Who replaced Judas as the 12th Apostle?

[Sister]

On 9/8/2020 at 9:09 PM, enoob57 said:

This my answer in another thread just like it...
 

The effort in Matthias by lot seemed out of place to Spirit led NT activity...
Acts 1:26

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
KJV
However the direct witness of Paul from God was He was an apostle
Gal 1:1

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
KJV
Jesus chose the twelve by direct desire of the Father 
John 5:19

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
KJV
Taking this all into account we see Paul the same.... as the original 11 were chosen to apostleship for Judas was chosen to betray Jesus although it was not God's desire he do so
2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

Thanks Enoob57 

You have picked this up also!  It's another example of the Lord not spoon feeding us on certain matters, but revealing a truth through the scriptures as the stories and testimonies unfold.

[JohnD]

On 9/8/2020 at 1:31 AM, Sister said:

Does any one have the answer?

 

Judas was a tag along.

The twelfth disciple was the rich young ruler 

(who I believe we can adduce to be Saul of Tarsus).

Judas was counted among the 12 but appears to be the

one who was never actually called by Jesus.

Matthew 8:19–22 (AV)
19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus did not answer the scribe.

But turned to another to call him.

If this scribe is in fact Judas, then it would explain much about his being a plant

by the Sanhedrin and how he has access to that governing body.  His character was unscrupulous

from the beginning, note what the Apostle John wrote about Judas:

John 12:6 (AV)
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

He was a thief and stole from the money bag he was put in charge of.

John 17:12 (AV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 6:70–71 (AV)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve**, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

** The Greek text includes the article making this "the twelve" which is an inner circle designation more than a literal head count

notice the inner circle number of King David's men and the number of the tribes of Israel (13 but designated as 12).

[JohnD]

Oh with regard to the rich young ruler, he may have turned Jesus down for a time, but...

Romans 11:29 (AV)
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The prophet Jonah is proof of this.

Paul fits the psychological profile of the rich young ruler.

1. his astute biblical training led him to Christ
2. his standing and possessions had too great a hold on him at first
3. running away from his calling sent him down vindictive paths to the Christ and his followers
4. he learned after obeying the calling what truth is and what truly matters

Observe:

1. studied at the feet of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3)
2. I have learned how to abase and how to abound (Philippians 4:12)
3. persecuted the Church (Philippians 3:6 / Galatians 1:13)
4. count it all as dung (Philippians 3:7-8)

Judas and later Matthias were not the 12th disciple. Saul of Tarsus was.

Edited October 13, 2020 by JohnD

[Leonardo Von]

Certainly it was Paul

[LearningToLetGo]

There is a problem if the 12th apostle is Paul. That problem is that it makes the literal first action of the incipient church an error in judgement. How does one reconcile that?

[Michael37]

On 10/13/2020 at 1:54 PM, JohnD said:

Judas was counted among the 12 but appears to be the

one who was never actually called by Jesus.

You must be unaware of these verses:

Mat 10:1-4  And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.  (2)  Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;  (3)  Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;  (4)  Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mar 3:13-19  And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him.  (14)  Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach,  (15)  and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:  (16)  Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter;  (17)  James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, "Sons of Thunder";  (18)  Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite;  (19)  and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.
 

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

You must be unaware of these verses:

Mat 10:1-4  And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.  (2)  Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;  (3)  Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;  (4)  Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mar 3:13-19  And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him.  (14)  Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach,  (15)  and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:  (16)  Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter;  (17)  James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, "Sons of Thunder";  (18)  Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite;  (19)  and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.
 

Mark 16:7 (AV)
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

This is an overview statement that indicates the addition of the excluded one. In this case Peter who denied the Lord three times and was reinstated after Christ himself plied him with the three questions "Lovest thou me?"

Matthew 1-4 and Mark 3:13-19 are overview statements as well. Judas is the addition of the excluded one in them (given the information that there was a tag along who was not specifically called by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 8:18-22 and Luke 9:57-61). And Matthew 8:18 specifically indicates this uncalled tag along was a scribe. This would explain how Judas entered the presence of the Sanhedrin with ease. And that he was more or less a spy among the disciples. John 12:6 states Judas was a thief.

Then there's the matter of the postponed acceptance of the Lord Jesus' call to the rich young ruler (Luke 18:18-25) who by every indication of scripture was Saul of Tarsus: who later wrote:

Romans 11:29 (AV)
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Such details are not usually squeezed into general overviews. Judas the betrayer, the thief, and quite probably the spy for the Sanhedrin... who eventually became the only human in all recorded biblical history to be directly possessed by Satan the devil (John 13:26-27 / Luke 22:3) who 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 / John 17:12 names as the son of perdition / the antichrist that shall return (Revelation 20:1-7)... was just another called and commissioned disciple of God the Savior incarnate.

John 6:64 (AV)
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 13:11 (AV)
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Note I refrained from taking the potshot at you that you took at me in the beginning of your response.

Edited June 27, 2021 by JohnD

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Note I refrained from taking the potshot at you that you took at me in the beginning of your response.

Well you are in error.

[Alive]

8 hours ago, LearningToLetGo said:

There is a problem if the 12th apostle is Paul. That problem is that it makes the literal first action of the incipient church an error in judgement. How does one reconcile that?

The Lord made more than one correction in the early understanding of faith and doctrine--including Peter's understanding of Gentile inclusion, circumcision, etc.

Recall that the 11 were taught by Jesus as members of the Old Covenant. Paul was taught by Christ Himself after Pentecost.

Its also interesting and clear that it took the church in Antioch, that wasn't captive to Jewish tradition as was the case with the church in Jerusalem, to become more dynamic in evangelism. The Lord began to move focus very early on away from tradition, law and the synagogue in order to break free and thrive in the Spirit. The final and absolute break was 70AD.

Reading Acts along with the epistles relative to the history laid out in Acts and the timing of when the epistles were written...is interesting.

[David1701]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:31 AM, Sister said:

Does any one have the answer?

 

The apostle Paul.

When Matthias was chosen, by lot, the disciples had only given the Lord the choice between two people.  What made them think that God wanted either of them, or that they had the authority to decide from whom the Lord should pick?

We never hear about Matthias again...