FOUND worthy. (Time? It has to be AFTER Jesus prevailed over death but before He ascended.

5. Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room WITH the Holy Spirit, but then immediately sends HIm down. (Time? We can get close: around 32 AD.

6. Jesus takes the book from the FAther and begins opening seals. (Time? the same time He ascended: around 32 AD)

I think you need to see it:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  [WHEN? Again it is no mystery. We KNOW when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.]

Notice, He arrives WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, but immediately sends Him down. The FIRST WORDS God spoke to me about chapters 4 & 5 are this: "IT SHOWS TIMING." Later, "IT ALSO SHOWS THE MOVEMENT OF TIME."  I was SO BLIND, I studied for perhaps hours a day for two weeks and could not see timing OR the movement of time! However, the blindness lifted and finally I could see it. Most people's preconceptions are so strong, they, like me, are blinded to what this passage is telling us. 

Chapters 4 and 5 are a future event of the rapture of the Church in heaven.  MYTH: the text will not back this statement up. It tells the opposite.

Then God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes.   MYTH: God is still in the church age and WILL BE until the 6th seal. We are still living in the time of the martyrs. Are martyrs still be added to the number? You KNOW they are.  note: when you get the timing right, this will be a true statement: AFTER the rapture (5th seal-6th seal) THEN God will turn His attention to Israel. The problem is, your timing is off. 

Church is never mentioned again until Rev 19, in heaven.  It is true, John did not use the word "church." But it is really MYTH: the martyrs of seal 5 are church age martyrs. John has not left the church age yet. That will not happen until seal 6 and the start of WRATH. This is just another theory that is in error. However, it is a very well used theory by pretribbers! Too bad it is myth. 

Chapter 6 starts God dealing with His chosen people. Chapter 6, IN CONTEXT is 32 AD. Anyone can make the bible say anything if they are willing to pull verses out of context. I really think people on these threads should know better. You really need to take off your preconceived glasses and hang out on chapters 4 & 5 until you understand God's message there. It is about TIMING, not the rapture. 

The 70th week of Daniel begins with the confirming of the covenant and then the rider on the white horse, a false Christ  This is just myth that comes from human reasoning and imagination: it has nothing to do with what is really written. However, the first part, not bolded, is truth. You went on a tangent when you mentioned the first seal, which is 32 AD. 

Seal 5 is the great tribulation  According to Jesus own words, you cannot get the the days of GT UNTIL FIRST you have the abomination. We can locate the abomination by the timing of those that flee when they SEE IT: and we find that fleeing in 12:6. You are therefore 6 chapters off in your theory. Will you change your theory to fit the scriptures? 

IN CONTEXT seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. John has not yet arrived at seal 6 that ENDS the church age and STARTS the Day of the Lord. 

Seal six is the coming of Jesus prior to wrath. I would say a second BEFORE seal six. It will be His coming as shown by Paul in 1 thes. 4: His coming FOR His bride. Is this your thinking to? His rapture coming? If so, you really need to rethink the time of GT. If this is His coming for the rapture (which it is) then seal 5 is church age. His coming will trigger the rapture events (including the dead in Christ) and then the rapture will trigger the DAY. 

matching what John said in Revelation to what Jesus said in Matthew 24. They agree.  I am glad you brought this up.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [When? Church age.]
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Everyone seems to skip over these words: what is Jesus saying here? He is NOT YET TALKING ABOUT END TIMES: meaning, he is still in the church age.]
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [Notice the preposition "For," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [The beginning of sorrows is CHURCH AGE.]
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [Notice the "Then:" it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [Notice the preposition "And," it ties this verse back to "the end is not yet."]
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [Finally Jesus mentions "the end." But he does not really get there until verse 15 with His mention of the Abomination: the very FIRST event of what we call "the end times." ]

Note verse 7: this aligns with seal 2, the red horse and rider, CHURCH AGE.
Note verse 7: Famines, pestilences earthquakes. Famines aligns with seal 3. Pestilences aligns with seal 4. And Jesus proves these are church age, exactly what Revelation (when context is observed) shows us. 

Chapter 7 tells you about the 144,000 that are sealed sometime in the 1st 4 seals.   This is more myth. The sealing is between seal 6 and seal 7. The truth is, God had to break his vision after the 6th seal, because the 7th seal begins the 70th week. TWO things must happen before that 7th seal officially starts the week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments and the CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven. CHECK! Both of these are accomplised AFTER the start of the Day of the Lord, but Before the start of the 70th week. (of course, you have to say this because of your misplaced days of GT.)

The great multitude includes the Church that will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes  Unless this can be backed up with clear scriptures showing any rapture of the 12 tribes. Paul tells us it will be those IN CHRIST who get raptured. Sorry, but the 12 tribes will not be "in Christ." they don't believe in Jesus as their Messiah.  What scriptures are you looking at?

The truth of this great multitude is that they are all those IN CHRIST, both dead and alive, PLUS all the children at the time of the rapture. 

Chapter 8 Begins the wrath of God.  Finally! This is something I can ALMOST agree with. I think wrath starts at the 6th seal.

The 70th week of Daniel is over at the 6th seal  No, go back and read: it is the Day of the Lord that starts there. The 70th week has not even started. (it is marked by 7's) Why were the 144,000 sealed after the 6th but before the 7th seal? Simple: the 70th week and the time of Jacob's trouble starts at the 7th seal. The trumpets start the 70th week. The midpoint comes at the 7th trumpet, proven by those in Judea fleeing seconds later. Further proven by John's 5 mentions of the last half of the week (1260 days, 42 months, etc) in chapters 11, 12, and 13.) I understand, anyone can make scripture fit any theory if they are willing to pull verses out of context. Like you, got to quit.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Sure there is, brother! Calculating based on the Jewish calendar and using these Gregorian years, and the fact that December is either the month Shevat or Tevet (I used Microsoft Excel), we can have either a maximum of 1411, 1412, 1441, or 1442 days within this time period. A Jewish leap month is added usually every third year.

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290 da). 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335 da). 

Do we know what month the statue of Zeus was constructed and the pig sacrificed?

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen anything other than the year, but you would think some historian would have recorded it, so I've probably just forgotten it.

[DeighAnn]

I forgot where I was reading but if I understood correctly,  the correction was made for the "Theory church" not being in heaven because 

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

the church wouldn't have even been started until AFTER this point, therefore could not be rapted until after this point. 

Is this correct?  

[Spock]

If I may add my two cents here....I think iamlamad is giving us a perspective that certainly is not being spoken by many so called prophecy experts but I think deserves our attention and study.

He is saying that as soon as Jesus ascended to Heaven, leaving Earth, right at that moment, he took the scroll and began to open the seals. This perspective has blown me away because I never thought of it and of course, no teacher was teaching it. I then read David Lowe’s book, Earthquake Resurrection, and he also proposes this perspective. After reading up on it, it actually made a lot of sense. I do believe the seals are different from what is inside the scroll....the trumpets and bowl judgments. This shows how they are different.  I do believe God’s wrath begins after 6th seal and this is the reason for the 30 minute silence in heaven.  It’s showtime folks!  Just to be clear, I am saying only the trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath, not the seals. I know this isn’t popular with most pre tribbers, but I’m not running for office and looking for votes here. 
 

Honestly, I can’t be dogmatic and say with 100% assurance this way of thinking is correct and everyone who doesn’t agree is wrong and needs to go in the corner until they acquiesce.  But seriously, please consider it if you haven’t. Iamlamad is a very good spokesperson and as you probably know, very knowledgeable, and can answer all of your questions much better than I could. But if you have any, I will try to make myself available. 
 

in conclusion, is it possible the 4 horsemen have been riding for the past 2000 years bringing their consequences for bad behavior and the 5th seal martyrs are just that.....martyrs in the church age?  And when the last martyr comes in, door closed, and then the dreaded 6th seal cosmic disturbances that even the earth dwellers recognize as God’s wrath about to unfold. I too, like iamlamad think this could be the rapture of the church time which will ultimately lead to world uncertainty and perhaps embolden some countries like Russia, Turkey, and Iran to go,into Israel to plunder their resources (Ezekiel 38/39). With the USA pretty much weakened due to economy and rapture, I doubt countries would have to worry about a USA response. 

And down the road, I wonder if this could then lead to a charismatic influential leader, probably from Europe, to rise up and provide the answers and stability the earth dwellers were looking for.  Perhaps even leading to a covenant being confirmed. I’m thinking this to mean that this leader would confirm the Mosaic covenant to be reinstituted in order to allow Israel to recontinue their sacrifices in their new to be Rebuilt temple. Perhaps the covenant with “the many” refers to the UN, convincing them, this is the right thing to do...especially after seeing what God just did to protect Israel. It would make sense not to think God couldn’t do this again if you get Him riled up again. 
 

anyhow, what are you thinking? Questions? Rebuttal?  Thanks for listening.

spock

[The Light]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's look a little more closely: 

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

What TIME IS IT here? John said "I looked" and "I heard.." This is around 95 AD when John was alive! How then can this be the rapture of the church still in our future? The answer is, ONLY IN IMAGINATION.  Any beginning reader could tell us this is JOHN being called up to heaven, NOT THE CHURCH.  Sorry, we cannot form doctrine with imagination. It most come from the Written Word of God rightly understood. 

Here, let me help you.

Rev 1

¹⁹ Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If you want to put these 95 AD constraints on what I have posted, why don't these same things apply to what you have posted. You want 95 AD me, but for you it's all a vision. How convenient. 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thought so. Can't be done.

What do we have then? NO PROOF that those elders represent the raptured church. That too is only imagination.  After Jesus rose from the dead, who does the bible show as the NEXT people to rise from the dead? (thinking about who the elders could be in a vision of the throne room around 32 AD)

The elders have white robes, they have crowns and there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations which proves that it must be the Church. No imagination necessary, as usual.

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Mat. 27:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice the timing here: when Jesus rose from the dead. What is the timing in the vision John is watching? It is the throne room of 32 AD, the time Jesus rose from the dead: so we are talking about the SAME TIME.  I submit, who John saw as the elders are these very people (or some of them) that Jesus raised from the dead when HE rose from the dead. 

I think that this is a good point, however, as per the Word, there are more than 24 kindreds and tongues and people and nations. Additionally, there is no proof that these people ascended to heaven and there is no scriptural support for such. They did not ascend when Jesus did.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

please provide the scriptures that prove that the rapture of the Church happens at the end of the 5th seal

 

1 Thes. 4

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [This is Paul's classic rapture verse.]

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [It is a comfort to know this is pretrib.]

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [Paul had already told them that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath or the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.]

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [Why would Paul mention the day of the Lord in a rapture passage - UNLESS the two are related.]

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [This is Paul's hint as to timing: when people are saying peace and safety.]

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [Again, Paul talking about the Day of the Lord in a rapture passage: WHY - unless they are related.]

...

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [in other words, get born again - get "in Christ" so you will be ready.]

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [At this moment in time, people will get EITHER wrath or salvation (raptured). Note carefully: at the SAME MOMENT IN TIME: the choice is, be in christ and get caught up, or be in darkness and get left behind. What happens to those left behind? They get "Sudden destruction." The choice then is to be raptured or suffer sudden destruction. But here Paul is calling this "sudden destruction" as the start of WRATH. Can you see now why Paul mentioned "THE DAY" just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse? They are linked: they are tied together: it will be age of grace, church age, one moment, and "the Day of the Lord" (WRATH) in the next moment.] 

These verses are to the 12 tribes. The church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened. See Rev 5 and the 24 elders speaking for a group of people.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

This will all happen SUDDENLY, when people are thinking peace and safety, SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves - NO WARNING. Their resurrection will cause and earthquake. (Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...) This earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction.

No, the sudden destruction comes with the beginning of the day of the Lord. They say peace and safety, immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It will start when the dead in Christ rise. But those alive and in Christ will be raptured just as they feel the ground begin to quake. But those left behind cannot escape: it will be a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be the world around. 

So we have two things to search for in Revelation: an earthquake and the start of WRATH. WE find BOTH at the 6th seal.

It is not the Church that will be raptured. They are in heaven before the seals and the 70th week of Daniel.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

For further proof, if we study the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, they are told they most wait for judgment until the final martyr is killed as they were - as church age martyrs.

The 5th seal is not Church age martyrs as the Church is already in heaven. The 5 seal martyrs are in the great tribulation. See Rev 7 those that come out of Great Tribulation. See Revelation 14, See Rev 15, they sing the song of Moses as they are of the 12 tribes as scripture proves over and over and over.

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What event would cause a certain martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture that will END the church age. What is the next event John mentions after the 5th seal? The very judgment those at the 5 seal was asking about: the Day of the Lord. 
 

THINK: 5th seal is church age. 6th seal is the future start of WRATH. We are not there yet. Therefore, the church has been at the 5th seal (waiting for the last martyr or the total number) since the days of Stephen when he was martyred. 

See what happens when you leave things in their context? 

Yeah, I see what happens when things are in context. The Church is in heaven in Rev 5. The false Christ, 7th king, goes forth conquering and to conquer. The 7th king gives his power to the eighth king. See Rev 13 and Dan 11. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. Then the tribes are raptured at the 6th seal coming of Jesus. No imagination necessary, just put things were they go and leave the sledge hammer in the closet.