Jew and Gentile believers are "all Israel"!

[Moby]

8 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Not to me, in the greek this is a future tense: γράψω. You want to change: "whose names are not written in the book of life" to "were not written".  They are either there or they are not there. There are 7 scriptures from Moses, Jesus & David that tell us names are blotted out of the book of life. David even seems to be vindictive when he says: "Add iniquity to their iniquity; let them not share in Your righteousness.  May they be blotted out of the Book of Life and not listed with the righteous." (Psalm 69 27,28) Do you think people were righteous at one time so that their name was written in and then God changed His mind and blotted them out?  If their name was not there from the beginning when was it added? If there name was not there then why are we told that there name was written in at the foundation of the world. 

We are told: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Ephesians 1:4) This would indicate to me the faith God has in us to choose us from the foundation to be blameless. But when people are found NOT to be worthy then they are removed from the book of life. Their name is blotted out.  After God created man we are told that "it was very good". "God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good". (Genesis 1:30)

"Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself."(Hebrews 9:25,26)

"He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:27) Jesus was sacrificed once for all. Yet clearly not all are saved. 

Sorry bro but the translators  obviously translated "grapho" as "written" because they knew if was past tense as the usage implies:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1125&t=KJV

This passage from the KJV clearly says there are names that "were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world":

KJV ~ Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The ASV in Revelation 13:8 agrees with Revelation 17:8:

ASV ~ Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

ASV ~ Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Father clearly declared the end from the beginning which includes who will go in His kingdom:

Isaiah 46:9-10  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;  (10)  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

[Moby]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Both Jewish and gentile believers in Christ are one in Christ, thus the Bride of Christ. We have a heavenly inheritance.

The descendants of Jacob have an earthly inheritance which is the Land.

The tree is Christ and not Israel. They were removed because of unbelief. But they are promised to be regrafted in. Us gentile believers in Christ have been grafted in Christ spite our wild behavior.

When Israel sees the one who they have pierced and then believe in their Messiah, then and there will they be grafted in.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Sorry bro but there are more than just the bride as the scriptures indicate:

Bride~~~~~~~~~~~~100fold~~~~~~~gold~~~~~~~~~~sun glory

 

Virgins~~~~~~~~~~~60fold~~~~~~~~silver~~~~~~~~moon glory

 

Wedding guests~~~30fold~~~~precious stones~~~~star glory

 

The tree is "all Israel" as Paul describes the finished product he called the good olive tree but the Gentiles were cut out of the wild olive tree::

Romans 11:17-18 & 24-26 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree(Jesus);  (18)  glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.....(24)  For if thou(believing Gentile) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these, which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(ONE olive tree full of believing Jews and believing Gentiles) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob(Jesus):

Edited September 14, 2020 by Moby

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Moby said:

Sorry bro but there are more than just the bride as the scriptures indicate:

Bride~~~~~~~~~~~~100fold~~~~~~~gold~~~~~~~~~~sun glory

 

Virgins~~~~~~~~~~~60fold~~~~~~~~silver~~~~~~~~moon glory

 

Wedding guests~~~30fold~~~~precious stones~~~~star glory

 

The tree is "all Israel" as Paul describes the finished product he called the good olive tree but the Gentiles were cut out of the wild olive tree::

Romans 11:17-18 & 24-26 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree(Jesus);  (18)  glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.....(24)  For if thou(believing Gentile) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree(all Gentiles), and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(Israel); how much more shall these, which are the natural branches(Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree(Israel)?  (25)  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel(ONE olive tree full of believing Jews and believing Gentiles) shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob(Jesus):

You sound a lot like British Imperialism. Which is proven wrong.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Moby]

1 minute ago, Montana Marv said:

You sound a lot like British Imperialism. Which is proven wrong.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Your labels mean absolutely nothing to me!:

https://sumofthyword.com/

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, Moby said:

Sorry bro but the translators  obviously translated "grapho" as "written" because they knew if was past tense as the usage implies:

That is the whole point - every name is written from the foundation of the world. You are the one that denies that. There are 7 scriptures that talk about blotting names out. There are no scriptures that talks about actually writing a name into the book of life. David says "all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be".  Before we are born, even at conception God has already written the book of our life. (Psalm 139:16)

[Moby]

15 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

That is the whole point - every name is written from the foundation of the world. You are the one that denies that. There are 7 scriptures that talk about blotting names out. There are no scriptures that talks about actually writing a name into the book of life. David says "all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be".  Before we are born, even at conception God has already written the book of our life. (Psalm 139:16)

Your complete ignoring what these two passages are clearly saying:

ASV ~ Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

ASV ~ Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Those passages clearly say there are names that "were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world":

Father clearly declared the end from the beginning which includes who will go in His kingdom:

Isaiah 46:9-10  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;  (10)  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

You are trying very hard to go beyond what is clearly written in Father's Word:

1 Corinthians 4:6  Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Your complete ignoring what these two passages are clearly saying:

I have not ignored them at all. That is what this whole discussion is about. Clearly the people we are talking about --- their names are NOT in the Lambs book of life. YOU say their name is not there because it was never there. I say their name is NOT in the Lambs Book of Life because it was blotted out. Your interpretation defends hypercalvinism and my interpretation defends Wesley's Holiness teachings.  As I said both Calvin & Wesley agree on the depravity of unregenerate man. Only Calvinism denies that we are born again and a new creation in Christ. Wesley teaches holiness and sanctification and that we can live right before God. We are told that Jesus is coming for a Bride that is without spot blemish or wrinkle. (Ephesians 5:27) Perhaps this is why people say you can not be a calvinist and believe in a pre trib rapture.  I will be 77 years old when the church age comes to an end. So I personally do not plan to go through a tribulation period, if there is a trib at that time. 

I would rather put faith in the Holiness of God and not the depravity of man. People can say: But God you made me this way. He is going to say He gave His Son to die for us so that we could be made Holy and so we can become a new Creation in Christ. We can put on the Mind of Christ. Is there any difference between depravity and the reprobate mind of infidels? 

 

[Moby]

8 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

I have not ignored them at all. That is what this whole discussion is about. Clearly the people we are talking about --- their names are NOT in the Lambs book of life. YOU say their name is not there because it was never there. I say their name is NOT in the Lambs Book of Life because it was blotted out. Your interpretation defends hypercalvinism and my interpretation defends Wesley's Holiness teachings.  As I said both Calvin & Wesley agree on the depravity of unregenerate man. Only Calvinism denies that we are born again and a new creation in Christ. Wesley teaches holiness and sanctification and that we can live right before God. We are told that Jesus is coming for a Bride that is without spot blemish or wrinkle. (Ephesians 5:27) Perhaps this is why people say you can not be a calvinist and believe in a pre trib rapture.  I will be 77 years old when the church age comes to an end. So I personally do not plan to go through a tribulation period, if there is a trib at that time. 

I would rather put faith in the Holiness of God and not the depravity of man. People can say: But God you made me this way. He is going to say He gave His Son to die for us so that we could be made Holy and so we can become a new Creation in Christ. We can put on the Mind of Christ. Is there any difference between depravity and the reprobate mind of infidels? 

 

I take no pleasure in titles as I belong to neither of these camps: hypercalvinism or Wesley's Holiness

I accept our Father's Word exactly as it is written and this passage whether from the KJV or the ASV clearly says there are some "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" which exactly what it says period!:

KJV ~ Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

ASV ~ Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

 

It should be very clear to anyone who has studied the OT that every nation except the nation of Israel was never written in the book of life as Paul proves in Romans chapter 9:

Romans 9:13-24  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.  (14)  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  (15)  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.  (16)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.  (17)  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.  (18)  So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.  (19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?  (20)  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?  (21)  Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?  (22)  What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:  (23)  and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,  (24)  even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

[JohnR7]

25 minutes ago, Moby said:

It should be very clear to anyone who has studied the OT that every nation except the nation of Israel was never written in the book of life as Paul proves in Romans chapter 9:

Romans 9:13-24  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Ok so you admit then that Israel was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/13/2020 at 10:16 AM, JohnR7 said:

God is not willing that any should perish. He has provided for ALL to be saved, but people still have choice to decide for themselves. We can choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health. The choices in life are ours. We need to choose life so we can live. 

This is true......but that isn't Paul's point here. Hes only quoting Isaiah, that ALL Israel will be saved. People look at this wrong, just like God blinded Israel IN PART, (meaning as a Nation, not as Individuals, see Paul, Peter and today's Messianic Jews). The ALL Israel is referring to Israel as a Nation, not each Individual Jew. We know via Zechariah 13:8-9 that 1/3 of the Jews REPENT before the DOTL and that 2/3 refuse to REPENT and will thus perish. BUT........Since Paul is referring to Israel as a Nation, ALL Israel will indeed be saved because Abraham's SEED (God promised Abraham a continual seed) is preserved by the 1/3 of Jews who repent/atone/come to Christ Jesus and then flee Judea as Matt. 24:15-17 says they will do. 

So ALL Israel, simply refers to Israel being preserved into the New Millennium  where Jesus will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years. God never blinded individual Jews, he just rejected Israel as a vessel for taking the Gospel unto the world, because they would have allowed their Judaism to swallow up the Christian Faith. So God accursed Israel for nigh 2000 years (Dead Men's Bones) and then Breathed LIFE back into those bones in 1948. Paul is simply telling the Romans, LOOK..........Israel is going nowhere, they will for a time be rejected by God and you will have the Mantle they once had, but God will graft them back in in His own due time.

On 9/13/2020 at 10:23 AM, JohnR7 said:

Many are called and few are chosen has to do with Holiness and Sanctification. This has to do with our wedding garment being washed and cleansed in the Precious Blood of the Lamb. 

God CALLS every man. Jesus died for every man. But most will simply just not heed that call. Of course Satan makes it difficult for some to hear. Hes always battling.