CaptWalker Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 441 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/20/1970 Share Posted August 25, 2020 Why are these "charismatic" believers always saying that speaking in tongues is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but never mention prophesying? It is something i have been wondering about ever since i became a true Christian about 25 years ago, but for some reason just let it slide, and assumed that what "they" were saying was true. But i just can't get past what it says in 1st Corinthians 14:5 where Paul says that "he who prophesies is GREATER than he who speaks with tongues"(NKVJ)...so why then do "they" always emphasize the tongues but not the prophesying? And why should the average person/believer just take THEIR word for it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 269 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,245 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,523 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, CaptWalker said: Why are these "charismatic" believers always saying that speaking in tongues is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but never mention prophesying? It is something i have been wondering about ever since i became a true Christian about 25 years ago, but for some reason just let it slide, and assumed that what "they" were saying was true. But i just can't get past what it says in 1st Corinthians 14:5 where Paul says that "he who prophesies is GREATER than he who speaks with tongues"(NKVJ)...so why then do "they" always emphasize the tongues but not the prophesying? And why should the average person/believer just take THEIR word for it?? Hi CaptWalker, I was brought up in a Pentecostal/Apostolic Church denomination. I receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit when I was a teenager in the mountains of New Zealand at a young people`s camp. I remember the Maoris were singing and praising the Lord and I did too and then out came this language of the spirit. I have then spoken in tongues in private prayer for nigh on 50 years. So I believe the people you talked to, were just giving the answer that they were told. However you are correct and that the infilling of the Holy Spirit can be evidence by speaking in tongues and prophecy. The `tongues` is not necessarily for the congregation but for private prayer to edify and build yourself up in the spirit. Lately I have been thinking that believers need to do that more as the days are getting more difficult. Often believers haven`t been encouraged to do this and tend to think of it as a once of expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, CaptWalker said: Why are these "charismatic" believers always saying that speaking in tongues is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but never mention prophesying? It is something i have been wondering about ever since i became a true Christian about 25 years ago, but for some reason just let it slide, and assumed that what "they" were saying was true. But i just can't get past what it says in 1st Corinthians 14:5 where Paul says that "he who prophesies is GREATER than he who speaks with tongues"(NKVJ)...so why then do "they" always emphasize the tongues but not the prophesying? And why should the average person/believer just take THEIR word for it?? Different Pentecostal denominations have different teachings about this; e.g., in Britain, the AoG say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit; whereas, Elim say that it's either speaking in tongues or prophesying. Charismatics tend to be all over the place, doctrinally speaking. As general guidance, check everything against what the Bible says. The book of Acts covers a transitional period (from Old Covenant to New Covenant), so not every experience in Acts should be regarded as normative nowadays (I'm not a cessationist, just to pre-empt any assumptions). Baptism in the Holy Spirit happens at conversion, nowadays, and may, or may not, be accompanied by a manifested gift of the Holy Spirit, at God's discretion. 1 Cor. 12:12-14 (WEB) 12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. At conversion, we are baptised, in the Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ. In Acts, there were four groups that had to be included in the body of Christ (Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles and disciples of John the Baptist). Each one of these groups had an initiatory "Pentecost" experience, witnessed by one or more apostles, so that all were verified as being part of the body of Christ. This has been done, so is no longer required; but that does not mean that there cannot be manifestations of the Holy Spirit at conversion nowadays. Edited August 25, 2020 by David1701 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leah777 Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,393 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,156 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 I dont accept that any public evidence is needed to prove we are baptised in the holy spirit. God knows His sheep, we do not have to prove it by displaying Gifts to others. Not all Born Again Christians speak in tongues or prophesy, even in private. Others should not be judging the spiritual status of another based on the Gifts they may or may not have. I also believe that tongues, and all Gifts, are spontaneous and not something people should try to have happen or cultivate in order to consider themselves as 'real' Christians, or be consider so by others. There are many Gifts listed, so why prophecy or tongues are singled out as some sort of proof of being Born Again is beyond my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.91 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 25, 2020 9 hours ago, CaptWalker said: Why are these "charismatic" believers always saying that speaking in tongues is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but never mention prophesying? Simply ask for a complimentary copy of Charisma and you'll see plenty of stuff on prophesy, though little if any mention of tongues in their publication. You'll have to wade through the rubbish and spam though. Glossy Christian magazines are expensive to print, just so you know. Mom used to get this and some of the adverts on so called Apostles and Prophets were almost laughable. Charisma will print anyone's promos on revival meetings, books, etc., if they'll pay enough for their commercial purposes. Some is obviously not doctrinally correct, but they will put it out there to the gullible public at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 9 hours ago, CaptWalker said: Why are these "charismatic" believers always saying that speaking in tongues is evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but never mention prophesying? It is something i have been wondering about ever since i became a true Christian about 25 years ago, but for some reason just let it slide, and assumed that what "they" were saying was true. But i just can't get past what it says in 1st Corinthians 14:5 where Paul says that "he who prophesies is GREATER than he who speaks with tongues"(NKVJ)...so why then do "they" always emphasize the tongues but not the prophesying? And why should the average person/believer just take THEIR word for it?? THEY/WE don't do this. My fellowship emphasizes prophecy/encouragement/words of knowledge etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.91 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 25, 2020 3 hours ago, David1701 said: Different Pentecostal denominations have different teachings about this; e.g., in Britain, the AoG say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit; whereas, Elim say that it's either speaking in tongues or prophesying. Charismatics tend to be all over the place, doctrinally speaking. Yeah, this is true. It varies though depending on how new the church is. Older more established congregations hold on to "The Sawdust Trail" of tent show Pentecostal revivalism. Others go more for musical entertainment and revving up the attendees. May I ask who are the "Elim"? I've not heard of them or the abbreviation is unfamiliar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 31 minutes ago, BeauJangles said: Yeah, this is true. It varies though depending on how new the church is. Older more established congregations hold on to "The Sawdust Trail" of tent show Pentecostal revivalism. Others go more for musical entertainment and revving up the attendees. May I ask who are the "Elim"? I've not heard of them or the abbreviation is unfamiliar to me. I used to attend an Elim congregation, many years ago. It's a British Pentecostal denomination, which originated around the time of the Welsh revival. https://www.elim.org.uk/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadworm Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 300 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/13/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) The doctrine that tongues is THE initial evidence of Spirit baptism is based on 3 facts: (1) In the Book of Acts new believes are baptized in the Spirit 4 times. In 3 of the 4 cases the initial evidence of this baptism is speaking in tongues. In the 4th case, the initial evidence is not specified, but when Simon the Magician sees what happens, he offers Peter money to bestow on him the power of imparting the experience. If that inference is correct, then that's 4 for 4--a pattern sufficient to establish the doctrine. (2) In Mark 16:17 the risen Jesus identities speaking in tongues as the 2nd sign of the true believer. (3) In 1 Corinthians Paul says he wants everyone to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else (14:5, 18). This wish and Paul's reinforcing example are allegedly based on the doctrine of tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism. Edited August 26, 2020 by Deadworm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leah777 Posted August 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,393 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,156 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Deadworm said: The doctrine that tongues is THE initial evidence of Spirit baptism is based on 3 facts: (1) In the Book of Acts new believes are baptized in the Spirit 4 times. In 3 of the 4 cases the initial evidence of this baptism is speaking in tonges. In the 4 the case, the initial evidence is not specified, but when Simon the Magician sees what happens, he offers Peter money to bestow on him the power of imparting the experience. If that inference is correct, then that's 4 for 4--a pattern sufficient to establish the doctrine. (2) In Mark 16:17 the risen Jesus identities speaking in tongues as the 2nd sign of the true believer. (3) In 1 Corinthians Paul says he wants everyone to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else (14:5, 18). This wish and Paul's reinforcing example are allegedly based on the doctrine of tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism. Ok. So I am not saved. Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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