conciousness & anesthesia

[teddyv]

13 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Which would imply they had not lost consciousness. They were aware of what was happening but unable to feel it or respond to it while occurring. I can assure you that if you are aware your chest has been opened up and folks have their hands messing around inside of you....

...you will respond.  

And if you awaken after that fact with that memory intact then it will persist and its persistence will be bothersome. 

But only if you have a brain . 

 

Did you know memories aren't recorded only in the brain? 

They had not lost consciousness because the doctor did not give a correct dose which does not really answer anything either way. I was speaking more to the memory-wiping component. There has to be some studies on this, but I don't have time (nor likely the knowledge) to look it up.

[Chris Schutte]

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean with conciousness:  It is the idea that one is an autonomous, self aware entity that distinguishes itself (concious self awareness) separate from one’s physical atrributes; to extent where one is concious of one’s own conciousness; that is, one can contemplate and reflect on one’s self awareness.

For example: looking at your own body you can say that these are my arms, my legs; inside my head is my brain; thereby distinguishing onself separate from the sum of your parts. I could therefore pose the question: If those are your arms, your legs, your brain inside your head, then who are you ? Or what are you, if not the sum of the parts of your body ?

One doesn’t say “I am brain”, but “I have a brain”, so then who is the “I” ?

That is what I mean with being an atonomous concious entity occupying a body.

I have never heard anybody that could even begin to explain how pure bio-chemical processes, matter and energy, can result in producing something that is its polar opposite. That is to say how molecular processes that is purely physical in nature can produce something that is purely non-physical in nature. How does bio-chemistry explain or derive features like mind, free will, self awareness, self contemplation, emotion, thoughts, innate moral standards. These are all non tangibles, in that they are not physical or measurable in nature, yet every bit as real as the electrical impulses firing between your synapses (your; that word again) in your brain.

Yet if these meta-physical attributes, like mind, exist atonomously from the computer in your head, why do they seem to shut down the moment the brain shuts down ?

 

Honestly, I'm not even sure whether I've clarified my intent or muddied the waters even further .. 

C’mon, where are the resident philosophers ?

Edited October 19, 2020 by Chris Schutte

[Starise]

I questioned similar things. This is an atheist counter argument to the soul too. People are sometimes tempted to doubt that we are intact as a soul after death.

I am the type to question everything within reason so far as I can ascertain. As a believer I would believe we have a soul, even if there were no scientific proof because I believe what God says about it. This doesn't mean I haven't thought about HOW we come to be separated and continue to live.

One of my first basic questions was, why can't I see with my eyes closed? The answer is both simple and complex. It would seem that since we are a soul, the body should not hinder sight without eyes. Yet we are "tied" to these bodies of flesh, interfaced to them in the physical world. So long as we are alive we are in the body and we must live with the consequences. The minute we are loosed from the body I am of the opinion we are no longer tied to the body and other rules come into play which might make no sense to us now in this realm.

On the operating table we are still tied to our body being kept alive. There doesn't seem to be much of an in between state. We are one or the other.

The Bible says we will have a new body in glory. Obviously this means we will have bodies there too. Jesus had a body when He rose again. We are promised a new body. Until then what happens?  I believe we are cognitive of our surroundings just in another context. To what degree we have physical freedom and ability I don't know while we are in this interim state. 

One of those on the cross beside Jesus when He died was promised he would be with him that very day in glory. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

[Starise]

Geesh Josheb we are agreeing on something here 

[Starise]

For the record I don't see this thread as an "argument" I see it more like a reasoning process about death and the soul. 

Those without the spirit most assuredly can't or won't see the idea that we are so much more than meets the eye. 

I recently read a post about reasoning with fools and now fruitless it is to do so. 

I don't believe this discussion if fruitless though if it sheds some insight or at least stirs some thought on the process, but that's me.

Dying is a big deal, at least for me it is. It's nice to comfort one another in the assurance that it's all going to be OK.

Death is not a natural thing. I think we instinctively know this. Our bodies fight until the bitter end. God has the answer. I believe in that.

[leah777]

In the deaths I have witnessed, there is definitely a change in the person's face immediately after death. They no longer look 'real' and 'present' in the same way as before. It's hard to describe.

Whereas, under anaesthesia, they remain real and present. 

Many do die peacefully, not drugged peace, simply passing from life to physical death with no struggle. I find this reassuring.

[Starise]

leah777 maybe you are politely correcting me here in what I said about death being a struggle till the very end. 

I stand corrected. You are right. Many do die peacefully. As some might have read. I not too long ago had to have my dad unhooked from life support. He was drugged before they did it. I seen his body try to breath for a few minutes after they removed the breathing tube. It was a hard thing for me to see. I have felt twinges of guilt from it off and on ever since. In that case his passing looked brief and restful afterward but not totally struggle free. I can't say he was aware he was trying to breath because they had drugged him to fall asleep. I like to think he wasn't aware.

I seen my wife's father near death. He had cancer and was sent to hospice. I seen the process where your body gradually begins to shut down. They stop eating, Where we would get hungry, they don't. They lay there until they die. I can't say how much of this was natural and how much of this was medication. My best description is they sleep into death which seems peaceful from looking at them. When my wife's mother died she stopped taking in fluids. Right before she died her jaw locked up from dehydration. I think she wanted to be with her husband and just gave up. Every day after he died she talked about missing him. I helped move her to the morgue wagon. This might seem callous to say, but it didn't feel like we were moving "her". Sort of the way a dead dry tree limb feels. No life. To me it wasn't her any more.

I have also been to those places where they take people's bodies who agreed to donate themselves to science as a part of my job. Thankfully it hasn't been very often and I hope I never have to go in one of those again. They seem so much smaller than people who are alive. I would look at the bags and think, There's a person in there? I wasn't about to open the bag to find out.

 

[Chris Schutte]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I questioned similar things. This is an atheist counter argument to the soul too. People are sometimes tempted to doubt that we are intact as a soul after death.

I am the type to question everything within reason so far as I can ascertain. As a believer I would believe we have a soul, even if there were no scientific proof because I believe what God says about it. This doesn't mean I haven't thought about HOW we come to be separated and continue to live.

One of my first basic questions was, why can't I see with my eyes closed? The answer is both simple and complex. It would seem that since we are a soul, the body should not hinder sight without eyes. Yet we are "tied" to these bodies of flesh, interfaced to them in the physical world. So long as we are alive we are in the body and we must live with the consequences. The minute we are loosed from the body I am of the opinion we are no longer tied to the body and other rules come into play which might make no sense to us now in this realm.

On the operating table we are still tied to our body being kept alive. There doesn't seem to be much of an in between state. We are one or the other.

The Bible says we will have a new body in glory. Obviously this means we will have bodies there too. Jesus had a body when He rose again. We are promised a new body. Until then what happens?  I believe we are cognitive of our surroundings just in another context. To what degree we have physical freedom and ability I don't know while we are in this interim state. 

One of those on the cross beside Jesus when He died was promised he would be with him that very day in glory. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

 

fair comments .. thx for your input

I think any argument on this topic will have to be philosophical in nature, by default ..

[Chris Schutte]

50 minutes ago, Starise said:

For the record I don't see this thread as an "argument" I see it more like a reasoning process about death and the soul. 

yep, no arguments here .. just thinking out loudly and seeking input from others

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Chris Schutte

[leah777]

27 minutes ago, Starise said:

leah777 maybe you are politely correcting me here in what I said about death being a struggle till the very end. 

I stand corrected. You are right. Many do die peacefully. As some might have read. I not too long ago had to have my dad unhooked from life support. He was drugged before they did it. I seen his body try to breath for a few minutes after they removed the breathing tube. It was a hard thing for me to see. I have felt twinges of guilt from it off and on ever since. In that case his passing looked brief and restful afterward but not totally struggle free. I can't say he was aware he was trying to breath because they had drugged him to fall asleep. I like to think he wasn't aware.

I seen my wife's father near death. He had cancer and was sent to hospice. I seen the process where your body gradually begins to shut down. They stop eating, Where we would get hungry, they don't. They lay there until they die. I can't say how much of this was natural and how much of this was medication. My best description is they sleep into death which seems peaceful from looking at them. When my wife's mother died she stopped taking in fluids. Right before she died her jaw locked up from dehydration. I think she wanted to be with her husband and just gave up. Every day after he died she talked about missing him. I helped move her to the morgue wagon. This might seem callous to say, but it didn't feel like we were moving "her". Sort of the way a dead dry tree limb feels. No life. To me it wasn't her any more.

I have also been to those places where they take people's bodies who agreed to donate themselves to science as a part of my job. Thankfully it hasn't been very often and I hope I never have to go in one of those again. They seem so much smaller than people who are alive. I would look at the bags and think, There's a person in there? I wasn't about to open the bag to find out.

 

I offer sorrow for your losses. I wasn't correcting you, just giving a different perspective for some deaths. 

Yes, people seem to shrink when their life force leaves.

Should I comment on what may have been happening when your father tried to breath?