why do Islamists hate the west?

[ted]

Perhaps some of these people that are afraid of nothing could share with us their stories of witnessing on the streets of Baghdad?

How about the times they went straight into downtown Kandahar and opened their Bibles and preached Christ on the corner?

Maybe they have tales of opening missions in Tehran?

Or,

Perhaps they have never faced the fear and reality of radical Islam in the first person and speak only from the comforts of their own homes?

Yeah, that sounds more like it to me.

fenwar, what keeps you from going over there?

Surely your desire to see them to Christ overrides any fear you may have.

Got your ticket yet?

Sometimes, you just gotta walk the walk.

t.

[Eadora]

........, what keeps you from going over there?   

Surely your desire to see them to Christ overrides any fear you may have.

Got your ticket yet? 

Sometimes, you just gotta walk the walk.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that would be one way to silence disent would it not

I have to go with Bros fenwar with this one.

I need his help in trying to deal with you knuckle heads!!

Please excuse the "Ad Hominum" attack.

[followerofjesus]

Its better to see in black & white than grey. Let right be right & wrong be wrong.

Those w/ discernment can seperate what is good from evil.

nuff said.

[dgolvach]

I think I should make this clear. I am not an advocate for hatred towards Muslims. I don't hate them. I am not suggesting death to Muslims even though I wish their false religion would die. I am suggesting that we take a more sober look at the true mind set that has taken hold of maybe 5 or 6 % of the Islamic world. 5 or 6 % of 1.2 billion is huge and more than enough to cause dooms day. We are not taking this threat as we should. We our allowing this lunacy called political correctness build our own gallows. We have yet to begin to address the border issue. Our immigration policies are beyond irresponcible. As we chat, the truth is coming out about the 911 terrorists. It turns out that some of our top military intel were aware of the bunch who did the dirty deed and were investigating them. They attempted to turn this imformation over to the FBI but were blocked by a wall of UCLU type Clinton cronie lawyers back in 1999. The military brass was told that they go no futher because it was treading on the civil liberties of the Islamonuts. 2 years and 3000 lives later...well you know the story. Notice how the liberal media is ducking from this as much as possible. We need to stop the foolishness of searching Grandma at the airports while Ali and Mohammed buzz on through the line. Sorry...but deal with it. Its called profiling and it can save lives. (maybe yours). We need to go back to cold war style ground intel so our heads aren't in the sand about whats going on. Satalites will not give us the details we need to prevent future attacks. We need spies on the ground in Mosques. Here and overseas. When we hear the type of violent preaching coming out of the mouths of clerics in this country we need to deport them. Mosques should be open to the public just as Christian Churches are. We need to rethink our energy policy. We should have a goal that will make us independent of any Arab oil within the next 10 years. It is possible. It will take concessions from from both sides of the political isle. More domestic drilling. Looser enviromental restictions. Cars that get better milage such as hybrids. Alternative energy sorces. Conservation. All of the above. We need to allow the Arabs to keep all of their oil and have no reason for our money or military over on their "holy" soil. We must be willing to hit back in a fashion that they will understand if they attempt any more acts of terrorism. If they don't? leave them alone.

Do these things and perhaps our grandkids will have a future.

Dan

[fenwar]

No, you misunderstand.  Jesus' commandment to "love your enemies" was given within the context of how to deal with those who gossip, defraud us, and so forth.  We are to return such evil with kindness.  Jesus was not addressing foreign policy. He was not dictating how we respond to those who threaten our existance. 

"Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

If persecution is not a "threat to existence" I don't know what is. But in any case, shiloh, don't you know that your existence is not under threat? These people can kill your body but they can never destroy your soul. Don't be afraid of them!

The naivety to love unconditionally like a little child? The naivety to extend the hand of friendship to a savage brute?

That is exactly what Jesus did to sinful mankind.

And yes, it got him killed. Just like he knew it would all along.

Nonsense....

The Bible does not teach that we are to love unconditionally as a little child. The Bible says that we enter the Kingdom of God with the faith of a child. You need to read your Bible for a change.

I read my Bible a lot. I know it doesn't literally say the exact words I said. I'm not talking about the letter of what the Bible says. I'm talking about the spirit. The attitude with which Jesus lived his life. The consequences of knowing that the peacemakers are blessed beyond this life. The knowledge that death is not the end. The heart of God for all men to be saved, and the imperative to preach the gospel to all nations. And above all, the utter, vital, indispensable importance of unconditional love, because God first loved us.

All these things lead me to believe that we will achieve a better solution if we do not base our actions on fear and loathing. Such feelings are a trap laid for us by Satan.

The reasons that Jesus went to the cross had nothing to do with how you are trying to characterize it.  Jesus was not "killed."  Jesus willingly gave His life.

It takes two to tango. Jesus was tried by a kangaroo court, handed over to the Romans and crucified at the request of the baying crowd. Why? If it didn't matter who killed him, why not just hop on an altar and set fire to it? Or even just jump off a cliff?

His life was a sacrifice for sin.  His death was not the result of His being killed at the hands of His enemies.

Are you suggesting that sinful man was not the enemy of God? For me that's the whole theme of "reconciliation" is all about. That's definitely in my Bible.

Jesus has told us about something that is worth dying for. No-one who dies speaking love in Jesus' name will ever die in vain.

Why are you so afraid to die?

You need to come down and live in the real world. People like you only give encouragement and inspiration to the terrorists. If I didn't know better, I would say that you are one of their apologists. You would prefer the terrorists destroy us, while we stand around quoting Bible verses, than for us to actually defend our selves and faimilies. It would appear from all of your inane posts, that you are, for the most part rooting for the terrorists. If you had to choose who lives and who dies, you sooner see us die, and the terrorists, be successful in their endeavors. Any attempt or desire on our part to preserve ourselves from their evil is characterized by you as being unbiblical. Why else would you ask me why I am "afraid" to die.

Not at all. I have no objection to those guilty of criminal offences (including making threats of terrorism or advocating/condoning terrorist acts) being dealt with as the government sees fit.

And I would certainly not wish death on anyone. If a terrorist is actually attacking you or your family then by all means you are entitled to defend yourself.

But I would rather be killed by a terrorist than become a murderer like them myself. Better to have my body destroyed than to hand my soul over to the destroyer.

The whole point of "terrorists" is they want us to be afraid of them. But we know something they don't - we know we have a guarantee of eternal life. So we are not afraid.

"We look not at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal."

[fenwar]

Perhaps some of these people that are afraid of nothing could share with us their stories of witnessing on the streets of Baghdad?

How about the times they went straight into downtown Kandahar and opened their Bibles and preached Christ on the corner?

Maybe they have tales of opening missions in Tehran? 

Or,

Perhaps they have never faced the fear and reality of radical Islam in the first person and speak only from the comforts of their own homes? 

Yeah, that sounds more like it to me.

fenwar, what keeps you from going over there?   

Surely your desire to see them to Christ overrides any fear you may have.

Got your ticket yet? 

Sometimes, you just gotta walk the walk.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This wasn't what I was talking about - more a response to people's suggestions of how we deal with Muslims within our own borders.

But since you asked, at some point I would like to go to Muslim countries. My wife spent some time in Kazakhstan before we were married and would like to go back there with me. At present we are both still in debt from our student days and it would be impractical to go, but we certainly will.

Of course on a personal level I struggle to persuade myself to leave my comfort zone - I have a job I really enjoy and a life over here I don't want to leave. Of course I struggle to walk the walk and not just talk the talk; I'm a sinner.

But if no-one talks, how will anyone know how to walk?

I am posting on this thread because I believe a great number of people here have an attitude towards Muslims that does far more damage to their souls than any extremist ever could. And if anything, it will only increase the hostility between Islam and Christianity - making it more difficult to reach Muslims with the gospel wherever they live.

While I certainly support those who are willing to go and preach the gospel in Muslim countries that is not what I am insisting on here.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Aug 11 2005, 10:43 PM)

No, you misunderstand.  Jesus' commandment to "love your enemies" was given within the context of how to deal with those who gossip, defraud us, and so forth.  We are to return such evil with kindness.  Jesus was not addressing foreign policy. He was not dictating how we respond to those who threaten our existance. 

"Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

If persecution is not a "threat to existence" I don't know what is. But in any case, shiloh, don't you know that your existence is not under threat? These people can kill your body but they can never destroy your soul. Don't be afraid of them!

But we are not talking about persecution. We are not talking about peopple simply hating us because we are Christians. Persecution is one thing, but terrorism is something else altogether. It is inappropriate to treat them as the same. If a man breaks into your house and threatens your familly, that is not persecution, that is attempted murder, and he must be defended against. Would you just stand around and quote Bible verses while he slaughters your family? If you are consistent with what you are spewing here, then you should not defend your faimily if someone tries to harm them. You just stand there and offer that savage brute the hand of friendship and tell him how much you love him and want to understand why he slitting your wife's throat. You certainly would not want to stop him until you understood his grievances against you right? Do you see how absurd that it is?

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Defending one's family and preserving your existance against terrorism is not unbiblical.

I read my Bible a lot. I know it doesn't literally say the exact words I said. I'm not talking about the letter of what the Bible says. I'm talking about the spirit. The attitude with which Jesus lived his life. The consequences of knowing that the peacemakers are blessed beyond this life. The knowledge that death is not the end. The heart of God for all men to be saved, and the imperative to preach the gospel to all nations. And above all, the utter, vital, indispensable importance of unconditional love, because God first loved us.

All these things lead me to believe that we will achieve a better solution if we do not base our actions on fear and loathing. Such feelings are a trap laid for us by Satan.

Not even in the "spirit" does the Bible teach that we are to "love unconditionally as a child." That is just something you made up. Who should I love more? The terrorist, or my family whom I would be commissioned by God to protect against such threats? That is the delimma. I have to decide if I love my family enough to kill the man who tries to harm them. The answer is, I will not devalue the lives of the victims of terrorism by pretending that the terrorists have a legitimate grievance that justifies their murderous rampage.

If they want to die as martyrs, I will pull out my 12 guage, and accomodate them. Better them than me or my family.

QUOTE

His life was a sacrifice for sin.  His death was not the result of His being killed at the hands of His enemies.

Are you suggesting that sinful man was not the enemy of God? For me that's the whole theme of "reconciliation" is all about. That's definitely in my Bible.

No, I am saying that Jesus' enemies had no power over Him. His death was the product of His planning and His timing. No one "killed" Jesus. He was not a martyr, and was not executed. Jesus's was God's sacrifcial Lamb given for the benefit of mankind. I am just putting Jesus' death in proper perspective.

[nebula]

I think I should make this clear. I am not an advocate for hatred towards Muslims. I don't hate them. I am not suggesting death to Muslims even though I wish their false religion would die. I am suggesting that we take a more sober look at the true mind set that has taken hold of maybe 5 or 6 % of the Islamic world. 5 or 6 % of 1.2 billion is huge and more than enough to cause dooms day. We are not taking this threat as we should. We our allowing this lunacy called political correctness build our own gallows. . . .

Great post, Dan!

I agree with everything you said.

[Eadora]

Yoh Friends

Quote fenwar 04:02 AM

The attitude with which Jesus lived his life. The consequences of knowing that the peacemakers are blessed beyond this life. The knowledge that death is not the end. The heart of God for all men to be saved, and the imperative to preach the gospel to all nations. And above all, the utter, vital, indispensable importance of unconditional love, because God first loved us.

And

But I would rather be killed by a terrorist than become a murderer like them myself. Better to have my body destroyed than to hand my soul over to the destroyer

And

I am posting on this thread because I believe a great number of people here have an attitude towards Muslims that does far more damage to their souls than any extremist ever could. And if anything, it will only increase the hostility between Islam and Christianity - making it more difficult to reach Muslims with the gospel wherever they live.

These and many other words you speak tell me much about you, friend fenwar

We hold these thoughts in common. Blessed are The Peace Makers.

G.B.Y. and Thank You.

Dgolvach

Though I may not agree with everything you said I will agree with nebula.

[ted]

Fenwar,

Perhaps you are wrong about most of the people here when it comes to their (our?) zeal in eliminating Muslims?

The point is, no one here wants to eliminate anyone, Muslim or not. It's not a matter of wanting to destroy them. My point is, and has been since the day I joined the Army back in '87, that I will stand ready to defend this nation, and it's allies, against all forms of attack, where ever that may take me. Back in the day, that meant the possibility of taking on the Soviet Union. Later, that meant my active participation in Honduras and Panama, and later still, and much closer to the present, it meant my participation in Afghanistan.

There are three basic trains of thought around here, two of which are completely wrong:

1. We must destroy all Muslims to win the war on terror.

2. We must pull all US troops out of every Muslim country, and they will leave us alone.

3. We must continue to be on the offensive in places we think may be hot beds of terrorism, so that we do not have to revert to the defensive posture when confronting this "new" enemy.

Clearly, the "enemy" is not the Muslim faith and it's followers. The enemy, in truth, are the leaders of the Muslim faith that use their religion as an excuse to attack us, and gain followers for the cause. These are the ones that must be stopped. Now, the question lingers: is it better to meet them on their ground, or ours?

Let's do a quick study of the above three trains of thought.

1. Those who believe that we must destroy all Muslims to win the war, obviously are ignorant of the war itself. Muslims, like any other group of people, are people. Human beings.

They have families, jobs, farms, industries, brothers, mothers, illnesses, happiness, etc..., in other words, they have just as much of a right to basic human life and dignity as anyone else. Literally millions of them live in peace with their neighbors with no conflict whatsoever. Cool! We may understand their culture very well, but that doesn't mean that they are worthy of killing, simply because they are Muslims. To think like that would be bigoted, ignorant, and inexcusable.

They are not the enemy we face.

Please read on.....

2. Ah, the magic "pull-out". Now there's an option that never really works, no matter how we apply it, does it? To understand the complexity of such an option, we must never read too much into it. We try to think that it is a simple plan: leave them alone, and they will leave us alone, right?

Wrong.

They (the true enemy, which we will define shortly) will never leave us alone, for one simple reason: WE SUPPORT ISRAEL!

Well, at least we used to anyway. I'm not so sure that Israel can count on us 100% of the time, these days, but that's another matter.

We will be forever hunted by the enemy because we have supported Israel's right to exist from the beginning. That is why they hate us. You can forget all of these other trumped up charges made against us by many in the news. They hate us because we support Israel, plain and simple. There was no fight between us and them before 1947 or so, was there? One reason I think it took them so long to get us before recent years was because they couldn't. They didn't have the will just 30 years or so to attack us, nor the means to do it. They took their pot-shots, but nothing on a scale of 9/11.

Their true hate is Israel. That is what all of this is about. Not oil (although it is a big by-line to the story), not Haliburton (ignore the idiotic stories that we create war to fund them, if you check it out, you will see that Haliburton, and it's company Kellogg, Brown, and Root are one of the only companies in the world that could provide the amount of support that is does on a daily basis. It's just that simple. Think of the support it provides. Everything from food, power and latrines, the list goes on for days. But, again, that's another topic for another thread.), nor anything else.

In these terms, we have forever doomed ourselves by supporting Israel's right to exist, in their eyes. I'm ok with that. I'd rather have Israel on my side than any other nation when the gum hits the fan.

So, at this point, it wouldn't matter if we went home and took our toys with us. It wouldn't matter to them. We are the Great Satan in their eyes, therefore, we are to die.

So, if we can't, nor shouldn't, kill them all, and we shouldn't close the curtain on any foreign policy whatsoever, what is left?

Well, for one thing, we must agree on just who the enemy is in the first place. Here's my take: The enemy is anyone that wants to cause harm to America, it's citizens, or it's allies in combat or trade for the purpose of killing, disruption, or the support of misguided ideology.

Currently, and in my opinion, this enemy is identified by some taking some verses in their "holy" book, taking these ideas to the extreme, and building the support needed by manipulation to attack us for our support of their #1 true enemy. Their goal is to see the nation of Israel pushed into the sea. A total and complete eradication of every Jew, Christian, and non-Muslim that they can get their hands on. Their religious leaders preach this, their national leaders pursue this, and they are quite effective at having hundreds of thousands of their followers fall in line with this stuff.

So, if we can pretty much determine who the greatest current threat to the US is, the biggest question becomes...just what can we do about it? Realistically, I mean?

We can't kill them all, and we can't shut ourselves out completely from the rest of the world, so my vote is: head 'em off at the pass!

Appeasement will not work. Not in this case, anyway. They care little about what we can give them, other than maybe some cool nuclear development info. We have poured countless millions into their countries, and yet they continue to leave their masses in poverty. We have bought their oil, and made their leaders rich, but yet they still claim we are of satan. We have reached out to them and welcomed them into our borders, yet they claim we are holding them back from a life of purity by existing in such a corrupt state. Their religious beliefs go only as far as the dollar goes, much like any other politician. They my friend, are just as corrupt and nasty as we are, yet they espouse some holy notion that our nation is of the devil, and they are now on a mission to end us.

Complete and total BS! Their hypocrisy sticks out like a pink turban!

Observe any nation built around radical Islam and show me how they are more virtuous than the US.......

I'll wait............

Now, how many could you name?

Exactly!

We are oppressing them? No, they are oppressing themselves by design, and using the world's compassion to build their case against us.

Why? Because we support their true enemy, Israel.

Don't you think that they know what they are doing? They are using a tactic that becomes clear, when you put just a though into it.

Listen, they do not have the will or the means to take us on directly. If they did, they would have done so by now. Now, why do you think they want nukes so bad? If they get enough of them, they will be equal in might with us, and can then force our hands and sculpt us into what they want us to be, which is dead. They don't want us to go home and leave them alone, they want us gone. Their goal is total domination as a religious power. Actually, that statement wasn't quite true, their goal is total world domination, and they use their religion as the means to do this, don't they?

No, at this point, they cannot take us on face to face, so they are using another tactic, and quite effectively, I might add. It is one that they have been using ever since Israel was raised again as a nation, over 50 years ago. The tactic involves trying to turn world opinion onto their side, and use any means needed to win the approval of the world, to make their case and weaken their enemy. They do this through creating an image of of oppression, and feeding the hearts of the world with a steady diet of suffering and woe, most of which they have brought upon themselves in the first place, as a means of deception.

Ask yourself some easy questions like: why would the nations that sit on most of the world's oil supply keep their people in poverty? Why will the Syrians, the Lebanese, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, and other simply not take back the people they sent into Israel to be refugees in the first place? That's where they came from, isn't it? Why wouldn't they simply take them back? Instead, they closed their borders and left them to the buzzards of the desert. Why?

Because, my friend, if they took back their own people that they hung out to dry, there wouldn't be any refugee problem to build a case upon, would there be?

In simple terms, it's a set up. A lie that was created some years ago to build a case for the destruction of Israel. They couldn't take Israel on directly and win, so they needed another angle.

Now, as they apply the same tactics against the US, it has never been more effective. Today, most of the world hates us, but they don't even know why! Listen to them on the news sometime; people are just spouting out what they have heard about us, but they never really take the time to look a little deeper at the situations, do they?

No, they follow like sheep over a cliff, and never take the time to see the bridge, just a short distance away.

Do you see what we are dealing with? Lies, distortions, complete fabrications, and a host of nasty little ideas that have captured the hearts of millions. This is the enemy we fight. It's sad that only a few nations of the world can really see what is happening, but it's true.

But it makes no difference to me.

This is the enemy we face as a nation. We can ignore the problem, or we can confront it. Is it a losing cause? So be it, I'll lose fighting, I guess, the same way you would if you faced the same problem, on a smaller scale, in your own home.

Jesus talked of turning the other cheek and offering the other side as well, but I don't think He was talking about this instance. Not completely, anyway. If I was to be captured because I was a Christian, and was tortured for my belief, than I would have no problem dying for Him, if that is what it would come to. But, this is not a case of religious persecution, is it?

No, it is a case of a terrible bunch of people that are manipulating millions into believing in their cause. They are playing on the fears of others in the hopes that they will not join us in the fight, and it is working. They understand that most people are lazy, and will resist anything that takes them out of their comfort zone, and they are proven right. They have won the battle of the hearts and minds of the indifferent and the slothful. They have created chaos and confusion, in the exact way in which they had hoped for, and they now have a foothold on our very front door. In fact, they now have footholds within the very house, I'm afraid!

Given the situation, I remain ready to go into their yard, and stop them before they come into mine. I stand ready to defend against this, as long as my body and mind are able. I'm only 39, so I have a few years left, hopefully, and God willing.

Hopefully, the world will come to it's senses before it's too late, and we have to live in radical islamic oppression until Jesus come back. We really need the help.

We need others in the world that will help us, so that our women do not have to cover their faces in public, and so our children never have to go through re-education camps learning the hatred that is taught there. We need the help to provide a world in which we can preach Christ without the fear of death or prison, but if that is all we have left, I'm tying my laces and heading to the streets to shout Christ. We need the help of others to keep our promise of Life, and Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. We need the help of the world to counter this very real threat.

We have shown that we will go the distance alone if need be, but I'm afraid we will not prevail if we must do it alone. We could possibly win against them, but not against them, and the entire world.

We need the help.

If you are falling for the lies of radical islam, then please think about what is going on. If you don't want to fight, then I can understand completely. Not everyone can, but everyone can help. Stop by the local VA and spend a minute with someone there. Donate blood, send a card, buy a cup of coffee for someone, and above all that you can do here on Earth: Pray.

If, after reading this, you still cannot understand me, or if you can, but simply disagree, then please, just stand out of the way while the fight goes on. No amount of pleading with them, feigning understanding of their plight, or sympathizing with them will stop them. They have no desire to let you live, simply because you do not fall in line with their brand of islam. They have no desire to let you live even if you are a follower of Islam, yet do not fall in line with their thinking. The Taliban killed off thousands of their Islamic "Brothers", simply because they did not fall in line with them. Same in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, or any of the "Stans", as well.

You see, Bush is right: We are not fighting Islam, although the religion is anything but blasphemy against the One true God. We are not fighting Islam, we are fighting those people that have taken up a cause against us, by our support of Israel, and are hiding behind the mask of Islam. Although I do think Islam is in error according to the Bible, my fight, and my country's fight, is not against Islam, but against the people that are using it as an excuse to fight us, and kill us.

Every last one of us.

Would it surprise you if I said I would fight in the same way if a group had attacked us in the name of Christ? To me, if some group had flown planes into the WTC with a banner proclaiming Jesus trailing behind them, they would be every much my enemy, as well. Sane people, followers of a god, or God, do not do such things, that is how we can tell if they are fighting in the name of truth or not. We can see that our current enemy is crazy, and they care little about their "god". They care about what they have been taught, not about who has touched them eternally.

So, my friend, we have an enemy willing to end us, and all that we are.

Are we willing to let them?

All that is left now is right and wrong.

t.

PS- I did a spelling check, but still there may be some words that escape. I got too tired trying to weed them out, so just apply the rest to my stupidity!