Creation Etc.

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

Ok, this came to me.

The waters that are described in Gen 1:2 are a form of water that we are not aware of.

Maybe material water in a spiritual form.

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Think of it like this example.

Water has 3 general forms that we think of, being gas, liquid, and solid.

All three forms are the same "substance", but are very different forms of the same substance.

In Gen 1:2, we would add a fourth type of water, beyond gas, a type that is spiritual, that when it is separated by God, it becomes the two elements of air and water that we know.  

What the water was before it was separated in to air and water, we do not know. Another form of substance that we do not know about. Different. More spiritual than a material gas, liquid, or solid.

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To go a little further,

The earth is born out of the waters on the 3rd day.

It appears to be made from the waters also, created "within" the waters.

Another form of the waters, solid, like ice, only earth.

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We also have the waters in us. Flowing though us.

All life has water. So all life is created from water.

All material creation would be from the 4th form of water, beyond gas, the first one that we cannot identify in a material world, the type of water that was separated into the basic two forms that we know now.

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I find Gen 1:2 quite compelling, it seems the earth was still an object but formless and void, if not why did the writer present earth as something yet void and formless.

[HAZARD]

On 10/20/2020 at 8:38 AM, abcdef said:

 Say Anything you want to about the creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, etc.

 

God, created a perfect earth the first time back in the dateless past.

Hundreds of Scriptures prove this beyond doubt, all we need do is read them, let it sink in, and believe what we read.

 

God is not the author of chaos or confusion, God does not create anything inferior, broken, ruined, flooded, and then fixes it as He goes along.

 

Blotting out the sun, and brining on floods are not acts of creation.

 

In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1;2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

 

 Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care and time as the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures. In the work of the six days, it is stated that God formed with His hands each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13).

It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear that God FORMED all things with His hands. (God FORMED  both light and darkness (Isa. 45:7). He did not do this in the first day of Gen. 1:3-5, for at that time He merely divided them.

Therefore they must have been created and formed before the first day.

It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3; 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 19:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12); the planets (Ps. 8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation of all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands He formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).

By the creation of the material universe we mean the creation of the heavens and of the Earth, and all things originally created therein. The heavens were created first, then the Earth, as proved in Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7. The word "beginning," refers to the dateless past when there was as yet no material universe, or the heavens and the Earth could not be spoken of as being created or brought into existence at that time. There was as yet no day and night, and no time on the Earth or in heaven, for they were not yet created. Whether there was day and night or times and seasons where God lived before that, is not stated, and all speculation is valueless as to proof of the fact one way or another.

The word created is from the Hebrew bara, meaning to create, to make new or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. This latter idea is certainly true of the materials out of which the heavens and the Earth were formed. In Heb. 11:3 we read that the "things which are seen [the visible things] were not made of things that do appear" or that were visible. If the heavens and the Earth were brought into existence, then it is certain that at one time they were not in existence. Bara is found forty nine times in the Hebrew Bible, and is translated create eight times, created thirty-three times, make four times; creator three times; and createth one time.

The primary idea is to bring into existence something new, even if the something new is to be made out of already existing material. Perfection is generally implied, and is always implied when anything is a creation of God.

Moses said, "His work is perfect" (Deut. 32:4, and David said, "His way is perfect" (2 Sam. 22:31). Solomon said that God "made everything beautiful in His time (Eccl. 3:11. In fact a perfect God would not make or create anything imperfect.

Bara is used only seven times in Gen. 1:1-24, the passage that records all the creative ages. It is correctly translated created in each case. In all the other verses of this passage the word made is used. It is from the Hebrew word asah, meaning to make something out of already existing material.

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God created a perfect Earth, then destroyed it and everything therein,  because of sin and rebellion.

Moses’ teaching on the overthrow of the Pre-Adamite world.
In Gen 1:2 we have the fact that the Earth was in existence before the Spirit of God began to move, (brood) upon the face of the waters which covered the Earth. The conjunction “and” is used to connect about 200 separate acts of God in Gen. 1 and 2. These acts are all equally independent and important. Verse 2 is as independent of verse 1 as are all other separate acts of God in these two chapters. In verse 1 we have the original creation of the heavens and the Earth, and in verse 2, we have the original perfect Earth made chaos and flooded with water which destroyed all lifeon the Earth.
The word “was” in verse 2 is from the Hebrew bayah, which is a verb to become, not the verb to be. It is translated became 67 times (Gen. 2:7; 19:26; 20:12; 24:67; Ex. 4:3-4; Num. 12:10; ect.); becamest (1 Chron. 17:22; Ezek. 16:8) ; came and  came to pass 505 times (Gen. 4:3; 6:1, 4; 11:2, 5; etc.) become 66 times (Gen. 3:22; 18:18; 48:19; etc.) come (and come to pass 131 times (Gen. 4:14; 6:13; 18-20; 27:40 etc.); and many times be in the sense of become (Gen. 1:3, 6, 9, 14: 3:5; etc.).
The phrase without form is from the Hebrew tohu, which means waste, desolation, or confusion. It is translated wast (Deut. 32:10); without form (Gen.1:2, Jer.4:23); vain (Isa. 45:18; 1 Sam. 12:21); confusion Isa. 24:10; 34:11; 41:29); empty (Job 26:7); vanity (Isa. 40:17, 23; 44:9; 59:4); nothing (Job. 6:18; Isa. 40:17); and wilderness (Job 12:24; Ps. 107:40).

It can be seen from these passages what the word really means and what the condition of the Earth was in Gen. 1:2. God did not originally create the Earth in such a waste and ruined state. It is definitely stated in Isa. 45:18 that God did not create the Earth tohu (vain, or desolate), yet in Gen 1:2 the Earth was tohu. If the Earth was not originally created desolate, then it must have been created, inhabited, and later became desolate. Even the English verb “was” proves that it had to become desolate before it could be desolate.
The Hebrew word for void is bohu, which means empty, ruin or void. It is translated viod (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23) and emptiness (Isa. 34:11). The Hebrew phrase tohu va bohu (wast and ruin, or desolate and empty) describes the chaotic conditions of the Earth since “the beginning” and before the six days of the reconstruction of Gen. 1:3-2:25. God did not create the Earth a ruin or a wast. It became so because of sin.
We can read Gen. 1:1-2 literally thus:

“In the beginning [by periods, ages] God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth became waste and ruin [desolate and empty]; and darkness was upon the face of the waters.” In these verses we have the whole span of the creative ages taking in all the original creation of the heavens and the Earth and all things therein to the six days of restoration of the Earth to a habitable state. The original creations include the sun, moon, and stars.
In these two verses alone we have the facts that in the dateless past God created the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars, and then the Earth; that the heavens, were created before the Earth;  the waters; and that the darkness were all created before the spirit began to brood over the waters; and that these things were already in existence before the first of the six days, proving that they were not created in any one of those days.

How long the Earth was a waste and a ruin or desolate and empty since its original habitation is not known. How long it was in existence and inhabited before it became desolate and empty is not known, but why and when it was cursed and became desolate and empty is known and clearly revealed in Scripture. In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1:2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

The fact that Moses by inspiration said that God told Adam, to multiply and replenish the Earth proves that there was a social system on the Earth before Adam, for he could not replenish something that had been plenished before. Some argue that the Hebrew word for replenish means fill and not refill, but this proves nothing. An examination of all the places where the word replenish is used disproves this. Suppose we make the word replenish mean plenish in Gen. 9:1; Isa. 2:6; 23:2; Jer. 31:25; Ezek. 26:2; 27:25, and note the results. Where the Hebrew word mala is translated fill, it does not mean that the thing referred to had never been filled before. For example, when Joseph commanded his bretheren to “fill their sacks,” does this mean that those sack had never been filled before? They had no doubt been filled many times. See Gen. 42:25; 44:1; 1 Kings 18:33; Hag. 2:7 etc. To say, “Fill that glass with water” does not prove that ithad never been filled before, but to say, “Refill that glass with water” proves that it had been filled before. When God said to Noah, “be fruitfull and multiply, and replenish the earth” Gen. 9:1, it is clear that the Earth had been plenished before, so why not believe that God meant the same thing when He said it to Adam? The same Hebrew statement is found in both passages (Gen. 1;28; 9:1),and it is translated exactly the same in English, so would it be wrong to believe that it means the same thing? If the Earth had been plenished before Adam, then it was overthrown by judgment before the six days, as is shown in Gen.1;2.

[BeyondET]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

God, created a perfect earth the first time back in the dateless past.

Hundreds of Scriptures prove this beyond doubt, all we need do is read them, let it sink in, and believe what we read.

 

God is not the author of chaos or confusion, God does not create anything inferior, broken, ruined, flooded, and then fixes it as He goes along.

 

Blotting out the sun, and brining on floods are not acts of creation.

 

In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1;2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

  Undoubtedly, God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care and time as the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures. In the work of the six days, it is stated that God formed with His hands each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13).

It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear that God FORMED all things with His hands. (God FORMED  both light and darkness (Isa. 45:7). He did not do this in the first day of Gen. 1:3-5, for at that time He merely divided them.

Therefore they must have been created and formed before the first day.
 

I’m a bit confused on the light being formed before Gen1:3 Let there Be Light.

 let there be light twice, once before day 1 and again after, that seems hypothetical. farther seems unlikely finished then cursed rebuilt finished again.

gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Edited January 4, 2021 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, SONshine said:

Maybe it refers to Jesus?  He is the Light of the world.  Something to ponder for sure. 

Well was Jesus there when God said let there be light? I’ll post a script to ponder.

john 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[BeyondET]

11 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Yes!

John 1 is referring to Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity.  Jesus is the Word.

Life to Light Light to Life

[abcdef]

On 1/3/2021 at 8:43 PM, HAZARD said:

God, created a perfect earth the first time back in the dateless past.

 

Ex 20:11, "For in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day:...."

You are saying that it took more than six days.

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Here might be an example,

A man wants to build a steel pole barn for his farming equipment.

He calls a company and they deliver the pieces.

It takes him 3 months to assemble the pieces into a finished barn.

Then a child asks him, "How long does it take to make a pole barn.

The farmer says that it takes 3 months.

Then the child asks, "You mean that it only took 3 months to make the iron ore into steel sheets that are coated? It only took 3 months to mine the limestone and make it into cement? It only took 3 months to make the glass windows and doors?"

The farmer said, "Well, I didn't really count that time when you asked how long it took to make the barn. If you include the time it took to make the parts, then it would take a much longer time than three months. It took me 3 months to assemble the parts to finish the barn, but it took much longer if you count the time it took to make the parts."

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You seem to be saying that it took six days to put together the parts that formed earth. But you are not counting the days that you say took place before that, that it took to make the parts for the assembly.

If the parts to make the earth were already created/made, then that would cause the time that the earth was "made" (Ex20:11) to be more than six days.

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Then some play with the words "create/recreate".

If you say that a universe/planet was created before the six days, it is like saying that the farmer got the parts for the barn, assembled them into a finished barn, tore the structure down, and then rebuilt it.

If someone asked him how long it took to to bring the barn to it's finished assembly,

The farmer would have to say, "It took me 7 months. It took me 3 months to put the pieces together and finish the 1st barn,one month to tear it down, and then another 3 months to put it back up."

It didn't really take him 3 months to assemble the finished 2nd barn, because he was required to build and tear down the 1st barn.

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God made the heaven and earth in six days, Ex 20:11.

Not 7, 8, 9, or more.

[abcdef]

On 1/3/2021 at 12:26 PM, BeyondET said:

I find Gen 1:2 quite compelling, it seems the earth was still an object but formless and void, if not why did the writer present earth as something yet void and formless.

When it says that the earth was formless and void, it means that there was no material earth made at that time.

The heavens and earth were not created yet.

There was only the eternal darkness of the deep, the waters on the face of the deep, and God's eternal throne.

 

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

When it says that the earth was formless and void, it means that there was no material earth made at that time.

The heavens and earth were not created yet.

There was only the eternal darkness of the deep, the waters on the face of the deep, and God's eternal throne.

 

I believe God created every Atom that makes up the earth, and He knew where they were and that they would be formed in what we know of as earth.

like knowing every hair on ones head so are the Atoms in the whole universe, void and formless is simply not in a human visual form that can be viewed by the naked eye. i think things like creation was given by what man could see in those times, Atoms was not one of them. A Hydrogen Atom is apart of water 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, hydrogen being the most abundant element in the universe. I believe the waters mentioned in the creation account has something to do with hydrogen.

Edited January 12, 2021 by BeyondET

[abcdef]

On 1/12/2021 at 2:25 PM, BeyondET said:

I believe God created every Atom that makes up the earth, and He knew where they were and that they would be formed in what we know of as earth.

Yes

 

On 1/12/2021 at 2:25 PM, BeyondET said:

like knowing every hair on ones head so are the Atoms in the whole universe,

Yes

On 1/12/2021 at 2:25 PM, BeyondET said:

void and formless is simply not in a human visual form that can be viewed by the naked eye.

Outer space is seen at night, that is the great void, the darkness of the deep.

Imagine the night sky without the moon and stars, etc., empty, that is reality.

There is, simply, only eternal God and souls, the eternal void of space, and created material. 

In the beginning, there was only God and the void, the material creation is decaying and will be gone.

They will fly away, Dan 2:35, "...;and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them; ..."

Rev 20:11, "..., from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Then the void of space will be empty. Your eternal soul will either be with God, or in the eternal void darkness of the deep (outer darkness).

Travel in any direction, as far as you want, 100 billion years at 10 times the speed of light, there is nothing but void. 

You can see the great void, just go outside, look up and see it as people have done for thousands of years.

 

On 1/12/2021 at 2:25 PM, BeyondET said:

i think things like creation was given by what man could see in those times, Atoms was not one of them. A Hydrogen Atom is apart of water 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, hydrogen being the most abundant element in the universe. I believe the waters mentioned in the creation account has something to do with hydrogen.

God created the water and air (firmaments/atmospheres/elements) that we know now, from the waters that existed before light was created.

The details concerning what the composition of the "waters" were, before they were divided into the elements that we know now, are not given.

It is possible, that the waters that are shown before light was created were entirely spiritual and not any material as we know it.

Creating light and the elements from the spiritual realm.

The science of the material world will not be able to explain it.

[BeyondET]

On 1/16/2021 at 8:27 PM, abcdef said:

Yes

 

Yes

Outer space is seen at night, that is the great void, the darkness of the deep.

Imagine the night sky without the moon and stars, etc., empty, that is reality.

There is, simply, only eternal God and souls, the eternal void of space, and created material. 

In the beginning, there was only God and the void, the material creation is decaying and will be gone.

They will fly away, Dan 2:35, "...;and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them; ..."

Rev 20:11, "..., from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Then the void of space will be empty. Your eternal soul will either be with God, or in the eternal void darkness of the deep (outer darkness).

Travel in any direction, as far as you want, 100 billion years at 10 times the speed of light, there is nothing but void. 

You can see the great void, just go outside, look up and see it as people have done for thousands of years.

 

God created the water and air (firmaments/atmospheres/elements) that we know now, from the waters that existed before light was created.

The details concerning what the composition of the "waters" were, before they were divided into the elements that we know now, are not given.

It is possible, that the waters that are shown before light was created were entirely spiritual and not any material as we know it.

Creating light and the elements from the spiritual realm.

The science of the material world will not be able to explain it.

well the universe is vast outside our local galaxy, the void mentioned in scripture is referenced to earth, gen 1:2 says now the earth was formless and void the passage doesn’t say the universe was formless and void but the formless void earth was formed from the waters.

darkness was over the surface of the deep, the surface deep which is something, the (surface) of the deep and the (surface) of the waters was substance. Earth being formless and void until dry land appears and given the name earth.

 

the part about cast into the deep of space, scripture mentions there is a everlasting fire.

Edited January 19, 2021 by BeyondET