JohnD Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 5 hours ago, Michael37 said: Well you are in error. Nope. You simply are not taking into account all of the scriptures on the subject and drawing a conclusion based on partial evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningToLetGo Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 717 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 660 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 2 hours ago, David1701 said: When Matthias was chosen, by lot, the disciples had only given the Lord the choice between two people. What made them think that God wanted either of them, or that they had the authority to decide from whom the Lord should pick? This opens up such a can of worms though. The assertion that Matthias was not the twelfth apostle is not trivial. If the very first thing the new church did -- to chose a replacement for Judas -- was in error then everything the church has done since then is subject to review. Is it possible that "twelve" apostles actually means "thirteen?" Is there a scriptural precedence for such numerology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 Casting lots. Quite acceptable if you read about the urim and thummim. It was how things were decided for centuries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 41 minutes ago, LearningToLetGo said: This opens up such a can of worms though. The assertion that Matthias was not the twelfth apostle is not trivial. If the very first thing the new church did -- to chose a replacement for Judas -- was in error then everything the church has done since then is subject to review. That is correct, everything that man (including people in the church) does, is subject to review. They used an OC method of deciding between two people whom they had chosen; but, this was now the NC, in which the leading of the Holy Spirit is the way to go. In any case, the apostles were always chosen by Jesus, not mere men (this includes the apostle Paul). Quote Is it possible that "twelve" apostles actually means "thirteen?" Is there a scriptural precedence for such numerology? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningToLetGo Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 717 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 660 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, David1701 said: They used an OC method of deciding between two people whom they had chosen; but, this was now the NC, in which the leading of the Holy Spirit is the way to go. In Matthew 16:19, Jesus gives his disciples authority to make binding decisions for his church, at least that's how I read it. Denying this decision flies in the face of that. Perhaps something more is going on here. Does there have to be only twelve apostles? Is is possible Matthias is an apostle along with the eleven and together they reflect the people of Israel, whereas Paul is the thirteenth apostle and reflects the gentiles? Edited June 27, 2021 by LearningToLetGo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted June 27, 2021 I think it may be some help to consider what the Lord inspired Luke to write at the beginning the the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Luke makes it clear that Jesus was continuing to both act and teach in and through the Church after His ascension. Acts 1:1 (ESVS) In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2021 3 hours ago, LearningToLetGo said: In Matthew 16:19, Jesus gives his disciples authority to make binding decisions for his church, at least that's how I read it. Denying this decision flies in the face of that. Perhaps something more is going on here. Does there have to be only twelve apostles? Is is possible Matthias is an apostle along with the eleven and together they reflect the people of Israel, whereas Paul is the thirteenth apostle and reflects the gentiles? Matt. 16:19 (WEB) I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven. Matt. 18:15-18 (WEB) 15 “If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother. 16 But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Most certainly I tell you, whatever things you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever things you release on earth will have been released in heaven. The binding and loosing are to do with assembly discipline. The idea is that whatever God has bound or released in heaven, the leaders bind or release down here. They should have prayed for God to grant a replacement, without presenting him with their choice of two from which to pick. Matthias is only mentioned in respect of the lot and not before or afterwards. The Lord showed them which of those two was the better fit; but that does not mean that Matthias was a genuine apostle. He was numbered with them, but that's all. The Lord's choice of replacement was shown later on, on the road to Damascus... The Lord always chose his apostles himself and called them personally. Regarding your thirteen apostles idea - no! There were twelve and one was replaced. This replacement wrote a large chunk of the NT. Rev. 21:13,14 (WEB) 13 On the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted June 27, 2021 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,952 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,871 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Online Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted June 27, 2021 6 hours ago, JohnD said: Nope. You simply are not taking into account all of the scriptures on the subject and drawing a conclusion based on partial evidence. Well when two Gospel accounts include Judas Iscariot in the twelve that Jesus called and appointed, and the narrative explains he was in charge of their finances, and places him at the Last Supper; and when the first chapter of Acts requires there be a replacement to his episcopate, any conclusion that Judas Iscariot was not one of the original twelve called and appointed by Jesus for His purpose, is irrational. Act 1:15-17 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) (16) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his episcopate let another take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 28, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2021 5 hours ago, Michael37 said: Well when two Gospel accounts include Judas Iscariot in the twelve that Jesus called and appointed, and the narrative explains he was in charge of their finances, and places him at the Last Supper; and when the first chapter of Acts requires there be a replacement to his episcopate, any conclusion that Judas Iscariot was not one of the original twelve called and appointed by Jesus for His purpose, is irrational. Act 1:15-17 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) (16) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. (17) For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his episcopate let another take. He was numbered with the disciples. The text doesn't say was was one of us. He was not a called disciple. Luke 22:3 (AV) 3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. He was numbered among them. He tagged along but was not called. "The twelve" was idiomatic like the 12 tribes of Israel (which there were 13). And the 12th disciple was and is the Apostle Paul (who later answered the call). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 28, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2021 Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. The apostles had not yet received the holy ghost promised to them when they chose Matthias. They were still thinking carnal. This would soon change as they would be led by the spirit of God to do their job, always seeking the Father's will and not their own as Jesus did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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