Sweden: No lock down still working.

[LonerAndy]

https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-which-never-had-lockdown-sees-covid-19-cases-plummet-rest-europe-suffers-spike-1521626

Amid fears over a potential second wave of the novel coronavirus across Europe, new infections in Sweden, where full lockdown measures were not implemented, have mostly declined since late June.

The number of new cases per 100,000 people in Sweden reported over the last 14 days since July 29 dropped by 54 percent from the figure reported over 14 days prior to then, according to the latest report Wednesday from the World Health Organization (WHO).

Simply put, Sweden never had a lock down, and is not seeing a spike in cases, like the rest of Europe is, and the United States is.

Much like Japan never had a lock down either.

All the countries that had a lock down, are seeing spikes in cases.  No question the lock downs were counter productive.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-which-never-had-lockdown-sees-covid-19-cases-plummet-rest-europe-suffers-spike-1521626

Amid fears over a potential second wave of the novel coronavirus across Europe, new infections in Sweden, where full lockdown measures were not implemented, have mostly declined since late June.

The number of new cases per 100,000 people in Sweden reported over the last 14 days since July 29 dropped by 54 percent from the figure reported over 14 days prior to then, according to the latest report Wednesday from the World Health Organization (WHO).

Simply put, Sweden never had a lock down, and is not seeing a spike in cases, like the rest of Europe is, and the United States is.

Much like Japan never had a lock down either.

All the countries that had a lock down, are seeing spikes in cases.  No question the lock downs were counter productive.

Good observation.

[Debp]

15 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-which-never-had-lockdown-sees-covid-19-cases-plummet-rest-europe-suffers-spike-1521626

Amid fears over a potential second wave of the novel coronavirus across Europe, new infections in Sweden, where full lockdown measures were not implemented, have mostly declined since late June.

The number of new cases per 100,000 people in Sweden reported over the last 14 days since July 29 dropped by 54 percent from the figure reported over 14 days prior to then, according to the latest report Wednesday from the World Health Organization (WHO).

Simply put, Sweden never had a lock down, and is not seeing a spike in cases, like the rest of Europe is, and the United States is.

Much like Japan never had a lock down either.

All the countries that had a lock down, are seeing spikes in cases.  No question the lock downs were counter productive.

I watch NHK (news from Tokyo, Japan) regularly.   Japan is seeing a resurgence of the virus.   It is a real concern for them.

Since the virus hit, they did encourage people to stay inside as much as possible.   Also, their restaurants were closed to inside dining like us.  Workers were also staying home.   Their economy has been hit hard.

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/japans-covid-19-resurgence-more-than-1000-cases-reported-for-4th-straight-day-19702/

[LonerAndy]

8 hours ago, Debp said:

I watch NHK (news from Tokyo, Japan) regularly.   Japan is seeing a resurgence of the virus.   It is a real concern for them.

Since the virus hit, they did encourage people to stay inside as much as possible.   Also, their restaurants were closed to inside dining like us.  Workers were also staying home.   Their economy has been hit hard.

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/japans-covid-19-resurgence-more-than-1000-cases-reported-for-4th-straight-day-19702/

Sure.  So I'm not going to argue about what you read or saw, because I don't know what you saw.

What I can say... is that I have always been... what word... fascinated by Japan.  Always.  I've found their culture interesting, and for a long time I thought I'd marry a Japanese Christian wife.  (true story).

With that in mind, I routinely follow Japanese live streams, and have for years  One of my favorites is "robcdee" who is on Twitch. This is guy from Australia, 29 years old, who moved to Tokyo in 2013.  And his typical stream is him walking around Tokyo, talking with people, and seeing stuff.

Yesterday, he was walking around Tokyo, the stores were open, the restaurants were open, he was sitting with a dozen people in a restaurant.  People were all over the place.  Many didn't have masks.  And so on.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now again, I am not suggesting that the Japanese government is not taking things seriously.  Of course they are.  And I'm sure they are doing things in the background to support efforts.

However, they simply don't have a lock down.   At least as far as I can tell, and as far as I've seen reported.

That does not mean they do not make recommendation.   I'm all for recommendations.  For awhile (I don't know if they still do) but movie theaters were closed.

But that is hardly the massive lock down, and handing out fines for people siting in their cars, at a church parking lot.

Do you see the difference?   There is a massive difference between forcing people into a lock down.... and giving a recommendation.

Do you see the difference?   It makes me a bit said that the Japan is acting more like the land of the free, and the home of the brave... and the land of the free and the home of the brave.  There is something sad that the US is acting less like a country built on a inalienable rights endowed by our creator, than a country that doesn't believe in a creator.

Something is wrong there.

Has the Japan economy taken a hit?  Sure.  All economies have taken some sort of a hit really.  The fact is, economies are not isolated.  Drop in demand by one economy, will result in a drop in demand at another economy.

And, of course the Japanese that choose to stay home, will of course cause a drop in demand too.

Again... very different than having government force you to stay home, by demanding your business close... and giving a recommendation that you choose to take.  Very different.

[LadyKay]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:45 PM, LonerAndy said:

Sure.  So I'm not going to argue about what you read or saw, because I don't know what you saw.

What I can say... is that I have always been... what word... fascinated by Japan.  Always.  I've found their culture interesting, and for a long time I thought I'd marry a Japanese Christian wife.  (true story).

With that in mind, I routinely follow Japanese live streams, and have for years  One of my favorites is "robcdee" who is on Twitch. This is guy from Australia, 29 years old, who moved to Tokyo in 2013.  And his typical stream is him walking around Tokyo, talking with people, and seeing stuff.

Yesterday, he was walking around Tokyo, the stores were open, the restaurants were open, he was sitting with a dozen people in a restaurant.  People were all over the place.  Many didn't have masks.  And so on.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now again, I am not suggesting that the Japanese government is not taking things seriously.  Of course they are.  And I'm sure they are doing things in the background to support efforts.

However, they simply don't have a lock down.   At least as far as I can tell, and as far as I've seen reported.

That does not mean they do not make recommendation.   I'm all for recommendations.  For awhile (I don't know if they still do) but movie theaters were closed.

But that is hardly the massive lock down, and handing out fines for people siting in their cars, at a church parking lot.

Do you see the difference?   There is a massive difference between forcing people into a lock down.... and giving a recommendation.

Do you see the difference?   It makes me a bit said that the Japan is acting more like the land of the free, and the home of the brave... and the land of the free and the home of the brave.  There is something sad that the US is acting less like a country built on a inalienable rights endowed by our creator, than a country that doesn't believe in a creator.

Something is wrong there.

Has the Japan economy taken a hit?  Sure.  All economies have taken some sort of a hit really.  The fact is, economies are not isolated.  Drop in demand by one economy, will result in a drop in demand at another economy.

And, of course the Japanese that choose to stay home, will of course cause a drop in demand too.

Again... very different than having government force you to stay home, by demanding your business close... and giving a recommendation that you choose to take.  Very different.

If I may add to your comments. Mask wearing in Japan is very common and expected if you have an illness such as a cold, or flu ect ect. My husband had a work trip to Japan about 15 years ago, and he sent me photos of the people he was working with. One of them had a mask on. He explain to me that they guy was wearing a masking because he had a cold, and that is what people do in Japan when they have colds. They wear a mask. It is part of their norm. So just a thought here and nothing else. Could it be possible that Japan was able to no have a lock down, because the people's willingness to wear mask?  Which slowed the spread of Covid.  Also I think the people of Japan were more willing to follow the advice about stay away from crowded places ect ect.  Where as it seems in the US. People seem to want to rebel against anyone telling them what to do. They even refuse to wear mask.  Well anyway, just some thoughts. 

[LonerAndy]

On 8/4/2020 at 1:08 PM, LadyKay said:

If I may add to your comments. Mask wearing in Japan is very common and expected if you have an illness such as a cold, or flu ect ect. My husband had a work trip to Japan about 15 years ago, and he sent me photos of the people he was working with. One of them had a mask on. He explain to me that they guy was wearing a masking because he had a cold, and that is what people do in Japan when they have colds. They wear a mask. It is part of their norm. So just a thought here and nothing else. Could it be possible that Japan was able to no have a lock down, because the people's willingness to wear mask?  Which slowed the spread of Covid.  Also I think the people of Japan were more willing to follow the advice about stay away from crowded places ect ect.  Where as it seems in the US. People seem to want to rebel against anyone telling them what to do. They even refuse to wear mask.  Well anyway, just some thoughts. 

Good question and observations.

Yes, that is entirely correct.  If you are sick, wearing a mask in Japan is normal.  Two things about that.  First, in the US most employers send ill people home.  Now I realize that some people have had employers that expected you to work even while sick.... I personally have not had that experience in the 43 years of my life.  In fact, I have had 3 times where I had barely a sniffle, and my employer demanded that I go home, and not come back until I am well.

In Japan, they still have a protestant like work ethic, and it is normal for people to work even while they are sick.   I wager that if our country still had the protestant work ethic, where ill people still worked... that masks would be more common. 

Second, mask wearing is not compelled by government, nor are people trying to force others to wear masks in Japan.  They don't belittle them, look down on them, harass them, or pester them, in any way.

As I said before, Japan is behaving like the land of the free, and home of the brave, more than the land of the free and home of the brave.

I have no problem if people in today's society wish to promote mask wearing, to their fellow Americans.  The problem is, in a world based on freedom, you can't force people to do what you want.  Freedom, by definition, means people can choose to not do what you wish them to do.

By all means, encourage people to wear masks.  By all means, make a persuasive arguments for wearing masks.

But as I've seen in live video streams, people in Japan, many were not wearing masks, and not a single person anywhere was bothering them or hassling them about it.

Again, Japan is treating people, like they are free people, more than in the US, which is supposedly the land of the free.

And in fact, I think one of the primary reasons people are rejecting mask wearing, is specifically because of how they are treated.   When others look down on you, and mouth off at you, and berate you for not wearing a mask, that does not draw you to their position. It pushes you away.  People start thinking that if you are going to treat them like that, then they are not going to wear a mask specifically to annoy you.

Don't be a jerk to people who exercise their freedom in way you don't like.  I wager we would have more compliance with mask wearing, if people treated those who decided not to wear one, with more decency and respect. 

We're on a Christian forum, so I think it's fair to say that we understand this from a Christian perspective.  How do you get people to come to Jesus Christ?  By attacking them?  Insulting them, as being terrible heathens?  Does that draw people to Christianity?  Or does saying... Good news! Sins can be forgiven, and the Lord loves people.    Well the same is true of people and mask wearing.  Yelling at people for not wearing a mask, doesn't draw them to your position.  It just makes them want to annoy you.

As for the reason for Japan having fewer cases, being due to them being more willing to wear a mask...

Very debatable.  I think time will tell, if mask wearing was, or is, as effective as some claim, or effective at all.

Denmark has had fewer cases than the US, and they actually discouraged mask wearing from February until just this July.  By the logic that masks slowed the spread, Denmark which actively discouraged mask use, should have had the fastest spread of Covid-19 on the face of the Earth.

Additionally, while the media has promoted this hysteria in dramatic fashion, I don't see that people have refused to wear masks.  Every store I've been in, every employee has had a mask on.  When I was working, from February until April when I was laid off, everyone at work was wearing a mask.  When I go to the store, all the customers are wearing masks.

So other than the mass hysteria on the media networks, where are these millions of people refusing to wear masks?

Now again, there are always one or two, like that guy in California who got shot because he refused to wear a mask.  Which goes back to what I said above about respecting freedom, and treating people with dignity and respect, even when they use their freedom in a way you don't like.

Now certainly there are pockets around the country, of people who won't wear masks.  Obviously that is true.

And what I see from the Covid-19 map, is that those locations that have the tightest and most strict mask wearing requirements, are not having any fewer cases of Covid-19, than those places with more lax controls.   In some cases, the opposite seems to be the case.

So at this point... not looking at the endless waffling of "experts" that have only been consistent in being wrong, I'm not seeing much evidence that mask wearing has been beneficial.  Now who knows, perhaps next month they will come up with evidence they were... and I'll be more than happy to go for it.

One of the irritating things in this media fed hysteria, is that when a person does not follow X or Y recommendation, the media jump on it like that they all prove the hysteria point.   For example Herman Cain.

The problem is, what about the millions of people that got Covid, while following all the precautions?  What about the thousand that follow all the rules, and died of Covid-19 anyway?

For example myself.   I got very ill back in April.  I was ill for 2 full weeks.  I wore the mask.  I socially distanced.  I didn't go to church (because the church was closed).   I don't have any friends, so I wasn't going out to parties.  I wasn't hanging with family.  And my company hired people to go around hosing down everything with sanitizer, and as I said everyone wore masks.

I was about as isolated as one could get, and following all the directions.   Still got ill, for two weeks.  I wager that was Covid-19 honestly.  It matched pretty close to what the description of the illness was, although I was never tested.

Even if it wasn't Covid-19, how did I get ill?   I had the mask on, I was social distanced, I had disinfectant on everything.  Why didn't all the precautions work?

So I need more evidence to suggest masks have any real benefit.  I know there are people who make claims, but why do the claims not match the results we see?

Time will tell, I'm sure.  Eventually the data will come out, and we'll find out what really works, and what doesn't.