The beasts of Revelation 13 - Interpreted and identified.

[abcdef]

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

I just don't see it as an important point. I could be wrong, been wrong before, will be again.

To clarify the beasts represent the great kingdoms in question. This is well established in Daniel. When we see the beast looks like a leopard with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion we can deduce it's the amalgamation of the first three beasts in Dan 7 and they are kingdom powers.

The Dan 7 images clearly state that they are 4 different kingdoms.

The symbolism describing the beasts shows their attributes as nations and not necessarily their origins.

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

But in Rev 13 it's not the beast that is wounded, it's one of the heads. This head is an individual ruling over the Amalgamated Beast Power. 

This does not prove that it is speaking of an individual. It is speaking about the transforming of the beast nation at the end of it's natural national lifetime.

The heads represent the lifetime of the nation (Rome).

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. "

Symbolic

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

So the leopard, lion, bear beast is a great power emanating from a kingdom and the heads are the rulers.

Yes, but not exclusively 7 rulers. The heads are only images of all the rulers.

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

That the head that was wounded and revived and is also called a beast does not equate the head with the fact of a great and powerful landed empire. It's a wild animal ruling over a kingdom with common origins.

Yes

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

That is a common denominator but not it's not said this is the main clue to sleuth this out. It's a fact but scripture doesn't call our attention to this. Scripture does call our attention to the succession of Kingdoms that all ruled from Babylon in Mesopotamia. Nebuchadnezzar ruled from Babylon. The several Persian kings and Median kings also ruled from Babylon. After Alexander defeated the Persians he moved the capitol to Babylon, where he died.  This is well recorded history. Then who ruled from Babylon? Seleucid.

But then came Rome.

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

Interesting to note is that the end time beast, antichrist, is called the Assyrian. Assyria was a vast empire under Ashurbanipal which included Iraq and hence, Babylon.

"Latter" just means "later". It is not some secret code that means the end of time, or something like that.

It just means sometime after the writing of the prophecy.

Why not keep the Antichrist of Greece, Antiochus, in the context of Daniel instead of trying to jump 2500 years into the future?

 

On 3/4/2021 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

  Maybe. I just don't see it. The point of regional emphasis in scripture is in Mesopotamia in general and Israel and Jerusalem in particular in eschatological terms.

Put Jerusalem and Israel first, instead of second.

[abcdef]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

Not abandoned, appropriate. Dan 2, 7 and 8 are end of the age passages

Which age? The end of the temple age? The end of the Law age? The end of Jerusalem age? There are many different points at which different ages end.

You are just assuming, for some reason, that it is speaking of the end of the planet? age?

Which end end of the age do you think that it is?

 

On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

holding important information on the risen beast, his empire and characteristics. The actions of this beast and the succession of beasts are centered in the Levant and the attention of the end time dictator is focused on Israel. It's well said they all ruled over Israel because they did. While that is not major interpretive criteria it is a fact.

But it is a major factor, if not the primary one.

 

On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

But in Daniel 2, 7 and 8 Jerusalem and Israel are not mentioned.

Dan 2, centers on the restoration of the people of Israel to Jerusalem.

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel's control.

Dan 7 and 8, are about the nations that rule the people of Israel, centered on Jerusalem. All history of Greece and Persia before 70 AD..

 

On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

The overthrow of the Temple ritual is mentioned, not to change the focus, but as a prophetic identifier. The work of these chapters is to inform us of the look of the enemy so we can see who it is. 

In the conclusion of these utterances we see the beasts destroyed and the King of Kings ascend in supremacy along with His servants and friends, His people Israel.

The beast of Greece destroyed.

 

[abcdef]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

 

Not abandoned, appropriate. Dan 2,

In Dan 2, what is the event described as the stone striking the statue?

When does it happen? Past or future?

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:40 AM, abcdef said:

In Dan 2, what is the event described as the stone striking the statue?

When does it happen? Past or future?

 Apologies. for the late response, work work, work.

Future. I will explain.

Future is the only concept which harmonizes all the evidence extant of the return of Jesus and the gathering. We can certainly take portions of prophecy and interpret them as past occurrences, even whole chapters can be seen as fulfilled in ages past.

This exercise fails when all the truth of the eschatological matters is considered. The portions of scripture dealing with the end of the age must be taken as a whole from cover to cover of canon. And that isn't all the evidence; extrabiblical text is as inspired as canon and much can be learned there. The Koran paints a very similar picture of the end as well, but that's a digression.

The question of the 'gap' always arises. Why is there a gap? Where does scripture say there is a gap? Does it make sense there is a gap?

I don't know. It doesn't. And it doesn't.

But just because we lack insight and grasp of the concept does not make it false. When everything is considered the gap must be there even if we don't understand, maybe especially so.

 

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:38 AM, abcdef said:

Which age? The end of the temple age? The end of the Law age? The end of Jerusalem age? There are many different points at which different ages end.

You are just assuming, for some reason, that it is speaking of the end of the planet? age?

Which end end of the age do you think that it is?

I don't buy into dispensationalism. Not one single thing has changed since man was created. It's Jesus in the Garden and it's Jesus now. There is but one age and that is the administration of the earth by mankind. This is the age that will end.

On 3/8/2021 at 8:38 AM, abcdef said:

But it is a major factor, if not the primary one.

It's never brought up by the prophets as far as I know. It's a fact but not one that's key to understanding or interpretation. If it was then the demand it's Rome is pure subjectivity as several countries ruled over Israel. During the Islamic rule Jews still inhabited Israel and Jerusalem. So why isn't it Islam? Why must it be Rome?

On 3/8/2021 at 8:38 AM, abcdef said:

 

Dan 2, centers on the restoration of the people of Israel to Jerusalem.

The statue begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. The toes end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel's control.

Dan 7 and 8, are about the nations that rule the people of Israel, centered on Jerusalem. All history of Greece and Persia before 70 AD.

I would not say Dan 2 centers on that. It's more like a fragment, e.g., "nor will it be left to another people".

Dan 2 focuses on the succession of selected kingdoms and the ultimate destiny of those kingdoms in relation to the supremacy of Christ and His eternal kingdom.

Your second statement is unclear. How do you get that from Dan 2?

Dan 7 is a parallel to Dan 2 and shows us attributes of the Precious Metal kingdoms and the Iron kingdom. Remember, Islam ruled over Jerusalem when the Jews were still living in Israel and Jerusalem. The Islamic scourge is a legitimate contender for the Iron kingdom and the dreadful terrifying beast of Dan 7. The only contender in my view.

Dan 8 is in my mind about the origins of the little horn and end time dictator called the beast. This beast arises out of the Diadochi as clearly stated here:

"From one of these horns a little horn emerged"

 

 

[Justin Adams]

I will throw out a couple points here. Flavius implored Titus to un-crucify his friends. One survived. The soldiers were making sport of up to 500 per day crucifixions in and around Jerusalem after the fall. Is that not poetic justice or even a judgement?

The believers did flee to the hills and it is reported somewhere that none we lost because they followed what Yeshua had said in His warnings.
Apparently, many who were there for Passover during the fall perished as the soldiers made sport of them.

It was most devastating and the worse that had ever happened to Israel. Read Flavius' account. The temple was fired and destroyed by both the people fighting amongst themselves and the invaders. 

Prior to the fall of jerusalem, there was an ingathering that began at the Pentecost outpourings of the Spirit. Thence the world was being evangelised as the Jews returned to their foreign homes or were later scattered by Rome. The world was being overtaken by the gospel even as Jerusalem fell. The Abrahamic covenant promise was being fulfilled.

From a 'God perspective' much of what was said by Yeshua did come to pass. Maybe not the way the prophecy experts want it to sound though.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

The Dan 7 images clearly state that they are 4 different kingdoms.

The symbolism describing the beasts shows their attributes as nations and not necessarily their origins.

Not sure I get this. The lion, bear and leopard coincide with sold silver and brass in the statue. Hence the gold lion is Babylon, the silver bear is Persia, and the brass leopard is Greece. The 4th, terrifying and dreadful is the iron beast and we do not know it's identity for certain. 

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

 

This does not prove that it is speaking of an individual. It is speaking about the transforming of the beast nation at the end of it's natural national lifetime.

The heads represent the lifetime of the nation (Rome).

Maybe but I have my doubts.

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

 

Yes, but not exclusively 7 rulers. The heads are only images of all the rulers.

?

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

But then came Rome.

But Seleucid was before Rome and the transition from Greece was to the Seleucid empire, not Rome. For some 200 years it was Seleucid in the area. 

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

 

"Latter" just means "later". It is not some secret code that means the end of time, or something like that.

It just means sometime after the writing of the prophecy.

Why not keep the Antichrist of Greece, Antiochus, in the context of Daniel instead of trying to jump 2500 years into the future?

Sure. Later what? Later times. 

I do keep Antiochus IV right where he belongs. Reality is that Dan 11 follows the Seleucids from the the fall of Greece and the rise of Seleucus Nicator to Antiochus IV and the succession after him. Not once does the narrative diverge to Rome.

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, abcdef said:

Put Jerusalem and Israel first, instead of second.

I think I do that.

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:00 AM, abcdef said:

The people of Masada would disagree with you.

Masada was after 70 AD. I said the siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD was not genocide. Titus would not have taken 95,000 prisoners if it was genocide. Masada was a very different story and only happened 2-3 years later.

On 3/8/2021 at 8:00 AM, abcdef said:

 

Jesus is the prince of the people. There is no support for the meaning of the word "prince" to be changed in the passage from Jesus, to mean a person 2500 years in the future. 

If that's true then Jesus would also be the leader of the people that destroyed the Temple and the city.

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

We know this was Titus and the Roman legions prompted by the bloodlust of X Fretensis. 

And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,

Jesus confirms forever covenants.

but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

And he doesn't break them.

And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,

If Jesus is the prince in view here then Jesus is committing the A of D in 167 BC, but we know that was Antiochus IV. I don't see Dan 9:26-27 prophesying of Antiochus IV in truth; it's just to make a point

until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

Destruction is not poured out on Jesus. 

 

On 3/8/2021 at 8:00 AM, abcdef said:

 

Why did they allow them to continue? Jn 19:15, "We have no king but Caesar".

Was their worship and sacrifices acceptable after this declaration? No, their sacrifices were cut off after this statement in the eyes of God.

From OT study the sacrifices meant nothing anyway. The shekinah glory was gone from the Temple long before Jesus walked the earth in the 1st century. The Jews persisted as they are stiff necked and rebellious. The point means little in this discussion.

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:51 AM, abcdef said:

The commerce is not a proof that it is Rome, Jerusalem also had a great amount of commerce.

Not saying it's Rome or Jerusalem. It's a universal babylon of violence and greed and that multitude of merchandise will have it's seat in some vast city at the end ofthe gae of the government of man.

On 3/8/2021 at 7:51 AM, abcdef said:

 

Really? How could they not lament the fall of Jerusalem?

You mean:

And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, because there is no one left to buy their cargo

And

Every shipmaster, passenger, and sailor, and all who make their living from the sea, 

Or

where all who had ships on the sea were enriched by her wealth!

These descriptions using absolute terms of 'all' and 'every' fit no known city from the dawn of time throughout the universe. And certainly not Jerusalem. No country today has enough ports to fulfill this prophecy. 

On 3/8/2021 at 7:51 AM, abcdef said:

 

One hour? I think that you are missing the symbolism here.

I can't take most of the prophecy literally and then backtrack to say two words are symbolic. It take 30 minutes for an ICBM to be launched and find the target anywhere on earth. Much less in some cases. Any whole country could be destroyed today inside the noon hour for example. Not a stretch and easily taken literally.

On 3/8/2021 at 7:51 AM, abcdef said:

 

The Jerusalem of Jesus' time will never be seen again.

The city that exists now has the same name, but is not the same city that was destroyed by the Romans.

That city is gone forever.

What city remains the same over 20 centuries even without war? That Jerusalem still exist in any form is a testament to the eternal promises of God. Still there. Still God's city. Still the inheritance.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:41 AM, abcdef said:

 

Only because you are trying so hard to make things future, that are already history.

Only? I think that's a disservice to the scriptures.