Charismatic?

[BeauJangles]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:45 PM, Michael37 said:

Sometime back I came across material giving reasons for all the symbols, furnishings, and costumes that attend the Roman and Anglo-Catholic Communions, as they describe themselves. The Bishop's mitre was passed off as representing the tongues of fire, but I am sure if the Bishops I have known, and there have been a few, were to speak in tongues during their services they would find themselves in hot water.

Also, according to some sources, such mitres pre-exist the Roman and Anglo-Catholic denominations, having been worn by pagans who worshipped a fish-god. 

The primary focus on my post was explaining in spite of our known or unfamiliar doctrinal points of contention they were not on the discussion board of topics. Not when it was an interdenominational gathering, and they were far more common then comparatively speaking. Addressing doctrinal issues can be explained optimally at a home church if you have one. Most were conducted as bible studies. 

[Paul James]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:49 PM, Michael37 said:

. . . there's Hell Fire, and Holy Fire,

. . . and then there's Strange Fire:

Lev 10:1-3  And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.  (2)  And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.  (3)  Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

What has your passage quote to do with the Charismatic movement?  It reads to me that Aaron's sons, who were not appointed to the priesthood intruded into the tabernacle and conducted a burned offering and paid with their lives.   To use this passage to describe the Charismatic movement is a gross misquote and misuse of God's Word.   Looks to me a case of taking a passage out of its proper context and shoe horning it into a context it doesn't belong.    In actual fact, Aaron's sons conducted the same burned offering as the priests, but the "strange fire" was because unordained and non-commissioned people offered it.

It seems to me that the majority of those who use Scriptures like this to criticise the Charismatic movement hardly read their Bibles in its entirety let alone study it, but rather they just pick out verses that suit them and apply them according to their own warped theology.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Paul James

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

What has your passage quote to do with the Charismatic movement?  It reads to me that Aaron's sons, who were not appointed to the priesthood intruded into the tabernacle and conducted a burned offering and paid with their lives.   To use this passage to describe the Charismatic movement is a gross misquote and misuse of God's Word.   Looks to me a case of taking a passage out of its proper context and shoe horning it into a context it doesn't belong.    In actual fact, Aaron's sons conducted the same burned offering as the priests, but the "strange fire" was because unordained and non-commissioned people offered it.

It seems to me that the majority of those who use Scriptures like this to criticise the Charismatic movement hardly read their Bibles in its entirety let alone study it, but rather they just pick out verses that suit them and apply them according to their own warped theology.

Hi Paul, How's the weather in Christchurch? 

How is my post a criticism of the so-called charismatic movement?

Nah. That's a huge jump to a wrong conclusion there.

[Paul James]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Paul, How's the weather in Christchurch? 

How is my post a criticism of the so-called charismatic movement?

Nah. That's a huge jump to a wrong conclusion there.

The weather is light overcast warm but with a very cool wind.

Seeing that the thread is about the Charismatic movement, and that John MacArthur equates the Charismatic movement as strange fire, I drew that conclusion.  And so I showed that what Aaron's sons did had nothing to do with the Charismatic movement.

Of course, the Charismatic movement has been seriously corrupted with false doctrine, kundalini manifestations, and New Age spirituality.   I was introduced to the Pentecostal movement in 1966, and then it was quite different and gospel based, and over the years it has evolved into the corrupted movement that much of it is today.   Modern Pentecostalism has either gone totally quiet with no manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, depending on three hymns and a sermon, or it has gone right overboard with extreme kundalini, over the top prancing, dancing, shouting and yelling, falling over, shaking, and jerking, with fake glitter falling from the ventilation system purporting to be gold dust, along with false teaching involving automatic prosperity and healing, with those who are poor and sick as having no faith and therefore not pleasing God.   Also we have the fringe groups that teach that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved, and other left field teaching that has nothing to do with the New Testament.

But then we have the genuine Charismatic groups who we never see on Youtube, who get on with joyful fellowship, true manifestation of the Spiritual gifts, preaching of the gospel of Christ, winning souls for the Lord.  They are the ones who don't need to advertise themselves on Facebook or Youtube because God is working with them and blessing them because He sees their genuine faith and love for the body of Christ.  They don't bother arguing with Cessationists, because they know these pelicans are denying God's Word and not living as Christians should, and therefore they obey God's word by having no fellowship with them.   They also keep themselves separate from the corrupted extreme groups to avoid being infected with the corruption that has separated those groups from the genuine ministry of the Holy spirit.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Paul James

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Paul James said:

And so I showed that what Aaron's sons did had nothing to do with the Charismatic movement.

Hi Paul, My post was tongue in cheek to the banter @enoob57 and not intended as an analogy between the unauthorised activities of Nadab and Abihu which cost them their lives.

It is an interesting aspect of the Bible that fire frequently features in the unfolding of God's Plan, both in the literal and metaphorical sense. As you know, many congregations adopt the iconic flame symbol of the Holy Spirit to emphasise some point of doctrine and practice they subscribe to, and I have in the past drawn attention to this in the past when bringing a message on God's use of fire.

I don't think congregations that identify or advertise as "charismatic" have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit as I have found that it moves anywhere it wants and does just as it wills, sometimes in the most unexpected places.

Joh 3:8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

1Co 12:11  But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

[Paul James]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Paul, My post was tongue in cheek to the banter @enoob57 and not intended as an analogy between the unauthorised activities of Nadab and Abihu which cost them their lives.

It is an interesting aspect of the Bible that fire frequently features in the unfolding of God's Plan, both in the literal and metaphorical sense. As you know, many congregations adopt the iconic flame symbol of the Holy Spirit to emphasise some point of doctrine and practice they subscribe to, and I have in the past drawn attention to this in the past when bringing a message on God's use of fire.

I don't think congregations that identify or advertise as "charismatic" have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit as I have found that it moves anywhere it wants and does just as it wills, sometimes in the most unexpected places.

Joh 3:8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

1Co 12:11  But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Agreed.  The manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit is not denomination-based.  It is Bible and therefore the Holy Spirit can distribute the gifts to any genuine believer in any denomination who desires the best gifts and makes their request to God for the best one for their particular situation.

One interpretation of John saying that God will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire was that he was speaking to unconverted Jews and if they remain unconverted until the judgment, they will meet the Holy Spirit but instead of coming to them in love and gentleness like a dove, He will descend on them with judgmental fire.   So it seems that those who apply the Scripture to the believers' baptism with the Spirit may be quoting the Scripture out of context.

Some may say that the tongues as of fire that rested on the heads of the 120 on the day of Pentecost was that baptism with the Spirit and fire.  But what was resting on the heads was not literal fire.  It was something like fire.  But it never happened like that for Cornelius' household, the Samaritans, or the Ephesian disciples of John.  It appears that the Day of Pentecost arrival of the Holy Spirit was a one-time event to signal the birth of the Church.   A little later when the group prayed because of persecution, the place was shaken and they were filled with the Spirit, but there was no rushing wind or anything like fire on their heads.

 

[Paul James]

It is interesting that cessationists accuse Charismatics of relying on experiences rather than Scripture.  But as I read Scripture I see many references to the gifts of the Spirit being available to the church in these end times, and note that Charismatics tend to adopt Sola Scriptura as the foundation of their faith.   But cessationists have absolutely no Scriptures at all to validate their cessationist view.  So I have concluded that they are relying on the own experience in the absence of any Scriptural proof.   It's a matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

It is interesting that cessationists accuse Charismatics of relying on experiences rather than Scripture.  But as I read Scripture I see many references to the gifts of the Spirit being available to the church in these end times, and note that Charismatics tend to adopt Sola Scriptura as the foundation of their faith.   But cessationists have absolutely no Scriptures at all to validate their cessationist view.  So I have concluded that they are relying on the own experience in the absence of any Scriptural proof.   It's a matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

You mean other than all of this world and all it ever entailed will not be remembered ... I would say experience of this life is absolutely of no importance in the eternal state for no one will recall any of it!
Isaiah 65:17 (KJV) [17] ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Revelation 21:4-5 (KJV) [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So while building upon the things that will not be remembered such as experiences here... I would suggest building on that which does not pass away.
 

[Paul James]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You mean other than all of this world and all it ever entailed will not be remembered ... I would say experience of this life is absolutely of no importance in the eternal state for no one will recall any of it!
Isaiah 65:17 (KJV) [17] ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Revelation 21:4-5 (KJV) [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So while building upon the things that will not be remembered such as experiences here... I would suggest building on that which does not pass away.
 

The perfect canon of Scripture interpretation in 1 Corinthians 13:8 has largely been discredited by the most reliable Bible commentators.  Even Calvin himself said it was to do with Judgment day.   Because Paul and the other Apostles expected Christ to return in their lifetimes, they had no conception of a completed canon of Scripture, therefore it is totally illogical that Paul would have referred to a complete a perfect set of Scriptures in what he said in 1 Corinthians 13.

There are plenty of Scripture references that fully support the continuation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit for use in the body of Christ until the end of the Church Age; but there are absolutely none that support the notion that they passed away at the end of the Apostolic Age.   That concept was dreamed up by a 19th Century theologian who put forward his own theory about why the gifts declined after the 4th Century.

All the church fathers right through to Augustine confirmed that tongues, divine healing, and casting out of demons continued long after the last Apostle died.  Augustine did a survey of his North African churches over one year and recorded 75 instances of miracles, including tongues, healing, and driving out of demons.  This reality caused him to do a total backtrack on his previous cessationist position.  He could not maintain the cessationist position when the very miracles he didn't believe in were actually happening in his churches.

Many modern African and Asian Christian pastors would just hold their sides and laugh at cessationists in the light of the many miracles of healing and release from demons that are happening in their churches.  I have a personal friend from South Africa who witnessed the healing of a severely disabled girl.  As the result of prayer, he heard the sounds of her bones moving back to their normal positions in her body, and she was totally healed on the spot.   He would dismiss cessationism as total garbage.

The Jesus of the Gospels expressed His compassionate nature in healing the sick.  If healing were a sign, then it was a sign that He was the Messiah, not just for the Jews but for us as well, and the reason why He healed people was not because He wanted to somehow prove Himself, but because of His deep compassion for sick people.  The cessationist Jesus is not the Jesus of the Gospels, but another religious "jesus" who lacks basic compassion toward sick people.  In actual fact, it is no jesus at all, just a figment of the imagination of cold, religious people who have no compassion for sick and suffering people.  They are content to stand by and allow afflicted people to die, rather than give up their religious views.

[Prycejosh1987]

On 8/25/2020 at 7:06 AM, CaptWalker said:

He also said prophesying was GREATER than tongues(1Corinthians-14:5)...

Its true i agree with Paul. Tongues is good for communication with God. If i talk in our language is great for identity and relationship. But if i prophesy, i would be blessing you and confirming a great future or foreseeable circumstances for you and everyone. Tongues is good for the few, prophesying is great for everyone. Paul says what i just said, Himself if we keeping reading on from what you just said.