Let's talk about the faith of Jesus Christ

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Ok. It looks as if  you aren't examining the scripture that I'm presenting. If you are, please explain the last verse I posted. 

I'm not searching for your last verse only to prolong this argument.  If you want me to comment on something, put it all in the same post.

[Peterlag]

4 hours ago, JohnD said:

Why?

Because in this post I'm looking at the Christ, God's anointed and therefore his faith. I'm not looking at man's faith. The difference is I'm putting Christ in front of others and they are putting themselves in front of me.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

[Peterlag]

It's also worth noting that it takes far more self-confidence, more wisdom, more love, and more sensitivity to govern what is personal and free, than it does to govern that which one has absolute control of. A God totally in control can run a world of controlled beings. But what is magnificent about that? If everything in the universe is already set? Then the conversation God has with humans is more like that between a ventriloquist and the dummy. Such a dialogue is merely a sophisticated form of talking to oneself.

[JohnD]

15 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Because in this post I'm looking at the Christ, God's anointed and therefore his faith. I'm not looking at man's faith. The difference is I'm putting Christ in front of others and they are putting themselves in front of me.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

But my question is

Are the scriptures you cite referring to a faith that Jesus has or

the benefit of our having faith in Jesus?

For

Of

by

in

these are extremely subjective words even in the Greek.

You don't take aspirin FOR a headache to get a headache (for example).

You mention man's faith... Ephesians 2:8 clearly states that "man's faith" is not "man's faith" (not of yourselves... it is the gift of God).

And Acts 10:38 which you cite above can be interpreted Jesus' Messianic commission / anointing and the power to do the miracles he [could have done on his own see John 5:19 b] but was under the constraint of being as one of us 

1.  which is what messianic office called for that he live his life as a man
2.  which is what the devil in the three temptations was trying to get him to break
3. which is probably why Jesus actually wept at the tomb of Lazarus: the man Jesus was overwhelmed with emotion at the prospect of the rare occasion of raising the dead with his own power (which the Father gave him the go ahead to do).

The Son can do nothing of his own accord... what he sees the Father do this he does also...

Clearly there are things (being the God man) which were kept from Jesus:

1. he had to learn and grow as a human being (Luke 2:52)
2. he did not know who touched him (Luke 8:45-46)
3. he did not know the day / hour of his return (Matthew 24:36)

There is some indication that even the Holy Spirit is not privy to all the Father has reserved unto himself (Acts 1:7) since even the Holy Spirit must search the mind of the Father (1 Corinthians 2:10).

Which I suspect (but cannot prove) that the emptying  Christ experienced (Philippians 2:7) may refer to more than the limitations of omnipresent God becoming a localized man... perhaps this involved emptying himself of his omniscience (which would explain how he did not know certain things)... to be able to deal with temporal humanity. And apparently the Holy Spirit also experienced this emptying (at least in part).

Some have suggested (but I am not convinced about this) that the Father is the omniscient one in the triune Godhead, the Son is the omnipotent one in the triune Godhead, and the Holy Spirit is the omnipresent one in the triune Godhead. I believe the biblical claims of equality in the triune Godhead is that each are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent... or they were until operation save mankind began and certain aspects of their abilities had to be assuaged. For how long? Eternity to come. Jesus is the [resurrected] God-man forever and ever.

The Bible says the old heaven and earth will pass away and in it's place a new heaven and new earth (post general resurrection / judgment day).   I personally interpret that to mean an infused new heaven-earth (as we also will be infused with our spirits and perfected bodies becoming a spiritual body)... but don't take my word for it... Acts 17:11 / 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Getting back to the faith of Jesus...

It doesn't make sense that among the things he was emptied of that it would include not knowing he is God incarnate (which is the ultimate conclusion of Jesus having to have faith would mean). This brings up an interesting point about Adam and Eve: was there a point in their lives before the fall that they did not KNOW there is a God?

I say they had complete knowledge that there is a God their entire lives.  Even after the fall. That their sin is what separated them from God and doomed their race to not only this separation... but being born into unbelief. Neither Adam or Eve were actually born. And both were specially created before the fall.

Jesus is the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) a prototype created by the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). Adam (the first prototype) was created by the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) Adam was the son [direct creation] of God [the Word] (Luke 3:38).

Both Adams were created in the perfection of sinlessness.  And that would have to include a knowledge of God.

Unless I am completely wrong... Jesus only had knowledge of the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Himself. No faith required... or even possible once you KNOW what you know.

[David1701]

22 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Because I have other posts on different sites with folks asking me questions and I don't have a staff to help me with one person who asks 21 questions at a time.

LOL!  I did not ask 21 questions; in fact, I did not ask you any questions!  I gave you many verses, as evidence that faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/257387-lets-talk-about-the-faith-of-jesus-christ/?do=findComment&comment=3287170

[Peterlag]

19 hours ago, JohnD said:

But my question is

Are the scriptures you cite referring to a faith that Jesus has or

the benefit of our having faith in Jesus?

For

Of

by

in

these are extremely subjective words even in the Greek.

You don't take aspirin FOR a headache to get a headache (for example).

You mention man's faith... Ephesians 2:8 clearly states that "man's faith" is not "man's faith" (not of yourselves... it is the gift of God).

And Acts 10:38 which you cite above can be interpreted Jesus' Messianic commission / anointing and the power to do the miracles he [could have done on his own see John 5:19 b] but was under the constraint of being as one of us 

1.  which is what messianic office called for that he live his life as a man
2.  which is what the devil in the three temptations was trying to get him to break
3. which is probably why Jesus actually wept at the tomb of Lazarus: the man Jesus was overwhelmed with emotion at the prospect of the rare occasion of raising the dead with his own power (which the Father gave him the go ahead to do).

The Son can do nothing of his own accord... what he sees the Father do this he does also...

Clearly there are things (being the God man) which were kept from Jesus:

1. he had to learn and grow as a human being (Luke 2:52)
2. he did not know who touched him (Luke 8:45-46)
3. he did not know the day / hour of his return (Matthew 24:36)

There is some indication that even the Holy Spirit is not privy to all the Father has reserved unto himself (Acts 1:7) since even the Holy Spirit must search the mind of the Father (1 Corinthians 2:10).

Which I suspect (but cannot prove) that the emptying  Christ experienced (Philippians 2:7) may refer to more than the limitations of omnipresent God becoming a localized man... perhaps this involved emptying himself of his omniscience (which would explain how he did not know certain things)... to be able to deal with temporal humanity. And apparently the Holy Spirit also experienced this emptying (at least in part).

Some have suggested (but I am not convinced about this) that the Father is the omniscient one in the triune Godhead, the Son is the omnipotent one in the triune Godhead, and the Holy Spirit is the omnipresent one in the triune Godhead. I believe the biblical claims of equality in the triune Godhead is that each are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent... or they were until operation save mankind began and certain aspects of their abilities had to be assuaged. For how long? Eternity to come. Jesus is the [resurrected] God-man forever and ever.

The Bible says the old heaven and earth will pass away and in it's place a new heaven and new earth (post general resurrection / judgment day).   I personally interpret that to mean an infused new heaven-earth (as we also will be infused with our spirits and perfected bodies becoming a spiritual body)... but don't take my word for it... Acts 17:11 / 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Getting back to the faith of Jesus...

It doesn't make sense that among the things he was emptied of that it would include not knowing he is God incarnate (which is the ultimate conclusion of Jesus having to have faith would mean). This brings up an interesting point about Adam and Eve: was there a point in their lives before the fall that they did not KNOW there is a God?

I say they had complete knowledge that there is a God their entire lives.  Even after the fall. That their sin is what separated them from God and doomed their race to not only this separation... but being born into unbelief. Neither Adam or Eve were actually born. And both were specially created before the fall.

Jesus is the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) a prototype created by the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). Adam (the first prototype) was created by the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24) Adam was the son [direct creation] of God [the Word] (Luke 3:38).

Both Adams were created in the perfection of sinlessness.  And that would have to include a knowledge of God.

Unless I am completely wrong... Jesus only had knowledge of the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Himself. No faith required... or even possible once you KNOW what you know.

May I ask you a question? This Acts 3:16. Whose faith is mentioned?

Acts 3:16b
...the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

[David1701]

11 hours ago, Peterlag said:

May I ask you a question? This Acts 3:16. Whose faith is mentioned?

Acts 3:16b
...the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

Acts 3:16 (KJV) And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Two main things to note here:

1) The faith is "by him" (i.e. by Jesus Christ) - it is a gift from God, not something generated by man.

2) The healing was "through faith in his name" (i.e. through faith in the character and authority of Jesus Christ).

This was, without question, referring to Peter's faith in the Lord, which had been given to him by the Lord.

[JohnD]

20 hours ago, Peterlag said:

May I ask you a question? This Acts 3:16. Whose faith is mentioned?

Acts 3:16b
...the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

The faith IN Christ. Peter was deferring the wonderment over what he did to that which faith IN Christ did to him (Peter) in the presence of those there.

[Guest]

I've done some research on "faith in Jesus Christ" and "faith of Jesus Christ".  This goes back to Calvin and Barth arguing the phraseology.  It bares a much deeper look into this phraseology to see what it means and where it is taking the Christian faith.

[Peterlag]

12 hours ago, David1701 said:

Acts 3:16 (KJV) And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Two main things to note here:

1) The faith is "by him" (i.e. by Jesus Christ) - it is a gift from God, not something generated by man.

2) The healing was "through faith in his name" (i.e. through faith in the character and authority of Jesus Christ).

This was, without question, referring to Peter's faith in the Lord, which had been given to him by the Lord.

Two main things here:

1.) I am very happy that somebody somewhere can understand that Jesus Christ has his own faith. That such a thing does occur in the Bible.

2.) I hate to rain on the party... but how is it without question that it is referring to Peter's faith? Why can't it be the man's faith who received the healing?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Peterlag