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[JohnD]

The Apostle Paul?

By what criteria did you test this spirit (1 John 4:1)?

6 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Not one of them uses the word imputed. Esp the word imputed with righteousness. You can not add to the Bible, you can ONLY work with real words that we find in our Bible. Under the law righteousness was imputed to Abraham, but we are not under the law we are under Grace. Even the Grace of God is an active force that works in our life, just as we actually become right or righteous with God. 

I actually had a conversation with Paul himself about this very subject. Only he was answering a question I had when David talks about being good. Paul talks about being right with God. We can be good under the law but we can actually be right under Grace. Under the law righteousness is imputed. Under Grace we become righteous. We are transformed and we become a NEW Creation in Christ. 

Actually I am glad you asked because Paul just gave me a packet of understanding and you are helping me to unpack it. 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by JohnD

[JohnD]

If anyone believes we are made perfectly righteous under New Testament Grace (rather than having the imputed righteousness of Christ imputed to our individual accounts for believing in him) then why is much of the New Testament written either admonishing us not to sin, or teaching us how to deal with sin after we converted to Christ? 

[JohnD]

Just now, JohnD said:

If anyone believes we are made perfectly righteous under New Testament Grace (rather than having the imputed righteousness of Christ imputed to our individual accounts for believing in him) then why is much of the New Testament written either admonishing us not to sin, or teaching us how to deal with sin after we converted to Christ? 

It would be a terrible waste of scripture.

 

[JohnD]

Righteousness under the Old Testament Law (the sacrificial system etc) was not imputed righteousness but temporary atonement.

There were exceptions like David and Abraham (and no doubt more) but this was an old testament demonstration of new testament Grace and even then it was not enough to grant them access to heaven.

Luke 16:19-31 (the rich man and Lazarus account) calls part of sheol Abraham's Bosom (not heaven). The grave.

[JohnR7]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

If anyone believes we are made perfectly righteous under New Testament Grace (rather than having the imputed righteousness of Christ imputed to our individual accounts for believing in him) then why is much of the New Testament written either admonishing us not to sin, or teaching us how to deal with sin after we converted to Christ? 

I can see the problem now. You do not have a Bible Dictionary. Perfection in the Bible means to be mature and bear fruit. Like a tree that bears fruit.  Jesus talks about a tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and throw into the fire. 

Impute means to credit to your account. Jesus paid a debt for us that was far greater than what we could pay for ourselves. Imputed righteousness is a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ is imputed to [believers] that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith." (wiki) This is raw Calvanistic teaching. I follow the teachings of John Wesley and that is different from people like Calvin and Joseph Smith. You can believe what you want, but I do not endorse hyper - Calvinism. 

Paul asked me why I was not living righteous before God. I did not answer him. I can assure you that Paul believes we are to BE righteous. It is not just something credited to our account. Jesus is coming for a bride without spot, blemish or wrinkle. He is NOT coming for a bride dressed in rags. You have to put on the righteousness of God. 

"put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be renewed in the spirit of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:22,23,24)

This is the great commission to "teach people to obey". We were "created to be like God".  

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you". (Matthew 28: 19,20)

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

There were exceptions like David and Abraham

I learned a lot from David about the LAW of God. Esp the 119 Psalm really opened my eyes when David says: "I delight in your commands because I love them." (Psalm 119:47) I really had to study how David could love the law. Because the law was given so we could be good, right and true before God. This is different from man's law. 

Even though righteousness is a work of God in us and not something we can do apart from God. Still Jesus lived His life as an example. We are to be as He was. For example He went about preaching, teaching and healing the sick and that is what we are to do. This is why I took the teacher training class four times at the Bible college. 

[JohnD]

Acts 15 (AV)
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.