Let's get down to it, the Nitty Gritty

August 5, 2005

First of all, I think you read something into my reply which wasn't intended. I'm trying to explain to Z why this is going to be a fruitless debate.

Zayit understands what I'm saying....and I understand what she's saying....but we're misunderstood by the body at large because we read the Bible in a hebraic context (because it was written by hebrews) and most christians are reading with a hellenistic lense through an anti-semetic institutional church which controlled the debate for the last 1900 years.

And you know that it is entirely possible to be hellenistic regardless of race.

I learned Jesus was the Sabbath through my grandfather who was a former canter in Temple. He did not abandon the traditions or customs, yet upon study of the New Testament, through a conservative Jewish mind, he even came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Sabbath.

SO keep your judgement to yourself Yod, you've overstepped yourself on this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do so hope this thread can remain loving. I would love to hear more about your grandfather SJ, How did he become a believer? Did he have a gentile Christian friend praying for him? Or did he secretly study the Chadasha on his own?

August 5, 2005

Why do so many people equate the Sunday church service with the day of rest? I've seen discontent at church on numerous occassions. I would think that the most effective day of rest would be at home.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, this is also another dividing line, that Sabbath means worship time, but I don't agree, we can worship him anywhere, anytime, alone or in a crowd of believers or unbelievers, I don't believe that Sabbath is about worship, more like acknowledgment.

Gerioke · August 5, 2005

Since God's sabbath is the 7th day from creation, shouldn't the individuals sabbath be the 7th day from their birth? With the Earth loosing a second per year and all the other quantum anomalies, it seems to me that our method of measuring time would leave us guessing at any accurate idea of the sabbath.

I'm just being goofy

Remnantrob · August 5, 2005

QUOTE(Gerioke @ Aug 5 2005, 08:31 AM)
Why do so many people equate the Sunday church service with the day of rest? I've seen discontent at church on numerous occassions. I would think that the most effective day of rest would be at home.

*

I agree, this is also another dividing line, that Sabbath means worship time, but I don't agree, we can worship him anywhere, anytime, alone or in a crowd of believers or unbelievers, I don't believe that Sabbath is about worship, more like acknowledgment.

I agree with you Z that we can worship God anytime and anywhere, but I do believe that we are still to meet together in holy convocation and fellowship with our brothers and sisters. I was reading Isaiah 14 when it was describing Lucifer and a friend pointed out something that I never saw before.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Most of us know these verse by heart almost. But while studying he pointed out something interesting in verse 13.

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven....

I pointed this out in another thread that if you look in Romans 10:6 it states...

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

But most of you probably already caught that years ago....I'm still a youngin'

Then when you read further on in the verse it says...

13 ...I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation...

I looked up the word congregation in that text and it said...

Mow`ed: appointed place, appointed time, meeting

I just figured the word meant a gathering, but it adds that it is an appointed time and place. I found that interesting since the seventh day sabbath instituted by God is an appointed time.....the place thing i'm still working on

Then I reread the passage and it seemed as if Lucifer wanted to take away the worship of God from a set time(7th day) to his own time...(insert what you will).

One of my favorite arguments for the Sabbath is the Sacrifices of Cain and Able. Even though both were sacrifices, only one followed the instruction given as to what the sacrifice was to be. I find it interesting that on this issue, you get a great deal of feedback and animousity from both sides of the party. All the other commandments are seemingly comprehendable, but the 4th one is always an issue...WHY? I guess we'll find out when we need to.

I believe that the law is the foudation of his government and just like any earthly king, He's going to enforce it at whatever cost. Yes he's God and he's sovereign and can change what he wants, but the bible as you know states that he is not one to change. Not even for his "elect". If you look at the story of Daniel and the Lions den, you can come to the conclusion that the King did not want to execute judgement on Daniel(because he liked him), but it was the law and he could not change it. So if he being human could not change it, why would Almighty God do that which he established himself. And I don't believe that God violated the sabbath laws and had right to being God. He subjected himself to the law and kept them perfectly. The pharisees made more of the sabbath law than it should have been and that is why Christ had to remind them that it was made for man and not the other way around. In the Legalism thread that died a couple of weeks ago, I posted a chapter from a book that is yet to be published by someone I met in another forum. That is why neither you or even I could google it up online. But the information on it is alive with truth and counsel should be taken. Here's the LINK

From what I understand the truth hurts and it offends. If it doesn't then it's probably not truth. I think those who are offended by the other parts of the law recognize it and do what comes naturally as a Christian and go to their savior for help. But on that 4th commandment, it offends and people just make up an excuse. Here's the advice of the day.

John 8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Free from the feeling of condemnation from anyone or thing including the law it self.

(Bracing myself for the blows...)

Happy posting everyone.

Remnantrob · August 5, 2005

I just got done reading another article online and i figured it would be good food for thought also.

Genesis 2:2-3

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

To sanctify and hallow a day means to set it apart for holy use.

See The Origin of the Sabbath

(Genesis 26:5)

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

So God's "Commandments," "Statutes," and "laws" were known to Abraham hundreds of years before Moses. And why not? Abraham could have heard it from Shem, who heard it from Methusalah, who heard it from Adam, who heard it from God.

Now let's back up a little in the history of Israel, to a time before they arrived at Sinai, before God revealed to them the commandments from the mountain top, before He made the covenant with them.

Exodus 16.23-30

This is that which the LORD said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and cook that you will cook today; and that which is left over store for yourselves to be kept until the morning. ..

And [the next day] Moses said, Eat that today; for today is the Sabbath unto the LORD: today you shall not find it in the field.

Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none.

And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

And the LORD said unto Moses, HOW LONG REFUSE YOU TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS?

Apparently the commandments and laws, as well as the Sabbath were already known before Sinai, for why else would God reprimand them for not keeping His commandments and laws?

The critics build a case against the Sabbath because the Bible does not specifically say Abraham, Isaac, Noah, etc. kept the seventh day. However, no mention is found in the book of Joshua, nor in Judges, nor Ruth, nor in first Samuel, nor second Samuel, nor in first Kings that people observed the Sabbath. It is not until we reach the book of second Kings that the Sabbath is mentioned again. Does this mean none of the judges or people kept the Sabbath after they entered the promised land, during all those years, even though it was after Sinai?

After the flood, the descendants of Noah centered their civilization in the Mesopotamia region and there, in ancient writings, we see the perversion of God's Sabbath. It became a day when the "gods" rested, and people were required to work hard to appease the gods. However, the true Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27) and God's people, no matter their position as ruler or servant, were to rest and delight themselves in the Lord upon that day. (Exodus 20:10 Isaiah 58:13). The very fact that the 7th day Sabbath was so perverted in the early Mesopotamian culture, shows that it was known.

In the book of Genesis and Job the numerous circumsantial evidences to the existence of a seven day week (Gen. 7:4,10; 8:10,12; 29:27; 50:10; and Job 2:13) presupposes the existance of the Sabbath for the Sabbath is the foundation of the weekly cycle which is NOT based on any natural cycle.

Kabowd · August 5, 2005

Am I missing something or were we not given freedom in Romans 14 to observe the Sabbath as we choose...without judgment or condemnation from those who observe it differently?

Remnantrob · August 5, 2005

sorry i just saw that i neglected to cite the source. here it is SABBATH

by Ulrike

Christ's Free Servant · August 5, 2005

I feel invisible here. Was my response too long? Does anyone agree or disagree with it? I'm feeling left out of the discussion.

August 5, 2005

Am I missing something or were we not given freedom in Romans 14 to observe the Sabbath as we choose...without judgment or condemnation from those who observe it differently?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can I ask a question without being thought of as baiting?

If as most believe, we were given the freedom to observe the Sabbath as we see fit, this coming from Paul right? Where did he get the authority to change G-ds laws and Moedim/ memorials? If Yeshua/ Jesus didn't change any laws while he was here, how could a mere mortal do so? And if you say Yeshua gave him authority why did he observe the sabbath?

Also the law is two-part - to remember ( a memorial) and observe ( to do or not do a certain thing thus sanctifying this day or setting it apart from all other common days).

Kabowd · August 5, 2005

Am I missing something or were we not given freedom in Romans 14 to observe the Sabbath as we choose...without judgment or condemnation from those who observe it differently?