Daniel 2 and the dream of the great statue.

[iamlamad]

On 9/24/2020 at 2:18 AM, Revelation Man said:

Shiloh wrote: but scripture says the beast did not exist when revelation was written. 

ONE IS...........that verse proves you wrong.

Rome is the Fourth Beast, there is no argument to be made in reality. 

You did not even understand what he said; but you being so eager to promote yourself just tried to prove him wrong. This seem to be your SOP (Standard operational procedure). You are comparing  oranges to cherries. (one you peel - the  other you don't)

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:10
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

It is a KING (and his kingdom) that was in existence in John's time. 
But the Beast (the demonic spirit behind the AC)  was not at that time.  He was before, probably with Antiochus.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

All roads lead to Rome, just not this one. 

There is nothing different about Rome compared to the Babylon, Medo-Persia or Greece. Basically the same governments just with different leaders and names. Islam is diverse from the three. 

Islam is a PART (Biggest part now) of the Harlot, it will be killed off. (Rev. 17:16)

This is where you, and everyone misses the WHO that is being referred to in verse 24, which is about the TWO BEASTS that come out of the Fourth Beasts Kingdom and how they are DIFFERENT........We already know the other beasts are ALL DIFFERENT, God is not repeating that via just Rome and Babylon being different. 

You say, NOTHING is different between Rome compared to Babylon, Media-Persia or Greece, but the bible says different.

Dan. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Now don't go getting all defensive brother, they were ALL FOUR DIVERSE/Different from one another. THAT'S MY POINT !! Verse 24 can't be God/Gabriel REPEATING what He's already told us in verse  3, if it is, He has BACKED UP on what was first stated, that they ALL were different from each other to NOW SAYING.......It's just that he was DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST......And God doesn't ever change His ways like that. It means something totally different. Its not about the Little Horn being different from THE FIRST as in Babylon, we already understand that ALL FOUR WERE DIVERSE from each other, VERSE 24 is saying the Anti-Christ (HE) shall be different from the First Beast (ROME). Thereby its telling us the Fourth Beast has two different VARIED Beasts, a Kingdom Beast AND a MAN BEAST (666) who is thus called the Little Horn meaning a MAN RULER instead of a bigger horn (many Kings in a Kingdom which lasts a long time).

Dan. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings(2000 years of a FRACTURED Europe/Iron & Clay) that shall arise: and another(Little Horn) shall rise after them(many kings/kingdoms thus 10 means the COMPLETE NUMERER THEREOF); and he (Anti-Christ) shall be diverse from the first(Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.

You see, the HE has to be the Anti-Christ brother.........AND the First can't be Babylon, it has to be Rome. ALL FOUR WERE DIVERSE, thus if this were talking about the same thing it would have stated HE (Anti-Christ) was diverse from ALL the other Beasts like verse 3 states, BUT its not about that, its about the TWO BEASTS out of the Fourth Beasts territory, thus they all ARISE out of the Head of the Fourth Beast, they will look exactly alike on a map, as I have shown via my European Neighborhood Policy maps AND the old Roman Empire maps. So, verse 3 says they are ALL DIVERSE, of course they are, they all cover different areas and ruled for different lengths of time in very different manners. From 70 AD until 1948 there can be NO BEAST over Israel, of course Rome as a Kingdom still had to fall, as a matter of fact there can be NO BEAST until the Church DEPARTS. We, the Church delivered the Mortal Wound in that we could not be overcome by Satan because the gates of hell could not over come the Holy Spirit filled Church of Jesus Christ as a whole body. 

On 9/25/2020 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

Since when is Rome the 10 horns? The ten horns are ten kings that give rise to an 11th which subdues three. This is yet a mystery. 

Its a STAND IN for the complete number thereof at any given time. The number 7 is used in the same way, and when 7 and 10 are used 7 always usurps/overrides the number 10. In the book of Revelation we are told about the 7 Spirits and 7 Eyes, but it only means God is everywhere and sees everything. The 10 Kings mean a DIVIDED EUROPE, the same Kingdom that fell, will be as Iron and Clay, it will not cleave together, BUT a number of Kings shall arise down through the ages, and try as they might, via Royal Marriage (seed of men) or wars, they will not CLEAVE TOGETHER, or form as one nation again, until the VERY END OF TIME !! Then this Europe will REFORM/Reunite and give all of their powers to this ONE MAN, the Little Horn. The number 10 just stands for the compete number of kings that arose over all the time whilst these kings/kingdoms were not able to cleave to one another. The number is going to change at all times, kings rise and fall, so the number 10 is used to just speak about the complete area being spoken about. 

On 9/25/2020 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

Sorry, it's doubtful Europe has anything to do with prophecy, except in the least way perhaps, as the prophecies of the end of the age are all Israel, Mideast, Jerusalem-centric. Europe will come against Jerusalem at the end but is not a powerbroker before that.

Dan 7 says they ARISE out of the Fourth Beasts Head. Dan. 8 says he's born in Greece (Greece is in the E.U.) Isaiah 10 says he's an Assyrian, so he's a Turk, born in Greece, who comes to power out of the FRACTURED KINGDOMS that were the Fourth Beast. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn has already came to the pleasant land and waxes great. You've been sleeping. 

 

WRONG.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn is not one of the ten. In fact the ten horns hate the little horn. 

 

No, they hate the Harlot, which means Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. ALL False Religion because they are JEALOUS of it, the 10 (E.U.) FREELY give their power unto the Little Horn.......SEE Rev. 17:12 brother.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn is stouter and he's different than the others and he defeated three of them in 1967 in a war for possession of the seven heads. 

 

The Anti-Christ only rules for 42 months in the very end times as the Beast.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn is Israel who today has 200-400 nuclear warheads. Israel would blow Rome off the map if Rome even  thought about another holocaust.

 

Read Dan. 7:11, it tells you he is a MAN, with a MOUTH and BODY who is then cast into HELLFIRE.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:13 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

You think Rome wants to have a nuclear war with Israel and you think Rome wants to have a war with the Lamb of God. In the meantime Iran is preparing to go to war in a place called Armegeddon Israel so it can destroy Israel. When the Euphrates river dries up, the kings of the east shall go to war with Israel and its ally, the king of the north. 

 

The Anti-Christ does all this, he arises out of the old Fourth Beast and CONQUERS North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. etc. He is NOT ALLOWED to Conquer the Petra/Bozrah area, so says Dan. 11:40-43. 

Iran is DEFEATED BY God dude, read Ezekiel 38, the Gog Magog war.

The KINGS of the East is METAPHORIC for all the Beasts........it represents the STATUE thus the Kings of the east are included. So, we thereby have Babylon and Persia represented METAPHOTICALLY (Kings of the East) and Greece and Rome are also Represented, because the Anti-Christ is BORN in Greece and comes to POWER via the Fourth Beasts Territory (HEAD). This is why Daniel 11 has all the Greek kings genealogy!!

Now, how can I prove the Kings of the East are just used "METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING" to show God vs. Satan's Dark Kingdoms of the Present and PAST? WATCH: Why would God need to use the Kings of the East SPECIFICALLY when later on He states that ALL THE KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD are going to Gather to battle against God? 

Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So, like I stated, the reason we know the Kings of the east really is a THROW AWAY LINE, is its not needed, we can see that ALL THE KINGS of the WHOLE WORLD are going to be fighting God at Armageddon, so why mention the Kings of the east? Because, God is wanting to show us a pattern. We have the Beast Kingdoms as a WHOLE down through the ages represented by the Anti-Christ (a Greek) who comes to power out of the old Fourth Beasts (Rome's territory) Head and thus the Kings of the East are ADDED IN to show all four of Daniel's Beasts, just like Rev. 13 shows the Leopard, Lion and Bear along with the Mortal Wound (Rome) and the MAN/Beast who Heals the Mortal Wound (Anti-Christ). 

Its not needed, thus its METAPHORIC IN NATURE. We can see that ALL THE KINGS of the WHOLE WORLD will be at Armageddon. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Shilohsfoal]

44 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

WRONG.

No, the hate the Harlot, which means Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. ALL False Religion because they are JEALOUS of it, the 10 FREELY give their power unto the Little Horn.......SEE Rev. 17:12 brother.

The Anti-Christ only rules for 42 months in the very end times as the Beast.

Read Dan. 7:11, it tells you he is a MAN, with a MOUTH and BODY who is then cast into HELLFIRE.

The Anti-Christ does all this, he arises out of the old Fourth Beast and CONQUERS North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. etc. He is NOT ALLOWED to Conquer the Petra/Bozrah area, so says Dan. 11:40-43. 

Iran is DEFEATED BY God dude, read Ezekiel 38, the Gog Magog war.

The KINGS of the East is METAPHORIC for al the Beasts........it represents the STATUE thus the Kings of the east are included. So, we thereby have Babylon and Persia represented METAPHOTICALLY and Greece and Rome are also Represented, because the Anti-Christ is BORN in Greece and comes to POWER via the Fourth Beasts Territory (HEAD). This is why Daniel 11 has all the Greek kings genealogy!!

Now, how can I prove the Kings of the East are just used METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING to show God vs. Satan's Dark Kingdoms of the Present and PAST? WATCH: Why would God need to use the Kings of the East SPECIFICALLY when later on He states that ALL THE KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD are going to Gather to battle against God? 

Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So, like I stated, the reason we know the Kings of the east really is a THROW AWAY LINE, is its not needed, we can see that ALL THE KINGS of the WHOLE WORLD are going to be fighting God at Armageddon, so why mention the Kings of the east? Because, God is wanting to show us a pattern. We have the Beast Kingdoms as a WHOLE down through the ages represented by the Anti-Christ ( a Greek) who comes to power out of the old Fourth Beasts (Rome's territory) and thus the Kings of the East are ADDED IN to show all four of Daniel Beasts, just like Rev. 13 shows the Leopard, Lion and Bear along with the Mortal Wound (Rome) and the MAN/Beast who Heals the Mortal Wound (Anti-Christ). 

Its not needed, thus its METAPHORIC IN NATURE. We can see that ALL THE KINGS of the WHOLE WORLD will be at Armageddon. 

The little horn is the king of Babylon. 

PS

The word earth"ghay" doesnt always mean the world. It can mean a kingdom, country, continent, or a handful of dirt. 

Don't just assume. 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Islam is a PART (Biggest part now) of the Harlot, it will be killed off. (Rev. 17:16)

This is where you, and everyone misses the WHO that is being referred to in verse 24, which is about the TWO BEASTS that cone out of the Fourth Beasts Kingdom and how they are DIFFERENT........We already know the other beasts are ALL DIFFERENT, God is not repeating that via just Rome and Babylon being different. 

You say, NOTHING is different between Rome compared to Babylon, Media-Persia or Greece, but the bible says different.

Dan. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Now don't go getting al defensive brother, they were ALL FOUR DIVERSE/Different from one another. THAT'S MY POINT !! Verse 24 can't be God/Gabriel REPEATING what Hes already told us in verse  3, if it is, He has BACKED UP on what was first stated, that they ALL were different from each other to NOW.......It's just that he was DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST......And God doesn't ever change His ways like that. It means something totally different. Its not about the Little Horn being different from THE FIRST as in Babylon, we already understand that ALL FOUR WERE DIVERSE from each other, VERSE 24 is saying the Anti-Christ (HE) shall be different from the First Beast (ROME). There by its telling us the Fourth Beast has two different VCARIED Beasts, a Kingdom Beast AND a MAN BEAST (666) who is thus called the Little Horn meaning a MAN RULER instead of a bigger horn (many Kings in a Kingdom).

Dan. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings(2000 years of a REACTURED Europe/Iron & Clay) that shall arise: and another(Little Horn) shall rise after them(many kings/kingdoms thus 10 means COMPLETE NUMERER THEREOF); and he (Anti-Christ) shall be diverse from the first(Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.

You see, the HE has to be the Anti-Christ brother.........AND the First can't be Babylon, it has to be Rome. ALL FOUR WERE DIVERSE, thus if this were talking about the same thing it would have stated HE (Anti-Christ) were diverse from ALL the other Beasts like verse 3 states, BUT its not about that, its about the TWO BEASTS out of the Fourth Beasts territory, thus they all ARISE out of the Head of the Fourth Beast, they will look exactly alike on a map, as I have shown via my European Neighborhood Policy maps AND the old Roman Empire maps. So, verse 3 says they are ALL DIVERSE, of course they are, they all cover different areas and ruled for different lengths of time in very different manners. From 70 AD until 1948 there can be NO BEAST over Israel, of course Rome as a Kingdom still had to fall, as a matter of fact there can be NO BEAST until the Church DEPARTS. Wee, the Church delivered the Mortal Wound in that we could not be overcome by Satan because the gates of hell could not over come the Holy Spirit filled Church of Jesus Christ as a whole body. 

Its a STAND IN for the complete number thereof at any given time. The number 7 is used in the same way, and when 7 and 10 are used 7 always usurps/overrides the number 10. In the book of Revelation we are told about the 7 Spirits and  Eyes, but it only means God is everywhere and sees everything. The 10 Kings mean a DIVIDED EUROPE, the same Kingdom that fell, will be as Iron and Clay, it will not cleave together, BUT a number of Kings shall arise down through the ages, and try as they might, via Royal Marriage (seed of men) or wars, they will not CLEAVE TOGETHER, or form as one nation again, until the VERY END OF TIME !! Then this Europe will REFORM and give all of their powers to this ONE MAN, the Little Horn. The number 10 just stands for the compete number of kings that arose over all the time whilst these kings/kingdoms were not able to cleave to one another. The number is going to change at all times, kings rise and fall, so the number 10 is used to just speak about the complete area being spoken about. 

Dan 7 says they ARISE out of the Fourth Beasts Head. Dan. 8 says hes born in Greece (Greece is in the E.U.) Isaiah 10 says hes an Assyrian, so hes a Turk, born in Greece, who comes to power out of the FRACTURED KINGDOMS that were the Fourth Beast. 

None of your notes or emphasis does anything but confuse. And OF COURSE you leave out the part that disproves your stance:

"This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it."

Rome is the same as the first three in: culture, economics, religion, finance, education, advancement, security, etc.  Civil governments all. Islam is Theocratic. Very different. Polar opposite. Dichotomous.

[Dennis1209]

On 9/19/2020 at 4:36 PM, BibleReader said:

What an interesting post!  Got me to think quite a bit.  What you mention about the Hebrew words Minnak and Ara is quite fascinating and I'd like to do more research on this.  Furthermore, what you mention about Daniel 2:40 is very true, and a while back, I also came to the conclusion that Rome likely is not the fourth kingdom in the vision because of what you mention. 

Now here's where I'm inclined to differ when it comes to our conclusions:  I believe the fourth kingdom of iron legs and iron and clay feet will arise in the future, in other words, it's not here yet.  Here's why I believe that and I'd appreciate constructive criticism here:

• The first three kingdoms played a huge role in affecting God's chosen people by making changes to the temple. 
  • The Babylonians destroyed Solomon's temple
  • The Persians authorized the construction of the temple
  • The Greeks (Antiochus IV), constructed a pagan altar atop the temple altar in Jerusalem and dedicated it to the Greek god Zeus.
• Daniel chapters 2, 11 and 12 seem to be intertwined (compare Daniel 2:44,45 with Daniel 11:45, 12:1).  Since Daniel 11:31 seems to indicate a temple structure (whether spiritual or physical I can't be sure at this time) that will be profaned (see Daniel 11:31) precisely 1,290 days prior to the "end" (See Daniel 12:8,11), this leads me to believe that the fourth kingdom may not be here yet.

Lastly, regarding the identities of each of the metallic parts of the image,  one hypothesis is the following and I'd like to know what you think (especially about # 3 in the list below):

1. Gold=Babylon
2. Silver=Persia
3. Copper=Greco-Roman empires (Greece and later Rome)
4. Iron legs with iron and clay feet=The King of the North (it will appear in the future or it's already in the making)

 

 

Of course we all have different prophetic views of scripture. I have my own life long view of the representations given in Daniel. I've studied the two most popular views of Nebuchadnezzar's legs of iron, feet of iron mixed with miry clay, the eastern leg of the Roman empire outlasting the western by 1,000 years, the division of the Grecian Empire to Alexander's four generals, etc. 

I've studied the newest argument; that the legs of 'iron' represent the two major factions of Islam [Shia - Sunni]. I have to say, they do make an excellent argument. But based on the preponderance of information given in the Bible and my hermeneutic view, I still hold on to the longest traditional views by various scholars over the last few centuries. 

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It appears to me that 'glass' is lightening up, and Daniel's book is starting to open? We're seeing so many dramatic global changes never seen before. A European Union partially strong and partially weak, with the changes occuring in their Muslim migration, open borders and economic woes. Nations now lining up to move their Israel embassies to Jerusalem. The brilliant Abraham Accord, and the Arab nations signing on, and the many that are open and interested in it. The alignment of the nations [Russia, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Sudan and Ethiopia]; their military treaties and interests, gathering and building up on Israel's northern border in preparation for the Gog-Magog invasion. The discovery of Israel's Goliath natural gas / oil fields; their construction of a pipeline to Greece, with the interference of Russia, Turkey and Libya to stop it. On and on.

My point of all the above is: As fast as everything is happening and end-time events are shaping up; I don't believe we have much longer to figure out the correct view point? 

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn is the king of Babylon. 

PS

The word earth"ghay" doesnt always mean the world. It can mean a kingdom, country, continent, or a handful of dirt. 

Don't just assume. 

 

Right, it means the WHOLE EARTH/Land being spoken about. 

Rev. 16:19 tells us who these Kings God defeats are It says God calls them Babylon the Great in Rev. 16:19. So, who all did God defeat in Revelation 16:19? Well, God tells us in the 6th Vial. It says the KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD gathered to fight against God. 

So, in this instance God is referencing the WHOLE EARTH. 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

None of your notes or emphasis does anything but confuse. And OF COURSE you leave out the part that disproves your stance:

"This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it."

Rome is the same as the first three in: culture, economics, religion, finance, education, advancement, security, etc.  Civil governments all. Islam is Theocratic. Very different. Polar opposite. Dichotomous.

It clearly says they were all different from each other brother. You are not following the bible trail, you are following what a lot of people call a false trail of bread crumbs. This happens all the time in prophecy, there are fads that come and go. There is ZERO CHANCE that Islam could ever conquer and rule. There are no signs that show that this could eve happen. 

No one trusts them, they are too fractured as peoples, unlike China, the USA, Russia or the E.U. who all have concentrated nations. The bible says that Turkey and Iran (along with Russia) get DEFEATED by God on the mount of Israel. How can you conquer Israel to become the Beast when you are defeated by God Himself?  

You are giving me great reasons why they are different, but it doesn't match the other criteria. Thus, the DIFFERENCE has to between the HE and the First Beast. The difference is in the nature of the kingdom. One is a Great Beast handed down from king tom king over a log period of time. The other is ONE MAN who never passes his kingdom on to another. He's cast straight into hell. 

I agree, the Fourth Beast HAS to be different from all the other kingdoms, VERSE 3 already told us that.

But verse 24 is the clue that matters, HE (Man) was DIFFERENT from the First (not all). This is telling us about the Fourth Beast Kingdom have two different type Beasts that arise out of its territory. 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Right, it means the WHOLE EARTH/Land being spoken about. 

Rev. 16:19 tells us who these Kings God defeats are It says God calls them Babylon the Great in Rev. 16:19. So, who all did God defeat in Revelation 16:19? Well, God tells us in the 6th Vial. It says the KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD gathered to fight against God. 

So, in this instance God is referencing the WHOLE EARTH. 

No, God is not talking about the whole earth. 

Babylon, that harlot which John saw sitting upon the beast is a city. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/17-18.htm

The city those ten kings hate. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/17-16.htm

The city which they attack is Jerusalem. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-7.htm

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-8.htm

The city of Jerusalem(capital of Israel) represents the mother of her children. Those who are in captivity worship other gods(the beast). It is they who recieve the mark of the beast as that city reigns over that kingdom. 

To put it in simpler terms. Nearly 2000 years ago the king of Israel rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. He was rejected and killed. Today those of the captivity have chosen to themselves a king. One whos symbol is a star. 

https://biblehub.com/niv/amos/5-26.htm

Edited September 29, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It clearly says they were all different from each other brother. You are not following the bible trail, you are following what a lot of people call a false trail of bread crumbs. This happens all the time in prophecy, there are fads that come and go. There is ZERO CHANCE that Islam could ever conquer and rule. There are no signs that show that this could eve happen. 

No one trusts them, they are too fractured as peoples, unlike China, the USA, Russia or the E.U. who all have concentrated nations. The bible says that Turkey and Iran (along with Russia) get DEFEATED by God on the mount of Israel. How can you conquer Israel to become the Beast when you are defeated by God Himself?  

You are giving me great reasons why they are different, but it doesn't match the other criteria. Thus, the DIFFERENCE has to between the HE and the First Beast. The difference is in the nature of the kingdom. One is a Great Beast handed down from king tom king over a log period of time. The other is ONE MAN who never passes his kingdom on to another. He's cast straight into hell. 

I agree, the Fourth Beast HAS to be different from all the other kingdoms, VERSE 3 already told us that.

But verse 24 is the clue that matters, HE (Man) was DIFFERENT from the First (not all). This is telling us about the Fourth Beast Kingdom have two different type Beasts that arise out of its territory. 

Well, at least the whole world isn't destroyed when that forth kingdom(the beast) is destroyed. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-12.htm

I'm glad I don't live in that forth kingdom. It used to bother me till I learned where it is.