Daniel 7:7 v. 7:19 (bronze claws)

[Charlie744]

You are so right!

This really is a good one to come together and work through.... 

I just re-read chapter 7 and I am pretty sure I interpreted 7:19 incorrectly. I had originally thought the spiritual being was the one who made the “brass nails” comment... but it seems that Daniel himself had added the “brass” reference to the nails.  

This certainly seems to change things... now, how would Daniel know to add this to the vision?

Oh well! Charlie 

Edit: I would like to ask if someone might please read verses 7:16 to 7:19 and tell me who or how Daniel has this new / added information re: the nails or claws (of brass). 

There may be different translations or I am simply not interpreting it correctly.... is this spiritual being giving Daniel the meaning of this vision that now incorporates “brass” in the description of the nails? Help and thanks, Charlie 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Charlie744
More information...

[luigi]

On 9/16/2020 at 10:23 AM, Charlie744 said:

In Daniel 7:7 the 4th beast is described as having large iron teeth.

In Daniel 7:19 the 4th beast is described as having iron teeth AND bronze claws.

Why do we see the addition of “these bronze claws” and what is it saying to us?

Iron tanks, and bronze bullet casings. Through the bow, aerial armaments, is also the means by which the rider of the white horse goes about conquering others.

Edited September 20, 2020 by luigi

[Charlie744]

Ok and thank you for your response! You have obviously given this much thought!

 I hope you have not mind, but can you comment on why there is no mention of brass in 7:7 yet we see it in 7:19?

 I think the iron teeth reflect the power and lack of concern the beast has against its foes. It is just willing to tear into pieces without any concern. In 7:19 AS IN 7:19, both show a “stamping down and crushing” - no change in the results. The ONLY addition is the “brass” description in 7:19. Why only this addition?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

The ONLY addition is the “brass” description in 7:19. Why only this addition?

 Thank you, Charlie 

Hi Charlie744. Sometimes Scripture includes more detail in the narrative as it progresses to expand on whatever subject is being dealt with. Daniel was trying to get more information and was "made to know the interpretation of the things" by one of the angels in attendance. (See Dan 7:10)

Dan 7:15-16  I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.  (16)  I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

The bronze claws are indeed a reference to the military strength of armed forces capable of tearing their prey to pieces like a wild beast, and with an appetite for cruelty. 

[Charlie744]

Thank you, but as mentioned, there does not seem to be any change in the damage or destruction due to this added piece of information.  Still searching.... thanks.

[Michael37]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you, but as mentioned, there does not seem to be any change in the damage or destruction due to this added piece of information.  Still searching.... thanks.

The inclusion of more detail in the repeat reference to the 4th beast doesn't in any way imply a change in the beast's metaphorical reality, that of a great waring nation which, as history proves, turned out to be the Roman Empire.  In verse 7 Daniel writes of his vision in the night and mentions the activity of this 4th beast's feet.

Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

In the context of verse 19 Daniel is talking to an attending angel who provides more clarity and so in this repeat reference to the 4th beast Daniel writes more detail about what he has seen in his troubling vision in the night. Authors, writers, and journalists do this sort of thing all the time in their recounting of events to reinforce the storyline. TV shows often open with "previously" as they show repeat clips of things seen before, and sometimes include "outakes" of things not included previously, particularly in so-called "reality TV".  

Dan 7:19-20  Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;  (20)  And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
 

Here we can go "Aha! The 4th beast has claws or nails of brass or bronze! Very interesting. Yes, the Roman armed forces ripped into every nation it came across and stamped on those it left alive."

[Charlie744]

Thank you for your thoughts!

However I believe there is a definite reason for God to have this added description mentioned within some 12 verses of this chapter - God does not do random, or inserts any letter or word without a specific reason. It is up us to learn what and why He has written these things.

 I agree with you that Rome would tear into or year apart its enimies but that was already mentioned in 7:7. 

Although I am still searching, I believe the key to this is the information BETWEEN 7 and 19:

We see the introduction of the heavenly being (I believe it is Jesus), and He is coming at the end of times (v. 10). This is the time of judgment.

Therefore, these in between verses are giving us an understanding of the TIME or length of time the beast will harm and destroy.

So, within the 4th kingdom, this beast will destroy from its inception to the 2nd coming and will be destroyed only by Jesus Himself. 

The only change seems to be the “brass” used in v.19.... 

Is the “iron” used to mean a very destructive force AND a “timing” reference (beginning of its rule), while the added term “brass” is mentioned to indicate both a “timing” point AND ..... 

Wait a minute... I must have read this a hundred times and simply read over this- there is NOT JUST ONE word added!!!!

Verse 7:19 says, “nails of brass” and NOT just brass. Verse 7:7 has “feet”, while 7:19 has “nails of brass”!!

Sorry for missing this ... this should help us understand the purpose of the changes ... we know there is a 2,000 year period between the two uses or mention of the metals.. 

Hope you might see this and can help! Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Continued..... since this added phrase “nails of brass or bronze” has been added AFTER the introduction of the “spiritual being (Jesus), perhaps this means that God is going to judge at His second coming which is AFTER the destruction of the 4th kingdom/beast????

bronze speaks of God’s righteous judgement that is perfectly just and tempered, wisely administered with precision and perfect timing to get the results he desires, motivated by love.

Any thoughts? Thanks, Charlie 

[Michael37]

21 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Continued..... since this added phrase “nails of brass or bronze” has been added AFTER the introduction of the “spiritual being (Jesus), perhaps this means that God is going to judge at His second coming which is AFTER the destruction of the 4th kingdom/beast????

bronze speaks of God’s righteous judgement that is perfectly just and tempered, wisely administered with precision and perfect timing to get the results he desires, motivated by love.

Any thoughts? Thanks, Charlie 

Hi Charlie744, Daniel has the vision of the 4th beast the one time. Then he recalls his vision and requests its interpretation from one of the angels attending the Ancient of Days.

"thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him:"

The fact that Daniel then includes more information in his narrative about the beast is not some great puzzle or mysterious code waiting to be cracked by some theological genius. It's just more information about the weaponry of the Roman army. In the same way in Revelation 13 John is shown the characteristics of the 7-headed beast from the sea of humanity. From the imagery shown he is informed that leopard-like camouflage, stealth and agility to surprise, bear-like power to claw and stamp, and lion-like dominance to assert authority, will be features of the last days governmental tyranny. 

Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

[Charlie744]

Again, thank you for your comments but, for me, I have absolutely no doubt God has placed “nails of brass” for a very specific reason. Every Word He writes has a purpose and meaning behind it...

It makes NO sense to me that He would want or leave it up to us to determine if even one of His Words were just “color” (my word only and I am sure there are more appropriate words to place here).... but I hope it gets my point across.

So, I would rather try to understand what He wants us to see versus assuming / discussing IF it is relevant- again, for me it is clear it has a special meaning.

 Thank you again, Charlie