Is God Responsible?

[David1701]

13 hours ago, Logostician said:

You have questions about free will vs predestination.  Many people seem to think you have to choose one or the other.  I don't.  I think God gave us free will to choose him because only this is an act of true love, as when husbands and wives choose each other.  Forcing us to him would take true love out the picture, and potentially force those who didn't love to come to him anyway.  God is love, and love does not force.  It draws. 

1) Free will (in the sense of Libertarian Free Will, which is how most freewillers mean it) and biblical predestination, are mutually exclusive.

2) In many times and cultures, arranged marriages were the norm.  They learned to love each other, as they got to know each other.

3) Love does indeed draw; and you cannot be said to have been drawn, unless you come.  In other words, God's drawing is effectual.  If you drew a crowd, then a crowd came.  If you draw a sword, then the sword has left its scabbard.  If you drew the curtains, then the curtains were closed, etc., etc..

John 6:36-39 (MKJV)

 36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
  37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
  38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
  39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.

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1 Jno 4:16

God is love.  And he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God.  And God in him 

Predestination works for me in the sense that God sees all things past, present, and future.  He knows we will be saved before we even ask.  He knows who has a heart for him and will provide a way for them to come to him, while still leaving the choice to them.

 

This is your philosophy (the part I've underlined); but it is not what the Bible says.

No unregenerate sinner has a heart for God, quite the opposite in fact.

Rom. 3:10-19 (MKJV)

 10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
  11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
  12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
  13 "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
  14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;"
  15 "their feet are swift to shed blood;
  16 destruction and misery are in their way,
  17 and the way of peace they did not know."
  18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 

  19 But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God,

The Bible says that salvation is by grace, through faith and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.  The Bible never says that salvation is based on sinful man's choice - never.

Eph. 2:8-10 (MKJV)

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
  10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. 

 

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As with salvation for those who love God, and are saved, I see the same free will and predestinational knowledge of God working in those that will not be saved.  God says he should be known by all the things he created.  But even with this obvious knowledge men harden their hearts against him, and choose any false narrative they can think of other than the true creator God.  It says God gives them up to the sin and lusts they have already formed in their own hearts.  There is no love in these hardened hearts.  These people have hardened their own hearts against God of their own free will.  But God does not force them to come to him because true love cannot be forced.  He allows them to fall of their own free will.  It is predestined because he knows it will happen and allows it to happen..

Predestination is not the same thing as omniscience!  Predestination is deciding the destiny of people in advance.  The fact that a person has been predestined to salvation is the reason why he is given repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

Of course God does not force people to come to him.  Force implies overcoming resistance and, when God makes a person born again, he does not resist - he wants to turn from sin to God and he wants to follow Jesus.

Ez. 36:26,27 (MKJV)

26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
  27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.

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I don't know everything.  This is just what I think.  I'm sure I'm wrong or overly simplistic about alot of things.  But I know Jesus is my Lord.  And I love him, and he loves me.  And that's what's really important.

Keep searching God.  It's time well spent.

 

Please go by what the Bible says, not your opinions. 

Freewillism is idolatry.  It turns God into a helpless hand-wringer, watching from heaven, to see if his creatures will use their allegedly sovereign free will, to bring themselves into repentance and faith.  It turns man into the master of his own destiny and leaves God thwarted in his supposed desire to save every person.  It is quite sickening to see God so blasphemed.

So-called "free" will is one of the worst banes in the Church.  It drags God down and elevates sinful man.  It makes man the deciding factor in salvation and makes his sinful will the thing that causes one to differ from another, giving him room to boast.

1 Cor. 4:7 (MKJV) For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Edited January 16, 2021 by David1701
typo

[David1701]

54 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

I always  wonder why people think that God might not be fair.

We have all sinned, we are all deserving of hell, and if God was fair, we would all be hell bound

But God is Just, Graceful and Merciful

The gift of Jesus was given so that the books could be balanced, there was a debt to pay for man sin. Payable by the guilty with their life, or payable by the innocent, Jesus, for everyone's life. This gift God has given us is more than fair

Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve, Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve.  Again much more than fair.

All of this can be packed under one Word.   Love.

God loves us all, and would that all be saved

1 Timothy 2  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But it is the nature of love that it it cannot be forced on anyone.  And THIS is where our choice comes in. If we reject God then re reject his Mercy and Grace, and we are left with HIS Justness, and He will judge those who reject Him and He will find them wanting, as we are all wanting.

So I for one am very glad that God is not "fair", because otherwise I would be hell bound

 

Much of this is good; but you have removed the Scripture you quoted from its context.

1 Tim. 2:1-4 (MKJV)

1 First of all, then, I exhort that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
  2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
  3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
  4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In verse 1, we see that "all men" refers to "all kinds of men" (it obviously does not refer to every individual, because then the prayer meetings would never end).

In verse 2, we see that "all men" refers to categories (kings and those in authority), not individuals.

In verse 4, now that we have the context, we can see that "all men" refers to all categories of men, not every individual.  If it meant that God will have every single person to be saved, then either God would be unable to bring about his good pleasure, or he would be a liar.

We must not introduce interpretations of Scripture that conflict with the immediate context, nor that conflict with other vital doctrines, especially if the necessary consequences would be blasphemous.

[missmuffet]

On 10/21/2020 at 7:09 AM, East Sky said:

Hello everyone! First, I have an update. I have come back to Christ and chosen to serve Him as my Lord and Savior. However, I don't understand something. 

 

In Romans 9:18-19, Paul addresses the fact that God as able to do anything He pleases, and that includes showing mercy, or turning people against Him. If God is in charge of all of this, how come we are held accountable. I thought everyone had to give an account for THEIR own actions. Some might even say that God isn't fair. His Judgement is Righteous and Fair, right? But let's look at verse 19. . it basically says that we have no right to question our God. Which we don't. But this bothers me. I don't want to question God, but what about the people He has not chosen? Are they responsible? Are they on the road to Hell? 

 

This is very unsettling to think of God as unfair, for then that would make Him unperfect, and we know that God is perfect in all His Ways. But now, I'm starting to doubt that. Can someone please explain this?

 

My Prayer

Father God, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. There are many things I don't understand about You, but I know this one thing, You Love me. Well. . I'm starting to doubt that now. I have so many questions and they're not making trusting and Invisible God any easier. All I have is Your Word, and even that is starting to become unclear. If You are angry at my questions, Lord, I'm so sorry for asking them. I truly have no right to question You. I'm reminded of Job, who wanted to speak with You about his Life. You demonstrated Your Power and Amazing Glory to him. Please do the same with me, if needed. I don't want to be proud in Your Presence. And I have no right, whatsoever to bombard the throneroom with things like these. If You wish to wait or even not answer them, so be it Lord. Your Will for my life is as perfect as can be. Please, all I ask is that You help me to continue to trust You and that I may be found worthy and chosen of You. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Every one has an opportunity to become a Christian. All a person needs to do is ask Jesus Christ into their life to be their Lord and Savior. God does not just choose a few. 

[David1701]

21 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Every one has an opportunity to become a Christian. All a person needs to do is ask Jesus Christ into their life to be their Lord and Savior. God does not just choose a few. 

What is it, in the heart of sinful man, that would ask Jesus into his life, to be Lord and Saviour?  Answer: absolutely nothing!

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel).  He hates the light and will not come to it.  He is hostile towards God and cannot please him.  Need I go on?  It's called Original Sin and is believed by every major branch of Christianity.

This is why the Lord himself told Nicodemus that we MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the kingdom of God.  Our vile nature must be changed, by God, FIRST, then we will repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  This is obviously not given to everyone.  This is an essential part of the gospel.

Ez. 36:26,27 (MKJV)

 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
  27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.

Freewillism is not the gospel.  It is man's pride at work, taking glory to himself for who is saved and who is not.

[missmuffet]

35 minutes ago, David1701 said:

What is it, in the heart of sinful man, that would ask Jesus into his life, to be Lord and Saviour?  Answer: absolutely nothing!

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel).  He hates the light and will not come to it.  He is hostile towards God and cannot please him.  Need I go on?  It's called Original Sin and is believed by every major branch of Christianity.

This is why the Lord himself told Nicodemus that we MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the kingdom of God.  Our vile nature must be changed, by God, FIRST, then we will repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  This is obviously not given to everyone.  This is an essential part of the gospel.

Ez. 36:26,27 (MKJV)

 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
  27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.

Freewillism is not the gospel.  It is man's pride at work, taking glory to himself for who is saved and who is not.

This verse says it all.

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is a choice everyone on this earth needs to make. Do I want to spend my eternity in heaven or in hell?

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by missmuffet

[Marathoner]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

This verse says it all.

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is a choice everyone on this earth needs to make. Do I want to spend my eternity in heaven or in hell?

 

Clearly this passage is misunderstood by many who exalt man as the arbiter of his estate, endowing him with judgment which he neither possesses nor can claim for himself. If this were true then the words of the Lord are made void when He said, "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). 

No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) and no one can come to the Father apart from His Son (John 14:6). Christ will lose no one whom the Father gives to Him (John 6:39); indeed, the Son of the living God will raise him up on the last day (John 6:40). 

Faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8), not something which man claims for himself. Again, this would make man responsible for salvation which he is not. The harmony of the scriptures makes this abundantly clear but this isn't an obstacle to some who wish to exalt man as the righteous judge, usurping the authority of the Lord and thus engaging in idolatry. 

[missmuffet]

Many people hear the call of God coming through His revelation of Himself through creation, the conscience, and the preaching of the Word. But only the “few” will respond because they are the ones who are truly hearing. Jesus said many times, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35). The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding. Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the “few” who have ears to hear. The “many” hear, but there is no interest or there is outright antagonism toward God. Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own. God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

[Riverwalker]

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

Much of this is good; but you have removed the Scripture you quoted from its context.

1 Tim. 2:1-4 (MKJV)

1 First of all, then, I exhort that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
  2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
  3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
  4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In verse 1, we see that "all men" refers to "all kinds of men" (it obviously does not refer to every individual, because then the prayer meetings would never end).

In verse 2, we see that "all men" refers to categories (kings and those in authority), not individuals.

In verse 4, now that we have the context, we can see that "all men" refers to all categories of men, not every individual.  If it meant that God will have every single person to be saved, then either God would be unable to bring about his good pleasure, or he would be a liar.

We must not introduce interpretations of Scripture that conflict with the immediate context, nor that conflict with other vital doctrines, especially if the necessary consequences would be blasphemous.

I do believe you are the one introducing interpretations. The very fist lesson of bible college we were told that when the bible says all, it means all. There is no "Kinds of Men"mention or implied here, what there is , is all men.  He would that ALL would be saved. given his choice.  But it is not His choice....it is ours. He makes available to "who so ever would believe"

 

and verse 1 and vs 2 are not separate, they are one thought a literary tool  where the mention of three reinforces the meaning of all  " for all men,  2 for kings and all who are in authority" 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Riverwalker]

9 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, that verse does not say it all, That verse does not say, "It is a choice," much less "Salvation is a choice all need to make." Are those who do not believe believers? 

 

We choose salvation when we believe

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We  We CHOOSE to believe, then we are made righteous.  We Confess our belief then we are saved

 

the calvinist belief that some are chosen to be believers and some are chosen to go to hell, is just wrong

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

 

there is that word ALL again

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Riverwalker

[David1701]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

This verse says it all.

John 3:16

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is a choice everyone on this earth needs to make. Do I want to spend my eternity in heaven or in hell?

 

This verse says what all?  It says nothing about believing in Jesus Christ being by sinful man's choice, does it?

God loved the world like this: he gave his one-of-a-kind Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

There is no freewillism in this verse - none.  It does not even address the question of the moral ability, or inability, of fallen man.