Sheep, Wolves and Shepherds

[Who me]

5 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Well this battle is not with ...oh man the song playing "Theres nothing that our God cant' do".. so this battle is not with man.

The key word left out is "PRAYER". How can one go unless he is sent?

 

May I suggest you reread the bible and the biography of noted missionaries and preachers.

 

There is a common theme in all there lives.

 

They are trained, equipped, ready to serve before they get sent.

Oh they still have lots to learn.

 

God is very gracious he doesn't send untrained,unfit raw recruits into battle.

 

So the key word isn't prayer but Christian growth in maturity.

[David1701]

17 hours ago, steve morrow said:

CONTENDING  FOR  THE  FAITH 

2 CORINTHIANS 12:9  and  HE  said unto me  MY  grace is --sufficient-- for thee for  MY  strength is made perfect in weakness most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of  CHRIST  may rest upon me 

TITUS 2:11  for the grace of  GOD  that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men  --2:12-- teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 4:2  moreover it is --required-- in stewards that a man be found faithful 

PSALM 31:23  O  LOVE  THE  LORD  all you  HIS  saints for  THE  LORD  preserveth the faithful and plentifully rewardeth --THE  PROUD  DOER--

PSALM 119:138  thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful 

PSALM 119:86  --ALL-- thy commandments are faithful they persecute me wrongfully help thou me 

PROVERBS 14:5  a faithful witness will not lie but a false witness will utter lies 

 

JOHN 7:17  if any man will do  HIS  will he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of  GOD  or whether I speak of myself 

--7:18-- he that speaketh of himself -- seeketh his --OWN  GLORY-- but he that seeketh  HIS  glory that sent him the same is true and no unrighteousness is in him

PROVERBS 8:8  all the words of  MY  MOUTH  are in righteousness there is nothing froward or perverse in them 

 

PSALM 60:11  give us help from trouble for vain is the help of man 

PSALM 146:3  put not your trust in princes nor in the son of man in whom there is no help 

2 CORINTHIANS 10:15  not boasting of things without our measure that is of other mens labors but having hope --when your faith is increased-- that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly   --10:16-- to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you and --not to boast-- in another mans line of things made ready to our hand 

10:17  BUT  HE  THAT  GLORIETH  LET  HIM  GLORY  IN  THE  LORD  

 

1 TIMOTHY 4:6  if thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things thou shalt be a good minister of  JESUS  CHRIST  nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine whereunto thou hast attained 

 

1 PETER 4:11  if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of  GOD  if any man minister let him do it as the ability which  GOD  giveth that  GOD  in all things may be glorified through  JESUS  CHRIST  to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever   AMEN

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

These are all good Scriptures; but I have the feeling that you've missed the point, which was not to glorify the ones fighting off the wolves, but to encourage the rest to join in.  Yes, of course it has to be by the grace of God and for his glory.

Edited September 14, 2020 by David1701

[steve morrow]

THE  POINT ?? ---  if by the grace of GOD then why so many of your own words/commentary and followers glorifying you for it  

he that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory but he that seeketh his glory that sent him the same is true and --no unrighteousness-- is in him

but he that glorieth let him glory in  THE  LORD

 

REMINDER ---  ACTS 20:29  for I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock  --20:30--  also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them 

MARK 4:19  and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches ---AND  THE  LUST  OF  OTHER  THINGS  ENTERING  IN--- choke the word and it becometh unfruitful

 

LOVING  THE LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[David1701]

18 hours ago, steve morrow said:

THE  POINT ?? ---  if by the grace of GOD then why so many of your own words/commentary and followers glorifying you for it  

he that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory but he that seeketh his glory that sent him the same is true and --no unrighteousness-- is in him

but he that glorieth let him glory in  THE  LORD

 

REMINDER ---  ACTS 20:29  for I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock  --20:30--  also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them 

MARK 4:19  and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches ---AND  THE  LUST  OF  OTHER  THINGS  ENTERING  IN--- choke the word and it becometh unfruitful

 

LOVING  THE LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

Please quote where I have glorified myself, or retract your insults.  I did not even MENTION myself (or anyone else), in the OP.

It seems that the OP has struck something in you and you feel the need to start making false accusations.  I recognise that spirit....

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Good afternoon David, 

Nice op. There's two concerns here; one intra-personal, and the other interpersonal in the societal or cultural sense. Furthermore, too much of our time, thinking, and effort is couched in this idea and practice of "war" and not in the other aspects of Christ and Christian life. We speak too much of war and the "warrior" in neglect of the "king," "priest," and "lover" (too borrow from the classic archetypes of humanity. Christ is king, warrior, priest, and lover, and he is so in a manner completely different than all other competing mythologies. 

I particularly liked your example of the sheep and wolf because 1) the scriptures speak of the lamb lying with the wolf and 2) many people misquote that verse (Isa. 11:6) by replacing the wolf with a lion!  In the context of conflict it is completely appropriate to envision a fully-horned ram smacking the bejesus (pun intend ) out of a wolf, but in the larger context there are some paradoxes to be had. For example, we best fight corrupt culture by living with integrity ourselves. Not to scapegoat this individual, but on my way in to work this morning I hear a commercial by Jerry Falwell, jr. in which he was advocating certain political and social policies and I thought how much more effective that would be if he weren't in the news for practicing the complete opposite. Moments later I listened as a caller into an NPR talk show described the importance of personal integrity within the military (regardless of their personal politics). 

I wonder how many of us "rule" the culture my our personal example. Is that example one in which firm but flexible (as opposed to rigid or porous) standards are visible? How much of our example truly exemplifies and coherent synthesis of love and justice and the rule of law? Do we exemplify a Christian kind of priesthood, or an OT or Sadducean or Pharisaical model (one constantly stuck at the poles of legalism and/or hypocrisy)? 

Are we not best when we inhabit ruler, warrior, priest, and lover all at the same time as Christ exemplified it in whole scripture? 

 

I'm pretty sure Isaiah's wolf - while still a wolf - has been changed so that it can and does lie with the lamb. It's not just the lamb that has changed. 

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I agree with all your points, in general terms.

Regarding the exemplification of the different aspects of the Lord, in our lives: I've found that there are often times and seasons for one aspect or another to be manifested as the major theme.  This tends to vary, depending upon the needs of the situation (the Lord does not change, but how he deals with people and circumstances depends upon what is appropriate, in that setting).  With Pharisees he destroys their arguments, or rebukes them sternly; with the humble, he is gentle yet uncompromising; with the ignorant, he is a teacher; with the repentant, he is forgiving; with the hurting, he is kind and compassionate, etc.

Culture is not really what I had in mind, unless you are referring to culture in the Assembly; but I agree that integrity and uprightness can be a powerful witness for the Lord; whereas, hypocrisy undermines someone's verbal testimony.

A wolf that is gentle and lies down with a lamb, has had a change of nature.  That kind of wolf is fine.  It's not the kind I meant.

Flexible or rigid?  To answer in general terms would not be helpful, since one situation demands flexibility (e.g. conscience regarding matters that are not prescribed) and another demands rigidity (e.g. inflexibility regarding essentials of the faith - the deity of Christ, etc., or matters of moral certainty - rape is evil, etc.).

These points are not intended as disagreements, just some off-the-cuff thoughts.

[steve morrow]

THE POINT  --  AGAIN 

JOHN 1:17  FOR  THE  LAW  WAS  GIVEN  BY  MOSES  BUT  GRACE  AND  TRUTH  CAME  BY  JESUS  CHRIST 

2 CORINTHIANS 12:9  and he said unto me --MY  GRACE  IS  SUFFICIENT  FOR  THEE-- for  MY  strength is made perfect in weakness most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of  --CHRIST--  may rest upon me 

1 CORINTHIANS 11:1  be you followers of me even as I also am of  CHRIST

 

ROMANS 15:18  FOR  I  WILL  NOT  DARE  TO  SPEAK  OF  ANY  OF  THOSE  THINGS  WHICH  --CHRIST--  HATH  NOT  WROUGHT  BY  ME  TO  MAKE  THE  GENTILES  OBEDIENT  BY  WORD  AND  DEED 

 

JOHN 12:48  he that rejecteth  ME  and receiveth not  MY  WORDS  hath one that judgeth him the word that  --I  HAVE  SPOKEN-- the same shall judge him in the last day   

--12:49--  FOR  I  HAVE  NOT  SPOKEN  OF  MYSELF  BUT  THE  FATHER  WHICH  SENT  ME  HE  GAVE  ME  A  COMMANDMENT  WHAT  I  SHOULD  SAY  AND  WHAT  I  SHOULD  I  SHOULD  SPEAK

--12:50-- and I know that  HIS  commandment is life everlasting whatsoever I speak therefore even as  THE  FATHER  said unto  ME  so  I  speak 

 

LUKE 16:14  and the pharisees also who were covetous heard all these things and they derided  HIM   --16:15--  and  HE  said unto them you are they which justify yourselves before men but  GOD  knoweth your hearts for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of  GOD

2 CORINTHIANS 10:15  not boasting of things without our measure that is ---of other mens labors/works--- but having hope when your faith is increased that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly 

--10:16--  to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you --AND  NOT  TO  BOAST  IN  ANOTHER  MANS  LINE  OF  THINGS-- made ready to our hand 

 

EPHESIANS 2:9  NOT  OF  WORKS  LEST  ANY  MAN  SHOULD  BOAST 

2 CORINTHIANS 3:4  AND  SUCH  TRUST  HAVE  WE  THROUGH  CHRIST  TO  GOD -WARD   --3:5-- NOT  THAT  WE  ARE  SUFFICIENT  OF  OURSELVES TO  THINK  ANYTHING  AS  OF  OURSELVES  --- BUT  OUR  SUFFINCIENCY  IS  OF  GOD --- 

 

TITUS 2:11  for the grace of  GOD  --THAT  BRINGETH  SALVATION-- hath appeared to all men  --2:12-- TEACHING  US -- that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world 

1 TIMOTHY 6:3  if any man teach otherwise and consent not ---TO  WHOLESOME  WORDS  EVEN  THE  WORDS  OF  OUR  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST--- and to the doctrine which is according to --GODLINESS--  

--6:4-- HE IS  PROUD  KNOWING  NOTHING --  but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy strife railings evil surmisings 

 

JOHN 5:34  but I receive not testimony from man but these things--- I say ---that you might be saved 

 

2 CORINTHIANS 7:10  FOR  GODLY  SORROW  WORKETH  REPENTANCE  TO  SALVATION  NOT  TO  BE  REPENTED  OF  BUT  THE  SORROW  OF  THE  WORLD  WORKETH  DEATH 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

Just my observation, If you are wondering why there is not much protection from the shepherds then look to the seminaries where they are being trained.

Who is the one gifting the cash to run the place. Rockefeller is not the best source for donations to a Christian school. Mammon and God do not mix.

I recently read some bits and pieces about some of the seminaries; so I know that you are making a good point.

[David1701]

4 hours ago, steve morrow said:

THE POINT  --  AGAIN 

JOHN 1:17  FOR  THE  LAW  WAS  GIVEN  BY  MOSES  BUT  GRACE  AND  TRUTH  CAME  BY  JESUS  CHRIST 

2 CORINTHIANS 12:9  and he said unto me --MY  GRACE  IS  SUFFICIENT  FOR  THEE-- for  MY  strength is made perfect in weakness most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of  --CHRIST--  may rest upon me 

1 CORINTHIANS 11:1  be you followers of me even as I also am of  CHRIST

 

ROMANS 15:18  FOR  I  WILL  NOT  DARE  TO  SPEAK  OF  ANY  OF  THOSE  THINGS  WHICH  --CHRIST--  HATH  NOT  WROUGHT  BY  ME  TO  MAKE  THE  GENTILES  OBEDIENT  BY  WORD  AND  DEED 

 

JOHN 12:48  he that rejecteth  ME  and receiveth not  MY  WORDS  hath one that judgeth him the word that  --I  HAVE  SPOKEN-- the same shall judge him in the last day   

--12:49--  FOR  I  HAVE  NOT  SPOKEN  OF  MYSELF  BUT  THE  FATHER  WHICH  SENT  ME  HE  GAVE  ME  A  COMMANDMENT  WHAT  I  SHOULD  SAY  AND  WHAT  I  SHOULD  I  SHOULD  SPEAK

--12:50-- and I know that  HIS  commandment is life everlasting whatsoever I speak therefore even as  THE  FATHER  said unto  ME  so  I  speak 

 

LUKE 16:14  and the pharisees also who were covetous heard all these things and they derided  HIM   --16:15--  and  HE  said unto them you are they which justify yourselves before men but  GOD  knoweth your hearts for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of  GOD

2 CORINTHIANS 10:15  not boasting of things without our measure that is ---of other mens labors/works--- but having hope when your faith is increased that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly 

--10:16--  to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you --AND  NOT  TO  BOAST  IN  ANOTHER  MANS  LINE  OF  THINGS-- made ready to our hand 

 

EPHESIANS 2:9  NOT  OF  WORKS  LEST  ANY  MAN  SHOULD  BOAST 

2 CORINTHIANS 3:4  AND  SUCH  TRUST  HAVE  WE  THROUGH  CHRIST  TO  GOD -WARD   --3:5-- NOT  THAT  WE  ARE  SUFFICIENT  OF  OURSELVES TO  THINK  ANYTHING  AS  OF  OURSELVES  --- BUT  OUR  SUFFINCIENCY  IS  OF  GOD --- 

 

TITUS 2:11  for the grace of  GOD  --THAT  BRINGETH  SALVATION-- hath appeared to all men  --2:12-- TEACHING  US -- that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world 

1 TIMOTHY 6:3  if any man teach otherwise and consent not ---TO  WHOLESOME  WORDS  EVEN  THE  WORDS  OF  OUR  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST--- and to the doctrine which is according to --GODLINESS--  

--6:4-- HE IS  PROUD  KNOWING  NOTHING --  but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy strife railings evil surmisings 

 

JOHN 5:34  but I receive not testimony from man but these things--- I say ---that you might be saved 

 

2 CORINTHIANS 7:10  FOR  GODLY  SORROW  WORKETH  REPENTANCE  TO  SALVATION  NOT  TO  BE  REPENTED  OF  BUT  THE  SORROW  OF  THE  WORLD  WORKETH  DEATH 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

I believe all those Scriptures; but anyone can quote Scriptures; in fact, the devil quoted Scriptures at Jesus.

 

[steve morrow]

YES  INDEED  AND  DID  NOT  JESUS  QUOTE  THEM  AS  WELL

LUKE 4;4  and  JESUS  answered him saying it is written that man shall not live by bread alone but by --EVERY  WORD  OF  GOD

LUKE 4:8  and  JESUS  answered and said unto him get thee behind  ME  satan for it is written thou shalt worship  --THE  LORD  THY  GOD  AND  HIM  ONLY  SHALT  THOU  SERVE

LUKE 4:12  and  JESUS  answering said said unto him  --IT  IS  SAID  THOU  SHALT  NOT  TEMPT  THE  LORD  THY  GOD 

 

ROMANS 1:18  FOR  THE  WRATH  OF  GOD  IS  REVEALED  FROM  HEAVEN  AGAINST  ALL  UNGODLINESS  AND  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS  OF  MEN  WHO  HOLD  THE  TRUTH  IN  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS 

PROVERBS 8:8  ALL  THE  WORDS  OF  MY  MOUTH  ARE  IN  RIGHTEOUSNESS  THERE  IS  NOTHING  FROWARD  OR  PERVERSE  IN  THEM

 

MARK 8:35  for whosoever will save his life shall lose it but whosoever shall lose his life for  MY  sake  --and  the  gospels-- THE  SAME  SHALL  SAVE  IT 

LUKE 8:21  and  HE  answered and said unto them  --MY  MOTHER  AND  MY  BRETHREN  ARE  THESE  WHICH  HEAR  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  AND  DO  IT 

PSALM 12:3  THE  LORD  shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue --THAT  SPEAKETH  PROUD THINGS 

--12:4--  WHO  HAVE  SAID  WITH  OUR  TONGUE  WILL  WE  PREVAIL  OUR  LIPS  ARE  OUR  OWN  WHO  IS  LORD  OVER  US 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[David1701]

3 hours ago, steve morrow said:

YES  INDEED  AND  DID  NOT  JESUS  QUOTE  THEM  AS  WELL

LUKE 4;4  and  JESUS  answered him saying it is written that man shall not live by bread alone but by --EVERY  WORD  OF  GOD

LUKE 4:8  and  JESUS  answered and said unto him get thee behind  ME  satan for it is written thou shalt worship  --THE  LORD  THY  GOD  AND  HIM  ONLY  SHALT  THOU  SERVE

LUKE 4:12  and  JESUS  answering said said unto him  --IT  IS  SAID  THOU  SHALT  NOT  TEMPT  THE  LORD  THY  GOD 

 

ROMANS 1:18  FOR  THE  WRATH  OF  GOD  IS  REVEALED  FROM  HEAVEN  AGAINST  ALL  UNGODLINESS  AND  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS  OF  MEN  WHO  HOLD  THE  TRUTH  IN  UNRIGHTEOUSNESS 

PROVERBS 8:8  ALL  THE  WORDS  OF  MY  MOUTH  ARE  IN  RIGHTEOUSNESS  THERE  IS  NOTHING  FROWARD  OR  PERVERSE  IN  THEM

 

MARK 8:35  for whosoever will save his life shall lose it but whosoever shall lose his life for  MY  sake  --and  the  gospels-- THE  SAME  SHALL  SAVE  IT 

LUKE 8:21  and  HE  answered and said unto them  --MY  MOTHER  AND  MY  BRETHREN  ARE  THESE  WHICH  HEAR  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  AND  DO  IT 

PSALM 12:3  THE  LORD  shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue --THAT  SPEAKETH  PROUD THINGS 

--12:4--  WHO  HAVE  SAID  WITH  OUR  TONGUE  WILL  WE  PREVAIL  OUR  LIPS  ARE  OUR  OWN  WHO  IS  LORD  OVER  US 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

MARK 8:35  for whosoever will save his life shall lose it but whosoever shall lose his life for  MY  sake  --and  the  gospels-- THE  SAME  SHALL  SAVE  IT 

LUKE 8:21  and  HE  answered and said unto them  --MY  MOTHER  AND  MY  BRETHREN  ARE  THESE  WHICH  HEAR  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  AND  DO  IT 

Yes, exactly!  These scriptures fit the illustration in the OP very well.

PSALM 12:3  THE  LORD  shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue --THAT  SPEAKETH  PROUD THINGS 

--12:4--  WHO  HAVE  SAID  WITH  OUR  TONGUE  WILL  WE  PREVAIL  OUR  LIPS  ARE  OUR  OWN  WHO  IS  LORD  OVER  US 

Yes again!  These are wolves, who declare false teachings, proudly, against the word of God.  Some of those false teachings were mentioned, in the OP.

Rom. 1:18 (VW) For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Pro. 8:8 (VW) All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; nothing crooked or perverse is in them;

Amen to these also!  The wolves suppress (hold down) the truth in unrighteousness, instead pushing their false doctrines (e.g. Universalism, Kenosis heresy, anti-Trinity, anti-deity of Christ, etc.); and God hates these false teachings, which are often accompanied by unholy lives.

The sheep proclaim the word of God, as the Holy Spirit leads; and their words are not crooked or perverse.

LUKE 4:4  and  JESUS  answered him saying it is written that man shall not live by bread alone but by --EVERY  WORD  OF  GOD

LUKE 4:8  and  JESUS  answered and said unto him get thee behind  ME  satan for it is written thou shalt worship  --THE  LORD  THY  GOD  AND  HIM  ONLY  SHALT  THOU  SERVE

LUKE 4:12  and  JESUS  answering said said unto him  --IT  IS  SAID  THOU  SHALT  NOT  TEMPT  THE  LORD  THY  GOD 

Yes indeed!  Jesus is Lord over all.  He is King of kings and Lord of lords.  We are to follow his example, and, being led by the Holy Spirit, counter the devil's lies and temptations with the word of God.