Can the definition of a soul found in Genesis 2:7 maintain its integrity throughout the Scriptures?

[Michael37]

I agree with Isaiah. As a result of His initial work of Creation, the creation of living, breathing people and their spirits is ongoing, continuous, and current. 

Isa 42:5  Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

[Guest kingdombrat]

2 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

I agree with Isaiah. As a result of His initial work of Creation, the creation of living, breathing people and their spirits is ongoing, continuous, and current. 

Isa 42:5  Thus says God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Amen!

[suzan344]

4 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi sis,

Can you please explain this, in my Bible it's just "dust of the ground". Which I don't think is a problem at all.

Thanks, and God bless.

Yes, as I first said, this is all a mystery.  I understand it is finalized in people's minds that the dust referenced in Genesis 2:7 is the dust of earth itself.

But, the term 'dust' also means fields.  Funny how we have term called 'particle fields'.  

I could go further and state you have to look at context of this verse as well.  Where exactly was God when he made Adam?  In Heaven or standing on the surface on the earth itelf?  I mean we assume he means dust on earth itself, but again if God is in Heaven, it could be dust from someplace there as well.

I always felt the garden of Eden's location was somewhere in 3rd Heaven and not on earth.  Perhaps Adam is made of 'dust' from the location of the garden of Eden and not from earth itself.

If the ancients had no words for particle matter, they would choose commonly used earth words to spell out what occurred way back then, in Heaven and on earth, so we would never actually know what type of 'dust' is being referenced in Genesis 2:7 for sure, ie. cosmic dust or earthly dust.

This is why I refer to it as a mystery because we can't be sure of  what 'dust' actually means here in Genesis 2:7 where every single verse in Chapters one and two are speaking about the formation from Heaven itself of the creation of mankind and earth from perhaps particle matter formed by God's word. 

I mean we don't even know how God created earth let alone mankind let alone Adam.  We can only suppose at this juncture and not assume what 'dust' means.

Just saying, if you keep assuming Adam was origially made of flesh and blood, that sort of blows the entire concept, put forth through the whole Bible that physical bodies can not exist in Heaven only spiritual bodies like souls and human spirits can. 

Yes, there are references to some sort of form being given man in Heaven, but it is never spelled out exactly what this form is made of other than it is 'new' and Christians believe they go to New earth anyway and not heaven (Rev. 21).

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by suzan344

[Guest kingdombrat]

13 minutes ago, suzan344 said:

Yes, as I first said, this is all a mystery.  I understand it is finalized in people's minds that the dust referenced in Genesis 2:7 is the dust of earth itself.

But, the term 'dust' also means fields.  Funny how we have term called 'particle fields'.  

I could go further and state you have to look at context of this verse as well.  Where exactly was God when he made Adam?  In Heaven or standing on the surface on the earth itelf?  I mean we assume he means dust on earth itself, but again if God is in Heaven, it could be dust from someplace there as well.

I always felt the garden of Eden's location was somewhere in 3rd Heaven and not on earth.  Perhaps Adam is made of 'dust' from the location of the garden of Eden and not from earth itself.

If the ancients had no words for particle matter, they would choose commonly used earth words to spell out what occurred way back then, in Heaven and on earth, so we would never actually know what type of 'dust' is being referenced in Genesis 2:7 for sure, ie. cosmic dust or earthly dust.

This is why I refer to it as a mystery because we can't be sure of  what 'dust' actually means here in Genesis 2:7 where every single verse in Chapters one and two are speaking about the formation from Heaven itself of the creation of mankind and earth from perhaps particle matter formed by God's word. 

I mean we don't even know how God created earth let alone mankind let alone Adam.  We can only suppose at this juncture and not assume what 'dust' means.

Just saying, if you keep assuming Adam was origially made of flesh and blood, that sort of blows the entire concept, put forth through the whole Bible that physical bodies can not exist in Heaven only spiritual bodies like souls and human spirits can. 

Yes, there are references to some sort of form being given man in Heaven, but it is never spelled out exactly what this form is made of other than it is 'new' and Christians believe they go to New earth anyway and not heaven (Rev. 21).

 

Whatever the combination to what terms pertaining to dust are, they still have everything in common to the first one of each kind.   From Mankind to other Creation, they were made similar and alike.

 

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The 'context' and proper application for the correct meaning. Our word meanings change so fast, Webster dictionary can't keep up with the changes. The Bible's word meaning never change! While I'm on the subject of dictionaries, Webster's 'original 1828 dictionary is a great tool to use understanding biblical words. Then you have a zillion [okay, maybe I'm exaggerating just a tad] different translations of the same word, IE.

NKJV 21. So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves

NET 21. God created the great sea creatures and every living and moving thing with which the water swarmed

RSV 21. So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves... You get the idea.

During the last century is when this myriad of translations began . Previous to the 19th century, there were only a handful of translations [Geneva, KJV, etc.]. 

The Bible has always been the best selling Book of all time. Ever looked in the first few pages of 100+ interpretations of the Bible; and notice which ones are copyrighted, and which ones are not? To avoid plagiarism, copyright laws require the material to be about [last check] 15% different. 15% + 15% +15% + 15% = from the original text used. 

In my opinion, the Bible has been used as a cash cow. The claim is, to understand it better and so forth. I don't subscribe to that notion myself.

I didn't detail it or document it above but, animals also have spirits. In short and w/o any commentary or other references: Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

We were created in the image of God. Too long to paste and document my notes here but; understanding what an imager of God is helps a lot. It's not a set of attributes either; as we share some of those attributes with the animal kingdom. Everyone does not share equally with attributes.

I may not be correct in my thoughts and I'm by no means 'teaching' anything above. I'm not adamant or dogmatic with my ever learning and changing thoughts. One needs to be a Berean and see if those things are so. 

Thank you! That makes so much sense - money!

By the way, and because of how difficult this topic is and my clumsiness in trying to get my thoughts out clearly, I would like to state that I DO believe both man And animals have a body, breath air AND have a spirit. But the “spirit” I am talking about is one that God breathed into Adam ONLY. This is the spirit  (in His image) that He imparted and separated man from other creatures. 

He breathed it into Adam. Adam lost it by sinning.      Man can only get it back through the blood of Christ.

There is one important thing to mention here..... You really need or should be responding more to these posts!!!

Thanks again (this happens to be an identical term regardless of the translation), Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, SONshine said:

Lots of enthusiastic posts!  Here’s mine. 

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different.  ....so you have two bodies; the natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body goes back to the Father when the flesh or natural body dies. 

Ecclesiastes 12:7  “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

 

Where have you been? It’s about time you weighed in ...

I don’t want to speak for you but in my mind and the way I interpret these verses they fit perfectly....

Because of our sin the “spirit” imparted within us at creation could not exist with (any longer) with our “tainted or sinned” physical body. Not only could God not be in the presence of sin but “His Spirit” given to Adam could also no longer reside in Adam - it had to return to God. And Adam had to be removed from the midst of the Garden. The angel of the Lord turning in all directions would prevent us from returning- telling us, not only can sin NEVER enter a Holy Place but regardless of where or how one attempts to enter, there is going to be ONLY ONE way back- blood of Jesus. 

On both sides of this angelic guard we see man and animals with bodies, breath air, have their own spirit, all will experience physical death but the only differences is this “imparted spirit” present in the Garden (man only), lost due to sin, and we are needing to restore or recover it so we can once again be with the Lord in a sinless place. 

On both sides of the angelic guard animals and man ARE (not have) a living soul but ONLY in the Garden did man was  a “perfected soul”. 

Your thoughts please, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

56 minutes ago, suzan344 said:

Yes, as I first said, this is all a mystery.  I understand it is finalized in people's minds that the dust referenced in Genesis 2:7 is the dust of earth itself.

But, the term 'dust' also means fields.  Funny how we have term called 'particle fields'.  

I could go further and state you have to look at context of this verse as well.  Where exactly was God when he made Adam?  In Heaven or standing on the surface on the earth itelf?  I mean we assume he means dust on earth itself, but again if God is in Heaven, it could be dust from someplace there as well.

I always felt the garden of Eden's location was somewhere in 3rd Heaven and not on earth.  Perhaps Adam is made of 'dust' from the location of the garden of Eden and not from earth itself.

If the ancients had no words for particle matter, they would choose commonly used earth words to spell out what occurred way back then, in Heaven and on earth, so we would never actually know what type of 'dust' is being referenced in Genesis 2:7 for sure, ie. cosmic dust or earthly dust.

This is why I refer to it as a mystery because we can't be sure of  what 'dust' actually means here in Genesis 2:7 where every single verse in Chapters one and two are speaking about the formation from Heaven itself of the creation of mankind and earth from perhaps particle matter formed by God's word. 

I mean we don't even know how God created earth let alone mankind let alone Adam.  We can only suppose at this juncture and not assume what 'dust' means.

Just saying, if you keep assuming Adam was origially made of flesh and blood, that sort of blows the entire concept, put forth through the whole Bible that physical bodies can not exist in Heaven only spiritual bodies like souls and human spirits can. 

Yes, there are references to some sort of form being given man in Heaven, but it is never spelled out exactly what this form is made of other than it is 'new' and Christians believe they go to New earth anyway and not heaven (Rev. 21).

 

Thank you Suzan... you certainly put a lot of thought in this!

Can you please look at a few recent posts above- I believe kingdombrat and SONshine may have mentioned ECC. 12:7 telling us that upon death we will return to the earth... 

Thanks, Charlie 

[suzan344]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Very nice! But I believe I may have not been clear enough.... 

I also believe and understand that man has a human spirit but this is not:

1) one of the 2 parts of Adam created by God. Man’s human spirit was and will always be to the end of time,

2) I am saying that Adam lost his “Spirit” imparted to him by God (His Breathing into Adam was not just air but His Spirit. Adam had to have this since it was taken from him after he sinned. This “Spirit” from God allowed Adam to be in His presence. 

For 6,000 years we are trying to get back with God- that means we must restore what what was lost and needed to be in His presence.

 Thank you, Charlie 

 

This one is also a mystery in my book.  Exactly what did God breathe into Adam and finally, was Adam already alive, as we term it, prior to having God's breath?

Recall, mankind was created without any need for God's breath in order to live.  Why then did Adam need it?

You feel it changed Adam so he could be in God's presence.  That is not very exact.  What about God's presence required such a change?

I think it means God gave part of himself to Adam so Adam could be immortal, for starters.  In other words, so Adam could be a bit like God.

What do I reference for this?  Well I looked for references to 'gift of life' and there are two regarding the gift of manna, one of which is in Revelations, the other was in the old testament (the story we all think we know).

I began with the idea some time ago that God did not actually give any actual human food to the Israelites while they were lost in the desert.  That in fact, the gift of manna from God was a long held secret by them and hence it was hidden what it actually was.

So pretending we don't know what manna actually was (I mean we think it was fungus), we can now look at what Revelations states it actually is.

Rev. 2:17

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it."

 

So in Revelations, God says those that enter New earth will get hidden manna.  Is this the same manna the Israelites received?  Does it mean gift of life?

How about gift of eternal life?

I could go even further and say why did God give it to those people in the desert to begin with?  My answer was he had to actually change their DNA.  Why?  Because up until that moment in time, God had no practical way to convince any people on earth to change their ways to such a point they became uncorruptable.  God literally changed their human spirit this way.  Or maybe, he actually gave them one even.

So when you say you want to understand Genesis @Charlie, well power to you.  Taken me 2 years to figure this much out and tons of prayer and research.  It is not obvious.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by suzan344

[suzan344]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Suzan... you certainly put a lot of thought in this!

Can you please look at a few recent posts above- I believe kingdombrat and SONshine may have mentioned ECC. 12:7 telling us that upon death we will return to the earth... 

Thanks, Charlie 

The human body is mortal and will perish*.  The human spirit, that is the part of the human form, that is a form of energy or alive, as God ses it, can ascend to Paradise in heaven.  Can be the operative word here.  It can also descend into sheol, as the Jews refer to the darkness of the abyss.

I have been reconciling the differences between Jewish views on the afterlife and christians since I feel it is relevant to us now.

It will just keep coming up for people I feel because times have changed, as Revelations forewarned, and other prophecies, it would, post tribulation (and I feel we are now officially past the last Trump prophecy of 1 Cointh. 15:52 as well), which I feel we are as in my book it ended mid 2019. 

Now we are in 1,000 year Kingdom of Jesus and all souls are accounted for.  That leaves us with what? ...another very long topic but basically to me it means the return of Paradise in Heaven as now New earth is off the table (as you recall all souls get judged for 7 years and then those few left with souls get left alone and the rest, because I feel no mortal bodies actually die during those 7 years, just souls that are judged, have to deal with an earth without God's grace.  An issue we now face, in my book.).

 

*Ecc 12:7

".....and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
    and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

 

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Interesting discussion, Charlie   I did a little research and came up with this:

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There are several important things to notice in this verse:

First, the Hebrew word for "formed" is yatsar, meaning to "mould" or "form" as a potter. It is not the same word as "created" in Gen. 1:26, which is bara.

Secondly, the word "man" used here is "eth-ha adham,” which means "this same man Adam.”  It means a specific man, not mankind in general.

So we see that God "breathed" into Adam's nostrils the "breath of life.”  The word translated "breathed" is naphach, which means to "inflate,” as in He inflated Adam's lungs.  But the word translated "breath" is neshamah, which means "divine inspiration,” "intellect” or "soul" or "spirit.”

So God not only inflated Adam's lungs with "air,” but placed in him his "breath of life body,” i.e. his spiritual body. The apostle Paul makes it very clear in 1 Cor. 15 that we have both a flesh body and a spiritual body, and so did Adam when God was finished forming him. 

So why did God form this special man "eth-ha adham?” ....Because it would be through this man "eth-ha adham" and his soon-to-be-formed helpmate, Eve, that Jesus Christ would be born.

I’m concluding that the breath of life that was breathed into Adam was not the Holy Spirit.  I might be wrong; I just don’t know for sure. 

 

So good! I love when the extremely talented and knowledgeable folks show me the Scripture in Hebrew and Greek- of course their ability to interpret and apply His Words as well!

Please forgive me - it may have seemed like I was implying or stating the “spirit” God breathed into Adam was the Holy Spirit but not is not what I meant- He breathed into Adam His Spirit not THE Holy Spirit. 

And once Adam sinned this God given / breathed in “spirit” could no longer reside within Adam... returned to God who gave it. Thanks, Charlie