The commonwealth of Israel

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I think I agree with you both to some degree.  The northern 10 tribes of Israel were never called "Jews" only the kingdom of Judah which only included the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin and some of members from the tribe of Levi.  Being an Israelite was more then just being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  It was more about keeping the covenant.  If you were a descendant but failed to keep the covenant you were cut off from Israel and not considered a Israelite.  On the flip side if you were not a natural born Israelite (Gentile) but joined yourself to Israel and kept the covenants you were also treated and considered a covenant Israelite just like a natural born Israelite.  So when scriptures say not all Israel are Israel is true, being a descendant does not make you a true Israelite.  When Yahshua established the new covenant and was rejected by a Jew they were cut-off from Israel and by the same token Gentiles who enter into the new covenant and keep it they are grafted into Israel's covenant and promises.  God promises in the last days that God is going to regather and rejoin both houses (House of Judah and House of Israel).   This event will be greater than the first exodus according to scriptures.  I believe Gentiles that are being saved are the lost sheep of Israel that had been scattered and mixed into all the nations.

Shalom, Jedi.

No, we are told in Scripture ...

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a JEW, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a JEW, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The same thing is NOT said about being a child of Israel! It was true ONCE UPON A TIME before the two nations separated, but not today. Today, the children of Israel from the 10 tribes are COUNTED as Gentiles! They don't know their own ancestry (although GOD knows), and they seldom keep ANY of God's commandments, except through some tradition! Many are no longer circumcised and haven't been since the days of Jereboam! The ones who lived in the Land during the early days of Rome (the Samaritans) were mixed with Idumean ancestry (children of Esau or Edom), like that of King Herod the Great. These were from the cities around Shomron ("Samaria") and they were, at best, "HALF-BREEDS!" This is why they were despised by the Jews of Jerusalem!

You're right when you said, "God promises in the last days that God is going to regather and rejoin both houses (House of Judah and House of Israel)," but "Gentiles that are being saved" are NOT the "lost sheep of Israel!" TRUE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL "are the lost sheep of Israel that had been scattered and mixed into all the nations."

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Moby said:

The northern ten tribes were swallowed up by Assyria. The Assyrian records show only a little over 27,000 Hebrews were taken into that captivity but most of the northern Jews were left in their land. The theology of “ten lost tribes” is false. Then Assyria was swallowed up by Babylon. In a series of three invasions, the Babylonians came against the whole land of Israel and finally the stronghold of Jerusalem. Nearly 70,000 Jews were taken to Babylon during these campaigns which included some of the northern kingdom who had remained in Canaan as well as some from Jerusalem. Then Medo~Persia swallowed up Babylon. Cyrus was moved by God to send the Jews who wanted to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple:

Ezra 1:1-3  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,  (2)  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, the God of heaven, given me; and he hath charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.  (3)  Whosoever there is among you of all his people, his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of Jehovah, the God of Israel (he is God), which is in Jerusalem.

This clearly included souls from all twelve tribes as Ezra records:

Ezra 6:17  And they offered at the dedication of this house of God a hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin-offering for all Israel, twelve he-goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Shalom, Moby.

While the sacrifices were made for all twelve tribes of Israel, that doesn't mean that children of Israel from all twelve tribes returned to the Land after the Jewish Captivity! Both Ezra and Nechemyahuw ("Nehemiah") gave LISTS of people who returned with them to the Land, and ALL of them were from families of the Kingdom of Yhudah (the Southern Kingdom), not from the Kingdom of Israel (the Northern Kingdom)!

9 hours ago, Moby said:

Ezekiel prophesies the tribes of Israel which includes Gentile strangers who are grafted in among them as ONE olive tree:

Ezekiel 47:21-23  So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.  (22)  And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you and to the strangers that sojourn among you, who shall beget children among you; and they shall be unto you as the home-born among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.  (23)  And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord Jehovah.

This passage is a PROPHETIC passage about the End Times! This SHALL happen when Yeshua` returns and the tribes of Israel are learned from God controlling the lot to disclose the various families among the Gentiles of the earth. Also, these "strangers" are indeed the Gentiles who are grafted into the Kingdom of the Messiah, the Kingdom of God!

9 hours ago, Moby said:

The northern tribe of Asher was recognized in the days of the birth of Christ:

Luke 2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity,

Anna was a PROPHETESS (a female prophet) and lived among the Levi'iym (the Levites)! She had SOME Asher blood in her, but she was probably married to a Levite husband! And, as I said, the tribes of the north were not completely deserted from the Land! There were many who were left in the Land but had intermarried with the Idumeans who invaded the Land during the days following the Maccabee (the Hammer).

9 hours ago, Moby said:

Even in the days of James there was still twelve distinct tribes noted:

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

Of the DISPERSION (among the Gentile nations), sure! But, I can guarantee you that Ya`aqov ("Jacob" anglicized to "James") didn't know WHO they were that were among the Gentile nations that made up the "twelve tribes!"

9 hours ago, Moby said:

So now that the scriptures have clearly proven the term "Jews" refers to all twelve tribes of Israel, my earlier post stands correct:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people(Jews) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men(Jews), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(of Jews) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he(Israel) obtained not; but the election(a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest(the majority of the Jews)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them(the majority of the Jews):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their(the majority of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their(the majority of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I(Paul) am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them(a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren(believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel(the majority of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles(all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(all the believing Jews and believing Gentiles elected by grace from the foundation of the world) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness(all the unbelieving Jews cut off their olive tree) from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them(Jews), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they(unbelieving Jews) are enemies for your(believing Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they(believing Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye(believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their(unbelieving Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these(unbelieving Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you(believing Gentiles) they(believing Jews) also may now obtain mercy.

NO! This is NOT right! "All Israel" is "all ISRAEL!" "All Israel" will be all the re-united, twelve tribes (families) of Israel!

Romans 11:1-32 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people (the children of Israel)? God forbid! For I (Sha'uwl "Paulos") also am an Israelite (an Israeliy, a child or descendant of Israel), of the seed of Abraham (Avraham), of the tribe of Benjamin (Bin-yamiyn). 2 God hath not cast away his people (the children of Israel) which he foreknew. Wot ye not (Don't you know) what the scripture saith of Elias (Eliyahuw)? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life!" (1 Kings 19:10, 14)

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." (1 Kings 19:18)

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written,

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" unto this day! (Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10)

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." (Psalm 69:22, 23)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid!: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation (deliverance; rescue) is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 

12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (the children of Israel be) the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which (those who) are my flesh (the children of Israel), and might save some of them (the children of Israel). 

15 For if the casting away of them (the children of Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (the children of Israel) be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (RESURRECTION!!!) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy (set apart unto God), the lump is also holy (set apart unto God): and if the root be holy (set apart unto God), so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the (holy) branches (set apart unto God) be broken off, and thou (a believing Gentile), being a wild olive tree (an oleaster tree), wert graffed in AMONG THEM (the holy branches set apart unto God), and WITH THEM (the holy branches set apart unto God) partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE (HOLY) BRANCHES (SET APART UNTO GOD)! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou (you singular) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee (you singular)! 

22 Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN olive tree (the Olive Tree of God's Kingdom of Israel)?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all (twelve tribes of) Israel shall be saved (delivered; rescued): as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (the man Israel's former name): 
27 For this is my covenant unto them (the children of Israel), when I shall take away their sins (the sins of the children of Israel)."
(Isaiah 59:20, 21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33, 34)

28 As concerning the gospel (the good news about the Kingdom), they (the children of Israel) are enemies for your sakes: 
BUT, as touching the election (the chosen ones), they (the children of Israel) are beloved (cherished) for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or on His calling). 30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (the unbelief of the children of Israel): 31 Even so have these also now not believed (the children of Israel), that through your mercy they also (the children of Israel also) may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all (all the children of Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (the children of Israel).

THIS IS WHAT PAUL WAS SAYING HERE!

9 hours ago, Moby said:

Those desiring more scriptural understanding on who "all Israel" is please see this link:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

You're reading too much into this phrase, "all Israel."

[Moby]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Moby.

While the sacrifices were made for all twelve tribes of Israel, that doesn't mean that children of Israel from all twelve tribes returned to the Land after the Jewish Captivity! Both Ezra and Nechemyahuw ("Nehemiah") gave LISTS of people who returned with them to the Land, and ALL of them were from families of the Kingdom of Yhudah (the Southern Kingdom), not from the Kingdom of Israel (the Northern Kingdom)!

This passage is a PROPHETIC passage about the End Times! This SHALL happen when Yeshua` returns and the tribes of Israel are learned from God controlling the lot to disclose the various families among the Gentiles of the earth. Also, these "strangers" are indeed the Gentiles who are grafted into the Kingdom of the Messiah, the Kingdom of God!

Anna was a PROPHETESS (a female prophet) and lived among the Levi'iym (the Levites)! She had SOME Asher blood in her, but she was probably married to a Levite husband! And, as I said, the tribes of the north were not completely deserted from the Land! There were many who were left in the Land but had intermarried with the Idumeans who invaded the Land during the days following the Maccabee (the Hammer).

Of the DISPERSION (among the Gentile nations), sure! But, I can guarantee you that Ya`aqov ("Jacob" anglicized to "James") didn't know WHO they were that were among the Gentile nations that made up the "twelve tribes!"

NO! This is NOT right! "All Israel" is "all ISRAEL!" "All Israel" will be all the re-united, twelve tribes (families) of Israel!

Romans 11:1-32 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people (the children of Israel)? God forbid! For I (Sha'uwl "Paulos") also am an Israelite (an Israeliy, a child or descendant of Israel), of the seed of Abraham (Avraham), of the tribe of Benjamin (Bin-yamiyn). 2 God hath not cast away his people (the children of Israel) which he foreknew. Wot ye not (Don't you know) what the scripture saith of Elias (Eliyahuw)? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life!" (1 Kings 19:10, 14)

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." (1 Kings 19:18)

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written,

"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" unto this day! (Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10)

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." (Psalm 69:22, 23)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid!: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation (deliverance; rescue) is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 

12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (the children of Israel be) the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which (those who) are my flesh (the children of Israel), and might save some of them (the children of Israel). 

15 For if the casting away of them (the children of Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (the children of Israel) be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (RESURRECTION!!!) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy (set apart unto God), the lump is also holy (set apart unto God): and if the root be holy (set apart unto God), so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the (holy) branches (set apart unto God) be broken off, and thou (a believing Gentile), being a wild olive tree (an oleaster tree), wert graffed in AMONG THEM (the holy branches set apart unto God), and WITH THEM (the holy branches set apart unto God) partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE (HOLY) BRANCHES (SET APART UNTO GOD)! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou (you singular) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee (you singular)! 

22 Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleaster tree), and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN olive tree (the Olive Tree of God's Kingdom of Israel)?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all (twelve tribes of) Israel shall be saved (delivered; rescued): as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (the man Israel's former name): 
27 For this is my covenant unto them (the children of Israel), when I shall take away their sins (the sins of the children of Israel)."
(Isaiah 59:20, 21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33, 34)

28 As concerning the gospel (the good news about the Kingdom), they (the children of Israel) are enemies for your sakes: 
BUT, as touching the election (the chosen ones), they (the children of Israel) are beloved (cherished) for the fathers' (the Patriarchs') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or on His calling). 30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (the unbelief of the children of Israel): 31 Even so have these also now not believed (the children of Israel), that through your mercy they also (the children of Israel also) may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all (all the children of Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (the children of Israel).

THIS IS WHAT PAUL WAS SAYING HERE!

You're reading too much into this phrase, "all Israel."

Wow you are one confused brother! Paul would not contradict what he said 2 chapters earlier:

Romans 9:6-8  But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:  (7)  neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  (8)  That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

Please pay attention to what Paul is saying in these passages as the promises have nothing to do with the flesh!:

Galatians 3:26-29  For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.  (28)  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.  (29)  And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It simply amazes me how much you are willing to just ignore what a passage of scripture is clearly saying and just rewrite it in your mind to say what you want it to say so it agree s with your theology:

1 Corinthians 4:6  Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Romans 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

Revelation 22:19  and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Moby

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Moby said:

Wow you are one confused brother! Paul would not contradict what he said 2 chapters earlier:

Romans 9:6-8  But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:  (7)  neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  (8)  That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

Shalom, Moby.

LOL!!! Sorry, bro', but the confusion is still on you. It's not a contradiction when you understand what Paul was saying and about whom he was speaking!

Paul wasn't saying ANYTHING like you are saying! This passage in Romans 9:6-8 is simple once you come to understand to whom the "children of the flesh" refers and to whom the "children of the promise" refers! And, it's not that hard to understand! Let's look at the history BEHIND what Paul was saying:

God had said,

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2 And Abram said,

"Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them": and he said unto him, "So shall thy seed be!" 

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

Then, God cut a covenant with Avram, and promised him the Land in which he sojourned. Then, in chapter 16 we read this:

Genesis 16:1-16 (KJV)

1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram,

"Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her."

And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram,

"My wrong be upon thee (It's all YOUR fault!): I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee."

6 But Abram said unto Sarai,

"Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee."

And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said,

"Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go?"

And she said,

"I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai."

9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands."

10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude."

11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name 'Ishmael'; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, "Thou God seest me": for she said,

"Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"

14 Wherefore the well was called "Beerlahairoi"; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, "Ishmael." 16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old (86 years old), when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Then, we read in the next chapters:

Genesis 17:1-18:15 (KJV)

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,

"I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly."

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called 'Abram,' but thy name shall be 'Abraham'; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

9 And God said unto Abraham,

"Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

15 And God said unto Abraham,

"As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name 'Sarai,' but 'Sarah' shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her."

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart,

Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 

18 And Abraham said unto God,

"O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

19 And God said,

"Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name 'Isaac' (Hebrew: Yitschaq = "Laughter"): and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. 24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine (99 years old), when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen (13) years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said,

"My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant."

And they said,

"So do, as thou hast said."

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said,

"Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth."

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

9 And they said unto him,

"Where is Sarah thy wife?"

And he said,

"Behold, in the tent."

10 And he said,

"I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life (9 months); and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son."

And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women (she had reached menopause). 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying,

After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham,

"Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?' 14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."

15 Then Sarah denied, saying,

"I laughed not";

for she was afraid. And he said,

"Nay; but thou didst laugh."

Then, we read of Yitschaq's birth in Genesis 21 and of the conflict between the two boys and their mothers:

Genesis 21:1-21 (KJV)

1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, "Isaac" (Hebrew: Yitschaq = "Laughter"). 4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. 5 And Abraham was an hundred (100) years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 6 And Sarah said,

"God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me."

7 And she said,

"Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age."

8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham,

"Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham,

"Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said,

"Let me not see the death of the child."

And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her,

"What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."

19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

See, Paul was quoting Genesis 21:12 when he said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called," and there, the contrast was between Ishmael and Isaac and between their mothers, the bondservant Hagar and the wife Sarah. Isaac was "the child of promise"; God promised that Avraham and Sarah would have a son! Ishmael was "the child of the flesh"; Sarah thought that she might HELP Avraham have a son by giving Avraham her handmaid as a concubine! So, when he said, "it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed," the contrast was in these boys' descendants! The children of Ishmael - the Arab nations - are the "children of the flesh" and the children of Isaac - in particular, the children of Israel - are the "children of the promise!"

DON'T PUT WORDS IN PAUL'S MOUTH HE DIDN'T SAY!

Furthermore, Avraham had MANY more sons than just the two, Ishmael and Isaac!

Through a second concubine, Keturah, ...

1 Chronicles 1:32 (KJV)

32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan. 33 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah.

So, there were six sons more, and grandsons from them, who ALL became other nations! However, ONLY "in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

8 hours ago, Moby said:

Please pay attention to what Paul is saying in these passages as the promises have nothing to do with the flesh!:

Really?! You just DON'T know what you're talking about!

The "flesh" is not bad. You absolutely MUST read the Appendix A of Randy Alcorn's book Heaven entitled "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions."

Alcorn wrote,

Quote

 

It's no coincidence that Paul wrote his detailed defense of physical resurrection to the Corinthians, who were immersed in the Greek philosophy of dualism. They'd been taught that the spiritual was incompatible with the physical. But Christ, in his incarnation and resurrection, laid claim not only to the spiritual realm but to the physical as well. His redemption wasn't only of spirits but also of bodies and the earth.

Plato was "the first Western philosopher to claim that reality is fundamentally something ideal or abstract." To think of the spiritual realm in physical terms or to envision God's presence in the physical world was to do it a disservice. Plato considered the body a liability, not an asset. "For Plato ... the body is a hindrance, as it opposes and even imprisons the soul (Phaedo 65-68, 91-94)."

But according to Scripture, our bodies aren't just shells for our spirits to inhabit; they're a good and essential aspect of our being. Likewise, the earth is not a second-rate location from which we must be delivered. Rather, it was hand-made by God for us. Earth, not some incorporeal state, is God's choice as mankind's original and ultimate dwelling place.

 

It would be wise for EVERYONE reading this to go read the whole Appendix A in Alcorn's book Heaven (Tyndale House Publishers, Inc, (c) 2004 by Eternal Perspective Ministries)! See www.tyndale.com for more information. It couldn't hurt to read the rest of his book, too!

8 hours ago, Moby said:

Galatians 3:26-29  For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.  (28)  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.  (29)  And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

This is only true WITHIN the Messiah, WITHIN the Christ! Outside of the Messiah, there are still the differences of Jew and Greek, bond and free, and male and female. It's a HIERARCHY here that Paul is talking about to the Galatians:

I. Abraham
I.A. Isaac
I.A.1. Israel
I.A.1.d. Judah (one of the twelve tribes of Israel)
I.A.1.d...(i) David (of the tribe of Judah)
I.A.1.d...(i)...(A) the Messiah Yeshua` (the Son of David)
I.A.1.d...(i)...(A)...(1) YOU (in the Messiah)!

One only partakes of the Kingdom of God through all of this hierarchy!

8 hours ago, Moby said:

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again, the word "Jew" here refers to a member of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, or rather, Yhudah, Helenized in the Bible to "Judea."

8 hours ago, Moby said:

It simply amazes me how much you are willing to just ignore what a passage of scripture is clearly saying and just rewrite it in your mind to say what you want it to say so it agree s with your theology:

That's funny! I was just about to say the same thing about you!

8 hours ago, Moby said:

1 Corinthians 4:6  Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Romans 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

Revelation 22:19  and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

What? Now you're just going to quote three "dire warnings" that don't apply in the slightest to what we've been discussing? LEARN THE JEWISH ROOTS OF YOUR FAITH!

[Moby]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Moby.

LOL!!! Sorry, bro', but the confusion is still on you. It's not a contradiction when you understand what Paul was saying and about whom he was speaking!

Paul wasn't saying ANYTHING like you are saying! This passage in Romans 9:6-8 is simple once you come to understand to whom the "children of the flesh" refers and to whom the "children of the promise" refers! And, it's not that hard to understand! Let's look at the history BEHIND what Paul was saying:

God had said,

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2 And Abram said,

"Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them": and he said unto him, "So shall thy seed be!" 

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

Then, God cut a covenant with Avram, and promised him the Land in which he sojourned. Then, in chapter 16 we read this:

Genesis 16:1-16 (KJV)

1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram,

"Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her."

And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram,

"My wrong be upon thee (It's all YOUR fault!): I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee."

6 But Abram said unto Sarai,

"Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee."

And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said,

"Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go?"

And she said,

"I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai."

9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands."

10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude."

11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,

"Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name 'Ishmael'; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, "Thou God seest me": for she said,

"Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"

14 Wherefore the well was called "Beerlahairoi"; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, "Ishmael." 16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old (86 years old), when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Then, we read in the next chapters:

Genesis 17:1-18:15 (KJV)

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,

"I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly."

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called 'Abram,' but thy name shall be 'Abraham'; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

9 And God said unto Abraham,

"Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

15 And God said unto Abraham,

"As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name 'Sarai,' but 'Sarah' shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her."

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart,

Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 

18 And Abraham said unto God,

"O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

19 And God said,

"Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name 'Isaac' (Hebrew: Yitschaq = "Laughter"): and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. 24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine (99 years old), when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen (13) years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said,

"My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant."

And they said,

"So do, as thou hast said."

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said,

"Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth."

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

9 And they said unto him,

"Where is Sarah thy wife?"

And he said,

"Behold, in the tent."

10 And he said,

"I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life (9 months); and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son."

And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women (she had reached menopause). 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying,

After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham,

"Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?' 14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."

15 Then Sarah denied, saying,

"I laughed not";

for she was afraid. And he said,

"Nay; but thou didst laugh."

Then, we read of Yitschaq's birth in Genesis 21 and of the conflict between the two boys and their mothers:

Genesis 21:1-21 (KJV)

1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, "Isaac" (Hebrew: Yitschaq = "Laughter"). 4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. 5 And Abraham was an hundred (100) years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 6 And Sarah said,

"God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me."

7 And she said,

"Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age."

8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham,

"Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham,

"Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said,

"Let me not see the death of the child."

And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her,

"What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."

19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

See, Paul was quoting Genesis 21:12 when he said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called," and there, the contrast was between Ishmael and Isaac and between their mothers, the bondservant Hagar and the wife Sarah. Isaac was "the child of promise"; God promised that Avraham and Sarah would have a son! Ishmael was "the child of the flesh"; Sarah thought that she might HELP Avraham have a son by giving Avraham her handmaid as a concubine! So, when he said, "it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed," the contrast was in these boys' descendants! The children of Ishmael - the Arab nations - are the "children of the flesh" and the children of Isaac - in particular, the children of Israel - are the "children of the promise!"

DON'T PUT WORDS IN PAUL'S MOUTH HE DIDN'T SAY!

Furthermore, Avraham had MANY more sons than just the two, Ishmael and Isaac!

Through a second concubine, Keturah, ...

1 Chronicles 1:32 (KJV)

32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan. 33 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah.

So, there were six sons more, and grandsons from them, who ALL became other nations! However, ONLY "in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Really?! You just DON'T know what you're talking about!

The "flesh" is not bad. You absolutely MUST read the Appendix A of Randy Alcorn's book Heaven entitled "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions."

Alcorn wrote,

It would be wise for EVERYONE reading this to go read the whole Appendix A in Alcorn's book Heaven (Tyndale House Publishers, Inc, (c) 2004 by Eternal Perspective Ministries)! See www.tyndale.com for more information. It couldn't hurt to read the rest of his book, too!

This is only true WITHIN the Messiah, WITHIN the Christ! Outside of the Messiah, there are still the differences of Jew and Greek, bond and free, and male and female. It's a HIERARCHY here that Paul is talking about to the Galatians:

I. Abraham
I.A. Isaac
I.A.1. Israel
I.A.1.d. Judah (one of the twelve tribes of Israel)
I.A.1.d...(i) David (of the tribe of Judah)
I.A.1.d...(i)...(A) the Messiah Yeshua` (the Son of David)
I.A.1.d...(i)...(A)...(1) YOU (in the Messiah)!

One only partakes of the Kingdom of God through all of this hierarchy!

Again, the word "Jew" here refers to a member of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, or rather, Yhudah, Helenized in the Bible to "Judea."

That's funny! I was just about to say the same thing about you!

What? Now you're just going to quote three "dire warnings" that don't apply in the slightest to what we've been discussing? LEARN THE JEWISH ROOTS OF YOUR FAITH!

Sorry bro but I do not need to read anyone's "appendix" when I have our Father's Word to consult for all answers! Father hates our flesh as He has proven since the beginning of His book and Paul clearly pointed out several times:

Genesis 6:3  And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

Galatians 5:16-17  But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  (17)  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.

Romans 8:3-14  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:  (4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:  (8)  and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  (9)  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  (10)  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.  (12)  So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:  (13)  for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  (14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

I am well aware of the promised seed through Isaac and then Jacob as Paul furthers the truth about how the seed of promise comes through His mercy, compassion, and election:

Romans 9:9-16  For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.  (10)  And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--  (11)  for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,  (12)  it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.  (13)  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.  (14)  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  (15)  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.  (16)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

This promised seed from Adam through Seth through Noah through Shem through Abraham through Isaac through Jacob through Judah through David through Jesus was promised from the beginning:

Genesis 3:14-15  And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:  (15)  and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And proven through Luke chapter 3:

Luke 3:23-38  And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,  (24)  the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,  (25)  the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,  (26)  the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda,  (27)  the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,  (28)  the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,  (29)  the son of Jesus, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,  (30)  the son of Symeon, the son of Judas, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,  (31)  the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,  (32)  the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,  (33)  the son of Amminadab, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,  (34)  the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,  (35)  the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,  (36)  the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,  (37)  the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan,  (38)  the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

This is the only hierarchy through which one enters the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I have already given you enough witnesses in the scriptures that prove that the term Jew began as a description of the southern Kingdom of Judah but over the course of time became a universal name for all the children of Israel that I will again paste here:

The northern ten tribes were swallowed up by Assyria. The Assyrian records show only a little over 27,000 Hebrews were taken into that captivity but most of the northern Jews were left in their land. The theology of “ten lost tribes” is false. Then Assyria was swallowed up by Babylon. In a series of three invasions, the Babylonians came against the whole land of Israel and finally the stronghold of Jerusalem. Nearly 70,000 Jews were taken to Babylon during these campaigns which included some of the northern kingdom who had remained in Canaan as well as some from Jerusalem. Then Medo~Persia swallowed up Babylon. Cyrus was moved by God to send the Jews who wanted to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple:

Ezra 1:1-3  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,  (2)  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, the God of heaven, given me; and he hath charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.  (3)  Whosoever there is among you of all his people, his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of Jehovah, the God of Israel (he is God), which is in Jerusalem.

This clearly included souls from all twelve tribes as Ezra records:

Ezra 6:17  And they offered at the dedication of this house of God a hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin-offering for all Israel, twelve he-goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Ezekiel prophesies the tribes of Israel which includes Gentile strangers who are grafted in among them as ONE olive tree:

Ezekiel 47:21-23  So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.  (22)  And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you and to the strangers that sojourn among you, who shall beget children among you; and they shall be unto you as the home-born among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.  (23)  And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord Jehovah.

The northern tribe of Asher was recognized in the days of the birth of Christ:

Luke 2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity,

Even in the days of James there was still twelve distinct tribes noted:

James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

But your custom is to go beyond what is clearly written and explain the obvious away in an attempt to prove your thesis:

1 Corinthians 4:6  Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

Oh these passages have everything to do with proper teaching of our Father's prophesies:

Romans 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

Revelation 22:19  and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

1 Peter 4:11  if any man speaketh, speaking as it were oracles of God; if any man ministereth, ministering as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, whose is the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[WilliamL]

On 9/17/2020 at 7:42 PM, Moby said:

...if the Jews were the lost sheep of the house of Israel it should be abundantly clear they were the natural branch that were the first to make up the ONE olive tree!

Response: All abundantly clear to you, maybe, if that is what you want to believe. But some unproven presumption to me. A branch is not a tree, it is only part of a tree; and it does not make up any part of the roots at all, nor the seed from which all of the tree derived: 11:1 For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham...

The only reason why I added the words in parenthesis was to make it easier to follow. Please by all means show me with scripture where I added error!:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  ...(16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).

 

Response: The firstfruit of faith, and the root of all those of faith thereafter, was Abraham, not Jesus:

Gal. 3:6 ...Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

All those of faith, both Jew and Gentile, are part of the Abrahamic olive tree of faith. It is not, nor ever has been, an exclusively Jewish tree. Abraham was neither a Jew nor an Israelite.

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Moby said:

Sorry bro but I do not need to read anyone's "appendix" when I have our Father's Word to consult for all answers! Father hates our flesh as He has proven since the beginning of His book and Paul clearly pointed out several times:

Genesis 6:3  And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

Shalom, Moby.

Wow. You are SO BLINDED by this "hatred of the flesh" that you can't see the obvious! If "Father hates our flesh" so badly, as you say, then why did He create it in the first place?! THINK ABOUT IT!!! And, why, after He had so created it, did He pronounce the whole of Creation, including the flesh, "VERY GOOD?" 

Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

A wise pastor and friend of mine, Steve Dean, once gave this outline of the Bible:

I. What Ought To Be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What Is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from What Is to What Ought To Be - Genesis 4 through Revelation 22

Simplistic, perhaps, but it fits! Simply compare the original Creation to the New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22, and you will find MANY similarities between the two states of being! We don't "go to Heaven" somewhere ethereal and sublime; we go to the New Earth, its New Sky, and its capital city, the New Jerusalem! THAT'S what we have to look forward to, according to God's Word! Those "pearly gates" and "golden streets" and "the tree of life" aren't found in "Heaven"; they're found in the New Jerusalem, a very literal, a very PHYSICAL city! You will WANT your body to be resurrected to enjoy that city!

Yeshua` said,

Luke 24:39 (KJV)

39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

People get distracted by Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

But Paul wasn't saying that we had to be OTHER than "flesh and blood" but STRONGER than mere "flesh and blood!" Just look at the verses that precede this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up?"

and

"with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

The first man - "Adam - was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This passage of Scripture is FULL of contrasts and one would be wise to look up these words in the Greek to get a better feel for those contrasts.

I can't go into it all tonight, but suffice it to say that the Hebrew word translated as "soul" is "nefesh," and it comes from the root word "naafash" which means "to breathe." "Nefesh" means "an air-breathing creature." ("Creature" meaning a "created being"; not a "monster," as in the movies.)

So, when God created the Man, haa'Aadaam, ("the Red [man]," and from which we get his name), He performed this deed:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That's "man became a living, air-breathing creature." It's really that simple. We truly don't exist without a body. We each ARE a body! THAT'S why the Resurrection is so important! If one will CAREFULLY look up each of the Greek words for the contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15:35-49, one will find that Paul is not talking about some "ethereal" body but about a REAL, TANGIBLE, SUPERHUMAN body!

Also, it doesn't hurt to know that "glory," translated from the Greek word "doxa," means "BRIGHTNESS!" Thus, it was used for the "sun," "moon," and "stars" as well as for "bodies terrestrial." We DO give off a radiance in our human bodies, but it is in the form of heat or infrared radiation. That's NOT how we'll be in the Resurrection:

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV)

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (the sky); and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)

 41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

We shall be as HIS glorious body!

Revelation 1:12-18 (KJV)

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and hishairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned (sparkled) in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

That's all I have time for tonight.

 

[Moby]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Moby.

Wow. You are SO BLINDED by this "hatred of the flesh" that you can't see the obvious! If "Father hates our flesh" so badly, as you say, then why did He create it in the first place?! THINK ABOUT IT!!! And, why, after He had so created it, did He pronounce the whole of Creation, including the flesh, "VERY GOOD?" 

Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

A wise pastor and friend of mine, Steve Dean, once gave this outline of the Bible:

I. What Ought To Be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What Is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from What Is to What Ought To Be - Genesis 4 through Revelation 22

Simplistic, perhaps, but it fits! Simply compare the original Creation to the New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22, and you will find MANY similarities between the two states of being! We don't "go to Heaven" somewhere ethereal and sublime; we go to the New Earth, its New Sky, and its capital city, the New Jerusalem! THAT'S what we have to look forward to, according to God's Word! Those "pearly gates" and "golden streets" and "the tree of life" aren't found in "Heaven"; they're found in the New Jerusalem, a very literal, a very PHYSICAL city! You will WANT your body to be resurrected to enjoy that city!

Yeshua` said,

Luke 24:39 (KJV)

39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

People get distracted by Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

But Paul wasn't saying that we had to be OTHER than "flesh and blood" but STRONGER than mere "flesh and blood!" Just look at the verses that precede this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up?"

and

"with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

The first man - "Adam - was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This passage of Scripture is FULL of contrasts and one would be wise to look up these words in the Greek to get a better feel for those contrasts.

I can't go into it all tonight, but suffice it to say that the Hebrew word translated as "soul" is "nefesh," and it comes from the root word "naafash" which means "to breathe." "Nefesh" means "an air-breathing creature." ("Creature" meaning a "created being"; not a "monster," as in the movies.)

So, when God created the Man, haa'Aadaam, ("the Red [man]," and from which we get his name), He performed this deed:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That's "man became a living, air-breathing creature." It's really that simple. We truly don't exist without a body. We each ARE a body! THAT'S why the Resurrection is so important! If one will CAREFULLY look up each of the Greek words for the contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15:35-49, one will find that Paul is not talking about some "ethereal" body but about a REAL, TANGIBLE, SUPERHUMAN body!

Also, it doesn't hurt to know that "glory," translated from the Greek word "doxa," means "BRIGHTNESS!" Thus, it was used for the "sun," "moon," and "stars" as well as for "bodies terrestrial." We DO give off a radiance in our human bodies, but it is in the form of heat or infrared radiation. That's NOT how we'll be in the Resurrection:

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV)

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (the sky); and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)

 41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

We shall be as HIS glorious body!

Revelation 1:12-18 (KJV)

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and hishairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned (sparkled) in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

That's all I have time for tonight.

 

Yes I understand that our Father made flesh and it was good but you know the verses I posted are talking about the fallen state of man and the corruption of the flesh to the point our Father destroyed all flesh but a few select that He preserved on the ark:

Genesis 6:11-13  And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.  (12)  And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.  (13)  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God actually loves the smell of burning flesh:

Leviticus 1:9  but its inwards and its legs shall he wash with water: and the priest shall burn the whole on the altar, for a burnt-offering, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto Jehovah.

Even though you seem to enjoy rearranging what Paul said to fit your narrative, he was quite clear about how much He hates the mind given to the flesh rather than the mind given to the Spirit:

Romans 8:3-14  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:  (4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:  (8)  and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  (9)  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  (10)  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.  (12)  So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:  (13)  for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  (14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 

Those Christians who live in the mind of flesh are headed to perdition:

Philippians 3:17-19  Brethren, be ye imitators together of me, and mark them that so walk even as ye have us for an ensample.  (18)  For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:  (19)  whose end is perdition, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Those Christians who live in the mind of the Spirit will be led into holiness:

Romans 8:26-28  And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;  (27)  and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.  (28)  And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

Paul understood the need to put to death the deeds of the body in order to not be rejected by God so much so that he daily spiritually beat his flesh into submission:

1 Corinthians 9:26-27  I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:  (27)  but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

When Jesus said "it is finished" He was clearly proving the death of the corruptible flesh is the ultimate goal of all Christians:

Hebrews 5:7-9  Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,  (8)  though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;  (9)  and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

Hebrews 12:4-6  Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:  (5)  and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;  (6)  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The disciple of Christ is learning to lose our life for the life of Jesus as His most repeated precept in the gospels command:

Matthew 10:38-39 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. (39) He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:34-35 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (35) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s shall save it.

Luke 9:23-24 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (24) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Those who are led and walk in the Spirit will receive the incorruptible flesh as Jesus did for this is the will of our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:51-58  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,  (52)  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  (54)  But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  (55)  O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?  (56)  The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:  (57)  but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  (58)  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

[Moby]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Response: All abundantly clear to you, maybe, if that is what you want to believe. But some unproven presumption to me. A branch is not a tree, it is only part of a tree; and it does not make up any part of the roots at all, nor the seed from which all of the tree derived: 11:1 For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham...

Response: The firstfruit of faith, and the root of all those of faith thereafter, was Abraham, not Jesus:

Gal. 3:6 ...Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

All those of faith, both Jew and Gentile, are part of the Abrahamic olive tree of faith. It is not, nor ever has been, an exclusively Jewish tree. Abraham was neither a Jew nor an Israelite.

Yes I know scientifically the branches are not the whole tree but since when does a parable have to meet all the scientific data such as this parable where Jesus calls Himself the vines and us the branches:

John 15:1-2  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.  (2)  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Paul being moved of the Spirit was simply equating that the natural branches are individual Jews who with the wild olive branches grafted in make up the ONE whole tree called all Israel:

Romans 11:1-32  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I(Paul) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people(Jews) which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men(Jews), who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(of Jews) according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he(Israel) obtained not; but the election(a chosen remnant of Jews) obtained it, and the rest(the majority of the Jews)  were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.  (9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them(the majority of the Jews):  (10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.  (11)  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their(the majority of the Jews) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their(the majority of the Jews) fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I(Paul) am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them(a chosen remnant of Jews).  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  (16)  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(Israel): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(individual believing Jews).  (17)  But if some of the branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them(believing Jews), and didst become partaker with them(believing Jews) of the root(Jesus) of the fatness of the olive tree(Israel);  (18)  glory not over the branches(believing Jews): but if thou(believing Gentiles) gloriest, it is not thou(believing Gentiles) that bearest the root(Jesus), but the root thee(believing Gentiles).  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren(believing Jews and believing Gentiles), have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel(the majority of the Jews), until the fulness of the Gentiles(all the believing Gentiles) be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(all the believing Jews and believing Gentiles elected by grace from the foundation of the world) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness(all the unbelieving Jews cut off their olive tree) from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them(Jews), When I shall take away their sins.  (28)  As touching the gospel, they(unbelieving Jews) are enemies for your(believing Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election, they(believing Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye(believing Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their(unbelieving Jews) disobedience,  (31)  even so have these(unbelieving Jews) also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you(believing Gentiles) they(believing Jews) also may now obtain mercy.

No where in scripture do we find Abraham being declared a root but we see Jesus is declared the root several places:

Isaiah 11:10  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious.

Romans 15:12  And again, Isaiah saith, There shall be the root of Jesse, And he that ariseth to rule over the Gentiles; On him shall the Gentiles hope.

Revelation 5:5  and one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not; behold, the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath overcome to open the book and the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.

Yes I agree it was never an exclusive Jewish tree as the symbology was to prove that even though one was born out Abraham's promised seed one could still be cut off for unbelief:

Romans 11:19-24  Thou wilt say then, Branches(unbelieving Jews) were broken off, that I(believing Gentiles) might be grafted in.  (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches(Jews), neither will he spare thee(Gentiles).  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them(unbelieving Jews) that fell, severity; but toward thee(believing Gentiles), God's goodness, if thou(believing Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou(believing Gentiles that fall) also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they(unbelieving Jews) continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them(believing Jews) in again.  (24)  For if thou(believing Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these(Jews), which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Moby said:

Yes I understand that our Father made flesh and it was good but you know the verses I posted are talking about the fallen state of man and the corruption of the flesh to the point our Father destroyed all flesh but a few select that He preserved on the ark:

Genesis 6:11-13  And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.  (12)  And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.  (13)  And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God actually loves the smell of burning flesh:

Leviticus 1:9  but its inwards and its legs shall he wash with water: and the priest shall burn the whole on the altar, for a burnt-offering, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto Jehovah.

Even though you seem to enjoy rearranging what Paul said to fit your narrative, he was quite clear about how much He hates the mind given to the flesh rather than the mind given to the Spirit:

Romans 8:3-14  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:  (4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:  (8)  and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  (9)  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  (10)  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.  (12)  So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:  (13)  for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  (14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 

Those Christians who live in the mind of flesh are headed to perdition:

Philippians 3:17-19  Brethren, be ye imitators together of me, and mark them that so walk even as ye have us for an ensample.  (18)  For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:  (19)  whose end is perdition, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Those Christians who live in the mind of the Spirit will be led into holiness:

Romans 8:26-28  And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;  (27)  and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.  (28)  And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

Paul understood the need to put to death the deeds of the body in order to not be rejected by God so much so that he daily spiritually beat his flesh into submission:

1 Corinthians 9:26-27  I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:  (27)  but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

When Jesus said "it is finished" He was clearly proving the death of the corruptible flesh is the ultimate goal of all Christians:

Hebrews 5:7-9  Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,  (8)  though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;  (9)  and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

Hebrews 12:4-6  Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:  (5)  and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;  (6)  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The disciple of Christ is learning to lose our life for the life of Jesus as His most repeated precept in the gospels command:

Matthew 10:38-39 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. (39) He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:34-35 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (35) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s shall save it.

Luke 9:23-24 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (24) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Those who are led and walk in the Spirit will receive the incorruptible flesh as Jesus did for this is the will of our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:51-58  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,  (52)  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  (54)  But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  (55)  O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?  (56)  The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:  (57)  but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  (58)  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

Shalom, Moby.

I'm just going to say it:  You're pulling these Scriptures from all over the Bible and ASSUMING that they are all talking about the same things. (They're not.) However, there's just too much to correct, because YOU'RE HELTER-SKELTER ALL OVER THE PLACE!

Your beliefs of these passages must also fit with what I've shown you from the VERY SAME SCRIPTURES! Thus, WHATEVER you accept about these passages of Scripture, they MUST ALSO HARMONIZE TOGETHER with what I've shown you.

I'm just too tired to pursue it any longer. Just know that the whole business about the children of Israel and Jews, too, (which are a SUBSET of the children of Israel) are all about FAMILY! Specifically, they are all YESHUA`S family! If you don't like it, too bad. That's the way it is.

And, regarding the flesh and all of Creation, for that matter, just know this: God will not lose a single iota to sin, death, or the devil! He WINS!

Edited September 23, 2020 by Retrobyter