When is the rapture?

[Spock]

11 hours ago, Moby said:

Thank you for the reply Spock!

I've noticed that most people on this forum have an a serious hang up to reading links posted such as this one I posted:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Rob seems to have answered every question you seem to be posing in your reply above. I would be interested in your opinion of that link after you have read it as you seem to be a deep thinker who is open to others thoughts as well which are great qualities to have!

Good morning Moby,

just want you to know I’ve been reading your blog, the one you cited for me to look at, all morning.  Very well written, easy to follow. 
 

Now I’m not going to say I agree with all of it because I don’t, but I rarely these days debate the timing of the rapture with people because it is too emotional and I believe more harm results than good, so I really don’t want to head down that path.

HOWEVER, the following passage surprised me. If interested, please explain your thinking as to how you came up with the identity of the  “woman”...

This wrath is God’s judgment upon the wicked who He uses to tribulate the saints to drive them out of the world just as the Jews fled Egypt into their wilderness in type. Many Christians will begin to flee into their wilderness during the first half of the tribulation of 1260 days:

Revelation 12:6  And the woman(church)  fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Thanks,

spock

[Moby]

10 minutes ago, Spock said:

Good morning Moby,

just want you to know I’ve been reading your blog, the one you cited for me to look at, all morning.  Very well written, easy to follow. 
 

Now I’m not going to say I agree with all of it because I don’t, but I rarely these days debate the timing of the rapture with people because it is too emotional and I believe more harm results than good, so I really don’t want to head down that path.

HOWEVER, the following passage surprised me. If interested, please explain your thinking as to how you came up with the identity of the  “woman”...

This wrath is God’s judgment upon the wicked who He uses to tribulate the saints to drive them out of the world just as the Jews fled Egypt into their wilderness in type. Many Christians will begin to flee into their wilderness during the first half of the tribulation of 1260 days:

Revelation 12:6  And the woman(church)  fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Thanks,

spock

Thank you for reading that link bro! Here is a reply I just made to "iamlamod" who continues to push this idea of two raptures. This has some scripture that will help understand why the church is the woman that is about to flee into their wilderness as the persecution ramps up:

Look I have had other men who said they had conversations with Jesus and He showed them great insights that turned out not to agree with the sum of Father's Word. Jesus warned us that there would be so much deceit in these last days that if possible the elect would fall for it:

Matthew 24:23-25  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ(self proclaimed anointed of God), or, Here; believe it not.  (24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.  (25)  Behold, I have told you beforehand.

You are trying to divide the first 5 verses of Revelation chapter 12 from the 6th verse to try and paint your narrative but anyone who reads this passage as a whole can clearly see that verse 6 is the conclusion of events spelled out in the first 5 verses:

Revelation 12:1-6  And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;  (2)  and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.  (3)  And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.  (4)  And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.  (5)  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.  (6)  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The 1st clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that Herod tried to kill Jesus but not the coming beast with 7 heads and 10 horns:

Revelation 13:1  and he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.

The 2nd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that the dragon has not yet used his tail to draw the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth!

The 3rd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that we as the church are all to be seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:6  and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

John didn't need a history lesson as He already was taught special prophecies none of the other gospel writers penned such as this passage:

John 16:17-23  Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?  (18)  They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith.  (19)  Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?  (20)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.  (21)  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.  (22)  And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.  (23)  And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

Jesus was very clearly prophesying of a future birth of a corporate body called the manchild and "they in verse 6 who would be caught up to heaven as the firstfruit of the last days who would nourish the coming exodus of a larger group of the church who begin fleeing the coming persecution by the beast:

Revelation 14:1-5  And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.  (2)  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:  (3)  and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.  (4)  These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.  (5)  And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

There is only ONE rapture/resurrection of ONE elect from the foundation of the world who are the ONE olive tree being ONE holy nation as Rob clearly proves here with hundreds of scripture that fits seamlessly into one truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Seems like Dennis1209 made an honest observation to me.

Also seems that Paul's understanding of:

• And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

was different than what Jesus meant.

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Spock said:

Good question....I have no idea. I’ve read 10 different articles or books with different theories. Honestly, none has slapped me in the face saying.... BELIEVE ME!  
 

IM listening if you want to share your thinking. Thanks.

Good morning Spock,

Well, let me preface it with: I'm personally a pre-tribulation believer and study the Bible in that context. I'm not out to argue or change anyone's mind, each of us has to come to our own belief and conclusion based on our studies, upbringing, denomination and many other factors. There are so many views, and I can't say with certainty I have the correct view on this topic. But based on the preponderance of biblical evidence in my mind, I've come to my personal view. Just trying to stick to the twenty-four elders and who they are and represent would be very lengthy, so I'm being very brief.

One of the first questions we need to determine first is, is Revelation written in chronological order [many debates on that issue also]. In my opinion, the Lord instructs John to write Revelation in historical and sequential order. There are parenthetical chapters inserted that I won't get into.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [past, present, future]. In John's day, we see the past and present in Chapters 1 - 3, then suddenly at chapter four, a door was opened in heaven, come up hither [John was Raptured to Heaven and starts the future], could John's catching up be symbolic of the church? Was Enoch a type and symbol of being caught up and out of harms way before impending judgment? Is the entire tribulation God's judgment?

OK back to my original thought. Who might be the four and twenty elders? Again, this is a personal opinion and others mileage will vary. 

Revelation 4:4 (KJV) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. [emphasis added]

Nowhere in the Bible are angels or celestial beings ever said to have crowns, only men. It's obvious these are redeemed men, if they are redeemed men, a Rapture had to have occurred. If the book of Revelation is written in chronological order, chapter four starts 'the things which shall be hereafter' pertaining to John's day, and the beginning of the tribulation. 

2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. [emphasis mine]

Biblical numbers are extremely important, the Lord is the Master mathematician and numbers carry great significance and meaning in the Bible, they represent something. 

Revelation 21:12 (KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Revelation 21:14 (KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  

Twenty-four is the biblical number for 'the priesthood". Twelve is the number of 'governmental perfection', or 12 + 12 = 24. These twenty four seem to show up just prior to the beginning of the Lamb starting to open the scroll, if Revelation is written chronologically. Could these twenty-four elders be the twelve Apostle's of the Lamb and the twelve tribes of Israel? This implies a general Rapture and the Bema Seat judgment and rewards has already occurred before or during the tribulation?  

Like I said, I could be mistaken in my view and I'm not adamant or dogmatic in my interpretations. I like discussing prophecy and the Bible, being a Berean, precept upon precept, and learning.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning Spock,

Well, let me preface it with: I'm personally a pre-tribulation believer and study the Bible in that context. I'm not out to argue or change anyone's mind, each of us has to come to our own belief and conclusion based on our studies, upbringing, denomination and many other factors. There are so many views, and I can't say with certainty I have the correct view on this topic. But based on the preponderance of biblical evidence in my mind, I've come to my personal view. Just trying to stick to the twenty-four elders and who they are and represent would be very lengthy, so I'm being very brief.

One of the first questions we need to determine first is, is Revelation written in chronological order [many debates on that issue also]. In my opinion, the Lord instructs John to write Revelation in historical and sequential order. There are parenthetical chapters inserted that I won't get into.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [past, present, future]. In John's day, we see the past and present in Chapters 1 - 3, then suddenly at chapter four, a door was opened in heaven, come up hither [John was Raptured to Heaven and starts the future], could John's catching up be symbolic of the church? Was Enoch a type and symbol of being caught up and out of harms way before impending judgment? Is the entire tribulation God's judgment?

OK back to my original thought. Who might be the four and twenty elders? Again, this is a personal opinion and others mileage will vary. 

Revelation 4:4 (KJV) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. [emphasis added]

Nowhere in the Bible are angels or celestial beings ever said to have crowns, only men. It's obvious these are redeemed men, if they are redeemed men, a Rapture had to have occurred. If the book of Revelation is written in chronological order, chapter four starts 'the things which shall be hereafter' pertaining to John's day, and the beginning of the tribulation. 

2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. [emphasis mine]

Biblical numbers are extremely important, the Lord is the Master mathematician and numbers carry great significance and meaning in the Bible, they represent something. 

Revelation 21:12 (KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Revelation 21:14 (KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  

Twenty-four is the biblical number for 'the priesthood". Twelve is the number of 'governmental perfection', or 12 + 12 = 24. These twenty four seem to show up just prior to the beginning of the Lamb starting to open the scroll, if Revelation is written chronologically. Could these twenty-four elders be the twelve Apostle's of the Lamb and the twelve tribes of Israel? This implies a general Rapture and the Bema Seat judgment and rewards has already occurred before or during the tribulation?  

Like I said, I could be mistaken in my view and I'm not adamant or dogmatic in my interpretations. I like discussing prophecy and the Bible, being a Berean, precept upon precept, and learning.

Greetings again my brother Dennis,

Firstly, I am rooting for your rapture belief (pre 70th week) to be the winner. 
 

secondly, I hope the 12 apostles are half of the 24 elders....it seems like they deserve such recognition.  Who are your Israeli 12 tribes elders?  I know God wS pretty upset with a couple of these guys. 
 

thirdly, you said no angel has ever worn a crown....so, who is this in Rev 14 that I highlighted? 

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.”

16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 ¶ Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.

 

i guess locusts coming out of the abyss with crowns doesn’t count.....Rev 9:7

 

fourthly, honestly brother, I just see some “problems” with everyone’s theories....pre 70th week, pre wrath, and post trib......they all have holes if you ask me.  I have yet to align myself wholly with any of them.  I see a lot of good points in pre 70th week rapture doctrine, but I don’t have the answers to some “problems” regarding this doctrine.  Sigh.....I just have to keep studying and praying for wisdom.....(keeps me humble is a good thing....)

spock

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Moby said:

Thank you for reading that link bro! Here is a reply I just made to "iamlamod" who continues to push this idea of two raptures. This has some scripture that will help understand why the church is the woman that is about to flee into their wilderness as the persecution ramps up:

Look I have had other men who said they had conversations with Jesus and He showed them great insights that turned out not to agree with the sum of Father's Word. Jesus warned us that there would be so much deceit in these last days that if possible the elect would fall for it:

Matthew 24:23-25  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ(self proclaimed anointed of God), or, Here; believe it not.  (24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.  (25)  Behold, I have told you beforehand.

You are trying to divide the first 5 verses of Revelation chapter 12 from the 6th verse to try and paint your narrative but anyone who reads this passage as a whole can clearly see that verse 6 is the conclusion of events spelled out in the first 5 verses:

Revelation 12:1-6  And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;  (2)  and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.  (3)  And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.  (4)  And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.  (5)  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.  (6)  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The 1st clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that Herod tried to kill Jesus but not the coming beast with 7 heads and 10 horns:

Revelation 13:1  and he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.

The 2nd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that the dragon has not yet used his tail to draw the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth!

The 3rd clue Revelation 12:1-5 is not a history lesson is that we as the church are all to be seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:6  and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

John didn't need a history lesson as He already was taught special prophecies none of the other gospel writers penned such as this passage:

John 16:17-23  Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?  (18)  They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith.  (19)  Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?  (20)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.  (21)  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.  (22)  And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.  (23)  And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

Jesus was very clearly prophesying of a future birth of a corporate body called the manchild and "they in verse 6 who would be caught up to heaven as the firstfruit of the last days who would nourish the coming exodus of a larger group of the church who begin fleeing the coming persecution by the beast:

Revelation 14:1-5  And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.  (2)  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:  (3)  and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.  (4)  These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.  (5)  And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

There is only ONE rapture/resurrection of ONE elect from the foundation of the world who are the ONE olive tree being ONE holy nation as Rob clearly proves here with hundreds of scripture that fits seamlessly into one truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

Spocks musings....

rev 12:5: I  see the rapture here ( man child=church)   harpazo=caught up....snatched.....sounds like a rapture. 
 

Meanwhile.....

 

Rev 12:v6...woman =remnant Israel fleeing to Petra

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Also seems that Paul's understanding of:

• And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

was different than what Jesus meant.

I'm not following you. Can you give some additional information how Jesus and Paul differ.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Moby said:

I am going to try this one more time and then ignore your silly pretrib theory based on scripture that has nothing to do with proving a pretrib rapture!

Right, Jesus tells us exactly when He is coming and then tells us He will come in an hour that we think not. Nothing to see here. Right.

6 hours ago, Moby said:

You continue to try and divide the scriptures into two raptures even though Jesus clearly commanded us NOT to break the scripture.

 

John 10:34-36  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  (35)  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),  (36)  say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Paul clearly told us the church was in the wilderness proving it began thousands of years before Christ physical ministry for He was with them in the wilderness:

Acts 7:37-38  This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me.  (38)  This is he(CHRIST) that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

 

 

1 Corinthians 10:1-4  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  (2)  and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  (3)  and did all eat the same spiritual food;  (4)  and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
 

Paul, Peter, John, and all the apostles clearly taught the same exact gospel to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles:

 

Acts 13:46-47  And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.  (47)  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

Paul was clearly quoting Isaiah in Acts chapter 13:

 

Isaiah 49:6  yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

Abraham was a Gentile:

 

Acts 15:14-18 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (15) And to this agree the words of the prophets;

 

Abraham, his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob were all Syrians:

 

Deuteronomy 26:5 And thou shalt answer and say before Jehovah thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father(Jacob); and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous(Israel).

 

God changed Jacob’s name to Israel:

 

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

 

The name “Israel” means “he will rule as God”:

 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3478&t=KJV

 

Please notice that Israel was promised to become both be a nation as well as a company of nations:

 

Genesis 35:10-11 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. (11) And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

 

This company of nations was a prophesy of the many believing Gentiles from all of the world who would become one holy nation with the believing Jews. Peter as a believing Jew declared himself a part of this holy nation with the believing Gentiles who are now the people of God as one body of Christ:

 

1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

Being bought by the blood of Jesus we claim by faith our bodies as the land for an everlasting possession ruling over it as a part of Israel bearing the good fruit that glorifies our Father in our bodies:

 

Genesis 35:12  and the land which I gave unto Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

 

Genesis 48:4 and said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a company of peoples, and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

 

Hebrews 6:7-8 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: (8) but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

 

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; (20) for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

 

Israel’s hands were guided by the Holy Spirit to bless Ephraim above Manasseh. Manasseh represents the physical nation of Israel whereas Ephraim represents a multitude of Gentile nations:

 

Genesis 48:14-20  And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born. (15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who hath fed me all my life long unto this day, (16) the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (17) And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. (18) And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head. (19) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He(Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother(Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (20)  And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

 

Joseph being sold into Egypt by his physical brethren represents what Jesus, born of the tribe of Judah, experienced at the hand of His Jewish brethren.  Though both Judah and Joseph came through Israel, Jesus became the spiritual seed that bears spiritual children while the birthright passed through Joseph’s two sons being Manasseh as type of the believing Jews and Ephraim as a type of the believing Gentiles from many nations:

 

1 Chronicles 5:1-2 And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s couch, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. (2) For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the prince(Jesus); but the birthright was Joseph’s),

 

Jesus made this analogy abundantly clear when He said “there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last”:

 

Luke 13:28-30 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. (29) And they(believing Gentiles) shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (30) And behold, there are last(believing Gentiles) who shall be first, and there are first(believing Jews) who shall be last.

 

First born Manasseh represents the lost sheep of physical Israel who Jesus said must first be invited into the kingdom:

 

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: (6) but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

But the majority of the citizens of His physical country hated Him and refused the invitation of their King:

 

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, We will not that this man reign over us.

 

So Ephraim representing a much greater company of Gentile nations are now coming in first and then a remnant of Jews will be unhardened to the gospel as the Lord finishes the executing of His Word upon the earth:

 

Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

 

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: (28) for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

 

If Isaiah was clearly prophesying in chapter 49 that the Gentiles were coming into salvation then he would have known and prophesied of them in chapter 60 as he did calling them the "nations" which included a remnant of all nations from Israel as well as all the other nations of the world from the time of Christ until today who will gather themselves together spiritually as ONE during the tribulation!:

 

Isaiah 60:3-4  And nations shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.  (4)  Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: they all gather themselves together, they come to thee; thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be carried in the arms.
 

Paul clearly proved the "election of grace" extended clean back in Elijah's day in Romans chapter 11 when he said "also at this present time":

 

Romans 11:1-7  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

 

This proves "election of grace" was from the foundation of the world not just since Christ:

 

Ephesians 1:3-6  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:  (4)  even as he chose(election) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:  (5)  having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  (6)  to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

 

ALL the scriptures clearly fit into one beautiful story of redemption of ONE people who will be called ONE olive tree called ALL Israel but the same distortions of the scriptures that Jesus, Paul, and the apostles faced 2000 years ago have occurred again by the many denominations today:

 

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10  That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.  (10)  Is there a thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been long ago, in the ages which were before us.

 

Jesus clearly says He will raise up His people at the "last day" which Rob clearly proves is after the tribulation in this part of his link:

So this great and notable day after the tribulation is a year long of wrath also called the “last day” when Jesus said He would raise up those that believe on Him:

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

This is when the last trump is blown and the Lord our God will gather us as His flock up from the earth in the “last day” which we learned above is called the “year of His redeemed” and is also referred to as “that day”:

Zechariah 9:14-16 And Jehovah shall be seen over them; and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Jehovah will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. (15) Jehovah of hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. (16) And Jehovah their God will save them in that day as the flock of his people; for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted on high over his land.

Christ’s resurrection after the cross was called the “firstfruit” which took place around 30 AD:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22  But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruit of them that are asleep. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

So “Christ the firstfruit” took place in 30 AD then they that are Christ’s at his coming “in the last day” is the only other resurrection/rapture of the saints and “then cometh the end”:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

 

Please study this link and cast out your silly theory of two rapture/resurrections because it does not fit the sum of Father's Word!:

 

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

I hear lots of squawking but not much substance relating to the points I have made. You seem unable to counter with anything more than a bunch of unrelated scriptures. And I did read the entire link and pointed out the most obvious errors. If I pointed out everything that was wrong it would take too long. God is turning His attention to Israel during the 70th week of Daniel. It is not the Church being raptured after the tribulation as we can already see the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

6 hours ago, Moby said:

This “last day” resurrection/rapture cannot be 3 1/2 years into the tribulation as the midtribbers claim or 7 years before the last day/year as the pretribbers claim:

Gee, this is nice. We can agree. However what you fail to see is that it is not the Church being raptured from the earth on the the "last day".  It is the 12 tribes across the earth, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN, that is raptured from the earth on the last day. The Church will come from heaven on the day to be with the Lord in the clouds. Where the body is, the eagles will be gathered.

Here is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

6 hours ago, Moby said:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens are no more, they will not awake, nor be roused out of sleep.

So the resurrection/rapture cannot happen until the last day/year after the sun is darkened and the wrath of God begins to cause the heavens to pass away and the earth begins to be burnt up:

2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

The heavens could not pass away or the earth burn up at the beginning or even the middle of the seven years of tribulation or there would not be anybody here to experience “great tribulation”!  The resurrection and rapture could only be during the last year called “the day of the Lord”.

Yes there will be a resurrection/rapture on the last day. But it will not be the Church being gathered from the earth as they are already in heaven. See Rev 5.

Again, I see lots of dancing but no substance. While you're busy struggling with the branches of the olive tree, seemingly oblivious to the timing of the grafting, you should learn the parable of the fig tree.

[The Light]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Correct. 

I see it as conspicuous by absence. When the coming of Christ is shown in great detail, and the gathering is shown in detail, and the presence of a great multitude no man could number is shown on a sea of glass, and it is said they have come from out of within GT, and we know all this is a coming of Jesus and a gathering of His people, all sometime after the week begins either mid, post, or prewrath;

 

The coming of Jesus is at the end of the week and the rapture will be pre wrath. But it won't be the Church being raptured from the earth, it will be the 12 tribes across the earth.

Quote

it's quite an omission to leave out any description of a pretrib group taken off the earth alive and gathered about the throne of God.

 

Are you expecting Jesus to give you a roadmap to that coming? He was kind enough to pinpoint His coming before wrath, as you say, in great detail. How can He possibly return in an hour that you think not if He draws you a roadmap. That said, since we can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5, I don't see it as an omission at all. You just need understanding.

Quote

 

It must be a group numbering in the billions what with the dead and living being raised to be with Christ forever. A sinless, morally perfect group in the billions of people suddenly gone and not a single mention of the resulting chaos nor lauding of their sinless, perfect walk before the Lord and their reward in heaven. 

 

I doubt it will be in the billions as the gate is narrow and the bride must be READY.

Quote

 

This omission is in contrast to the the group that does appear in heaven having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb; a groups we know came out of GT and taken off the earth immediately before wrath falls and in concert with the appearance of Jesus.

 

There is no omission. He is coming when the GOODMAN thinks not. How would that be possible? He is coming more that once, which we can prove over and over and over.

Quote

 

Then since there is no other comparable description and we know the one described is for sure a gathering, there isn't a pretrib gathering.

Yep, there is a for sure gathering whose timing is pinpointed, just before wrath. And yet:

A) If you pay attention as to who is being raptured from the earth, it is not the Church.

B) We can see the Church in Heaven in Rev 5

C) How can we escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass if we have to go through them.

D) How can He come in a hour that we think not if He is not coming twice.

E) He will come when it will be like the days of Noah for the Church. LIKEWISE ALSO He will come when it is like the days of Lot.

Not sure what else you need to know.

Edited August 31, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Right, Jesus tells us exactly when He is coming and then tells us He will come in an hour that we think not. Nothing to see here. Right.

I hear lots of squawking but not much substance relating to the points I have made. You seem unable to counter with anything more than a bunch of unrelated scriptures. And I did read the entire link and pointed out the most obvious errors. If I pointed out everything that was wrong it would take too long. God is turning His attention to Israel during the 70th week of Daniel. It is not the Church being raptured after the tribulation as we can already see the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

Gee, this is nice. We can agree. However what you fail to see is that it is not the Church being raptured from the earth on the the "last day".  It is the 12 tribes across the earth, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN, that is raptured from the earth on the last day. The Church will come from heaven on the day to be with the Lord in the clouds. Where the body is, the eagles will be gathered.

Here is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Yes there will be a resurrection/rapture on the last day. But it will not be the Church being gathered from the earth as they are already in heaven. See Rev 5.

Again, I see lots of dancing but no substance. While you're busy struggling with the branches of the olive tree, seemingly oblivious to the timing of the grafting, you should learn the parable of the fig tree.

I finally figured out why your so confused! What your seeing in heaven in Revelation chapter 5 is all the souls who have gone on before us such as Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8  Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord  (7)  (for we walk by faith, not by sight);  (8)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Who are waiting to return with the Lord in the clouds for their glorified bodies:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17  But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.  (14)  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  (15)  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.  (16)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;  (17)  then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here is further proof that there is only ONE resurrection/rapture of the church AFTER the 7 years of tribulation copied from this awesome link of truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

let’s pull some precepts together from here a little and there a little to determine who the “church saints” are:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

From 1 Corinthians 1:2 we can conclude that all those sanctified in Christ Jesus are called saints and are the church of God:

Romans 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek(Gentile): for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: (13) for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek(Gentile), there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.

Colossians 3:11-12 where there cannot be Greek(Gentile) and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on therefore, as God’s elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

From those 3 passages we can conclude that all distinction between the Jew and Greek(Gentile) is erased as believing “saints” for we are one body in Christ Jesus, are Abraham’s seed, and therefore God’s “elect”:

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

As Abraham’s seed, this “elect” body of “saints” have been chosen from the foundation of the world as ONE spiritual house, ONE holy nation, ONE flock, and ONE body of Christ:

Ephesians 1:3-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: (5) having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: (7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, (8) which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, (9) making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him (10) unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

1 Peter 2:1-10 Putting away therefore all wickedness, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, (2) as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation; (3) if ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious: (4) unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious, (5) ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (6) Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame. (7) For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; (8) and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

John 11:51-52 Now this he said not of himself: but, being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; (52) and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad.

So the scriptures have established that the church is made up of saved Jews and Gentiles as one body of “saints” in Christ who are the “elect” from the foundation of the world and who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time:

1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This ONE body of “saints” will be gathered together in the clouds as HIS “elect” from the utter most parts of heaven which includes all the dead from Abel onward with those who are alive and remain on the uttermost parts of the earth in the rapture/resurrection “after the tribulation”:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven(those raptured) to the other(those resurrected).

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth(those raptured) to the uttermost part of heaven(those resurrected).

So “immediately after the tribulation” the “elect” who are “the church” who are “the saints” are gathered together with Christ in the clouds with the sound of the last trumpet:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Father is going to shorten the days of the great tribulation for the elect’s sake clearly proving we will be here through the entire tribulation:

Matthew 24:21-24 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.