The Grahams

[teddyv]

1 minute ago, BeauJangles said:

More or less. There are enough similarities in these cultish groups to give them room to fit in the same box. 

What Is the Difference Between Christian Universalism and ...

https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/unitarian

Some Unitarian Universalists may believe in these things, but many do not. Each UU church is different depending on the beliefs of the congregation and the minister. Some UU churches contain a large number of Christian Universalists, and others are more oriented toward non-Christian religions or secular humanism. UU churches can be a good place ...

But Scientologists are not even remotely Christian in heritage. It's just a made-up fantasy religion by Hubbard.

[BeauJangles]

11 minutes ago, teddyv said:

But Scientologists are not even remotely Christian in heritage. It's just a made-up fantasy religion by Hubbard.

If you want to begin splitting hairs with the side topic here, do you think that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians? It wasn't many decades ago when they rang your doorbell and asked if they were, they were adamant in stating they were NOT Christians. Now they do? You be the judge on that one and give me a jingle. We'll chat Christian cult history back and forth. I've been around a lot of years. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by BeauJangles

[teddyv]

Just now, BeauJangles said:

If we want to begin splitting hairs with the side topic here, do you think that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians? It wasn't many decades ago when they rang your doorbell and asked them if they were, they were very adamant in stating they were NOT Christians. Now they do? You be the judge on that one and give me a jingle on it. We'll chat cult history back and forth. I've been around a lot of years. 

Please note I said Christian in heritage - i.e. they were spawned out of the traditional Christian religion. Mormon's invoke Jesus Christ right in their church's name so, yes, they have Christian heritage. Jehovah's Witnesses use Jehovah, a very (latinized) name of the Jewish and Christian God. Are they doctrinally part of Christianity? No.

Church of Scientology are the imaginations of L. Ron Hubbard and have no traditional basis in Christianity but in science fiction. I don't presume to know the intricate beliefs of this cult, but a cursory reading does not suggest a concept of universalism, certainly in the context of how it is understood within the framework of Christianity.

You did mention Christian Scientists but they are not the same as Scientologists, so perhaps that is where any confusion stems on my part.

[BeauJangles]

7 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Please note I said Christian in heritage - i.e. they were spawned out of the traditional Christian religion. Mormon's invoke Jesus Christ right in their church's name so, yes, they have Christian heritage. Jehovah's Witnesses use Jehovah, a very (latinized) name of the Jewish and Christian God. Are they doctrinally part of Christianity? No.

Church of Scientology are the imaginations of L. Ron Hubbard and have no traditional basis in Christianity but in science fiction. I don't presume to know the intricate beliefs of this cult, but a cursory reading does not suggest a concept of universalism, certainly in the context of how it is understood within the framework of Christianity.

You did mention Christian Scientists but they are not the same as Scientologists, so perhaps that is where any confusion stems on my part.

As I mentioned, if you wish continuance of terminology dissections outside of the topic continue on without me. Or not. No, wait. Let me allow you the win. You're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. There. Are you happy now?  

And have a nice day! 

[teddyv]

2 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

As I mentioned, if you wish continuance of terminology dissections outside of the topic continue on without me. Or not. No, wait. Let me allow you the win. You're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. There. Are you happy now?  

Sorry. I was simply surprised that you included Scientologists as Universalists. That is simply what I was curious about. I don't have need for discussing it further. I recognize it's off topic, but then 90% of threads go off topic at some point.

Quote

And have a nice day! 

Likewise.

[Marathoner]

A brother once remarked how some, called by the Lord in a mighty way, fell to the wayside after the passage of time. What better example do we have than many of the kings of Judah and Israel presented to us in the scriptures, men like Saul who were anointed by the Lord? The time came when Saul started engaging in wickedness and so the kingship was taken from him and given to another.

The Lord knew this would come to pass because nothing is hidden from His sight.  

I agree that it is wise to refrain from judging Billy Graham though we should certainly guard ourselves against the worldliness which started settling in later in his life. Any one of us can believe that we're arrived and thus know a great deal... the spectacle of our fall proves otherwise. 

[BeauJangles]

4 hours ago, teddyv said:

Please note I said Christian in heritage - i.e. they were spawned out of the traditional Christian religion. Mormon's invoke Jesus Christ right in their church's name so, yes, they have Christian heritage.

Okay, since the Billy Graham topic is totally out of the sphere in the convo, just a little highlighter for you on how Mormonism has a false Jesus which means false Christianity. You do have a good eye for the falsehood of the Jehovah's Witnesses, however. Not half bad.

Here's a little reading material of sources for you. 

 

 

Top Mormon Official Admits Mormonism is a Fake Religion ...

https://newslo.com/top-mormon-official-admits-mormonism-is-a-fake-religion

Top Mormon Official Admits Mormonism is a Fake Religion. SALT LAKE CITY – A member of the first presidency of the Mormon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as the Mormon Church) today publicly admitted that the entire religion was completely bogus, and that the church hierarchy has been making things up for the past 200 years.

The MORMON Religion EXPOSED! - Jesus-is-Savior.com

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Mormons/exposed.htm

Mormonism denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Mormonism teaches that a person must be baptized to go to Heaven. Mormonism is a sexually degenerate cult that is known for pedophilia and abuse. There are many more links down below. Mormonism has the wrong jesus, not the Jesus of the Bible Who is Almighty God (John 10:33; Revelation 1:8).

Are Mormons Christian? What Do They Believe About Jesus?

https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/are...

Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a religion for sure but there are a lot of false religions in the world.   Mormons believe in Jesus but what exactly do they believe about Him and His origins?   They believe that Jesus is the brother of Satan …

A logical proof that Mormonism is false | CARM.org

https://carm.org/mormonism/logical-proof-that-mormonism-is-false

by Matt Slick. Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world, (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321) and that he became a god (this is called exaltation, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354) and came to this world with his goddess wife. He was able to become a god because he followed the laws and ordinances of the god he served on another world.

Mormonism and Christianity: Beliefs, Rules, and Facts ...

https://www.livingscriptures.com/blog/mormonism

The Mormonism doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is different from other Christian religions. I agree with that. But what’s more agreeable is that the doctrine taught in Mormonism is consistent with early Christianity, that Joseph Smith …

 

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

You be the judge on that one and give me a jingle.

That would be sublime...give BeauJangles a jingle. 

[BeauJangles]

50 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

That would be sublime...give BeauJangles a jingle. 

 Must have been one of those "Freudian Slips" and subconscious puns. This just now gave me a lol. Thanks! haha!

  

     

   

[Guest]

Billy Graham's Teachings

Billy Graham has been an instrument of God for the salvation of thousands.  Who could doubt the great impact he has had for the expansion of the Heavenly Kingdom?  His countless sermons have consistently referred to Jesus being the only way.  His messages have been biblical and Christ centered.  So, when we hear of someone calling him a heretic, we need to be slow to consider such an accusation.  But we should not shy away from examining him or anyone.  We need to compare what he teaches with scripture -- even as the noble Bereans did with Paul's teaching (Acts 17:11).

In the following video, on May 31, 1997, on the Hour of Power television program titled "Say 'Yes' To Possibility Thinking," program #1426, Robert Schuller interviewed Billy Graham. What Mr. Graham said in the video is alarming.  The following is transcribed starting at 1:20 into the video. (See the Video)

"I think everybody that that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And that's what God is doing today.  He's calling people for 'eh, out of the the world for his name whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world uh they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but uh they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light that they have. And I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven".

Is Mr. Graham saying that God calls people only through Jesus, and that those people are found everywhere; or is he saying that people can be saved without believing on Jesus?  If it is the former, his words are not clear.  If it is the latter, then his words are heretical and he is teaching false doctrine.  So, I have to ask a couple questions:

1. How does someone love Christ if he is not conscious of it?  That idea cannot be found in scripture.  In fact, it contradicts scripture.
   1. The Bible says there is no other name by which a person may be saved (Acts 4:12).
   2. The Bible says that "there is none who does understands.  There is none who seeks for God" (Romans 3:11).
   3. "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14).
2. How does someone become a member of the body of Christ (i.e., be saved), if he is not conscious of who Christ is?  What Billy Graham is teaching is simply wrong.
   1. The Bible says that people need to confess Christ (Rom. 10:9-10) and receive him (John 1:12).  This is what we must go with, not some feel-good ideology.
   2. Also, we are not talking about babies who die or those who are aborted.  Certainly God can save them, as it would seem, without their conscious awareness of Christ.  But this is not the context of which Billy Graham is speaking.

I am going to give Mr. Graham the benefit of the doubt.  After so many years of him preaching that Jesus is the only way to salvation, I find it hard to believe that he is saying people are saved by a sincere hope, or, as he said, "they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light that they have."  This is a nice sentiment, but it isn't biblical.  Consider the following verses:

• "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).
• "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man," (Mark 7:21-23).
• "As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one. 11 There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good. There is not even one,'" (Rom. 3:10-12).
• "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest," (Eph. 2:1-3).

Sorry Mr. Graham, but you contradicted God's word.

As indelicate as it might be to ask, is Mr. Graham's error the result of old age; or is this error something that he has taught before?  Consider the following spoken by Graham in 1978:

"I used to play God, but I can’t do that anymore. I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost – were going to hell – if they did not have the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God – through nature, for instance – and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying “yes” to God. ( James Michael Beam, "I Can’t Play God Anymore," McCall’s (January 1978): 158, as cited in a pdf by Kurt A. Edwards in a Dissertation for Doctor of Philosophy at the Bowling Green State University: http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi/Edwards/20Kurt/20Alexander.pdf?bgsu1212785421 on pages 65-66.

Clearly Graham taught heresy in 1978.  Pagans without the gospel are not saved.  We do not find God through nature - which is why we have the Scriptures and the preaching of the Gospel.  Billy Graham's sentiment is worldly and not biblical.  It is a shame that he is teaching this false doctrine.

Source: Billy Graham