Is there a rule anywhere that says God has to create everything new?

[Uber Genius]

12 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

A reasonable guess, with no authority.

 

Yes. That is what I presumed. You equivocated. Let's avoid that and use scientific evidence leading to an inference in the proper context. That is a scientific one (as redshift is clearly a scientific evidence) and we were talking about a scientific debate over cosmogony or the nature of the beginning of the universe. So it seems that scientific inference is the only way one can take my statement.

[Riverwalker]

25 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

Yes. That is what I presumed. You equivocated. Let's avoid that and use scientific evidence leading to an inference in the proper context. That is a scientific one (as redshift is clearly a scientific evidence) and we were talking about a scientific debate over cosmogony or the nature of the beginning of the universe. So it seems that scientific inference is the only way one can take my statement.

Yes it is evidence of red shift, and that is all. Go beyond that and you leave evidence behind, my original point.

I have no interest in scientific fairy tales.   If there is actual evidence that proves the big bang, let me know. All red shift does is indicate that everything is moving away from us. 

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

Yes it is evidence of red shift, and that is all. Go beyond that and you leave evidence behind, my original point.

I have no interest in scientific fairy tales.   If there is actual evidence that proves the big bang, let me know. All red shift does is indicate that everything is moving away from us. 

You misrepresented my point,

misrepresented the nature of science, 

didnt respond to how your presumptions not only destroy scientific inference but now you claim there is no scientific knowledge (it is fairy tale).

That is a knowledge claim! It is a sweeping one. Can you give justification that:

Force = mass x acceleration is false?

or that the reason we seem to not float while on Earth and do float in space is called the gravitational force is false?

I'm trying to help here but am not finding your responses to be generous. Further you seem to be holding to a skepticism more extreme than Hume himself. Christ, Paul, the Church Fathers all called us to be disciple who were "renewed in there minds to both spiritual and non-spiritual things."

Augustine if in many ways the father of philosophy taking over where the Greeks left off. 

The monastic traditions all saw themselves as studying God's design and his ways by studying science and engaging in philosophy.

Science was in fact very much a product of Christianity in the West.

Newton, Bacon, Liebniz, Boyle, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Descartes were all so the father's of modern scientific method, modern physics, modern math, modern chemistry, astronomy, biology, genetics(Mendel)were all Christians who believed that God had revealed himself in his creation and had made a world that was discoverable to man!

Just as Paul relates in his revelation in Roms. 1:19-20.

 

[Uber Genius]

2 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

All red shift does is indicate that everything is moving away from us. 

Actually that the light has traveled a long time to get to us. One inference is that space is expanding at less The the speed of light and so although things are moving away they are visible. 

[JohnD]

The point you are making is a valid one.

Was Adam, for example, created as a baby or a fully grown man?

Was the universe created fully functional (and at its approximate size it is now)?

Most people cave into the Big Bang theory.

And even those who champion it are beginning to entertain the idea that the

observable universe may only be an infinitesimal part of the entire universe... 

and that the observable universe was flung out to its present size in an extremely short

amount of time. ← which is what theologians have been saying all along

The observations of speed of light experiments over 300 years have in evidence (beyond

the margins of error) that the speed of light is in fact slowing down.

I am not a mathematician... but Barry Setterfied and Trevor Norman 

wrote a paper that brought the scientific house down (on their heads as is

typical for scientists) over the Decay of C. (the speed of light). And using a cosequin squared curve

backdating to some 7 thousand years ago  the speed of light could have been as much as 10 million times faster

than it is today.

So even if the universe started as a pin prick of matter and exploded into a universe, the light from the farthest

galaxies would have been in contact with all others the entire ride. And could have been as recent as 7 to 10 thousand

years ago.

[Mike Mclees]

On 1/19/2021 at 11:53 AM, Uber Genius said:

Seems to be a typo here.

the reason they fail to see it is it can't be seen. 

Therefore it can't be dismissed.

Evidence by definition has to be known otherwise there is no evidence. Therefore it can't be dismissed. But it never existed. 

Here we need context and word study, especially for the Greek word pistis. 

But we can make some sense of the passage on faith.

It is a function of testimony, and men's memory of their experience of God. Things unseen are thoughts we have about how God made the world from nothing by his word. (GEn 1-3) So based on testimony dating back 1500 years by the elders (probably a reference to authors and those testifying about God in OT, and in combination with our God-given faculty of rationality telling us the universe must have had a beginning (thoughts, testimonies, God's creative act via his words, are all unseen, but not unrational.) and a beginner that transcended the Creation.

Is there a rule anywhere that says God has to create everything new

Im not sure of how you want to define your question.  I can understand  what you say about 6000 years and the err

On 1/10/2021 at 2:52 PM, Riverwalker said:

Forgive me for stirring the pot, but what if God created the world 4.5 billion years old, 6000 years ago?   Would not all the tools we have point to an old earth?

Why would God do that? Because an old world, would be far more amenable and conducive to supporting life than a brand new one (speaking developmentally.) And its not the only instance where that happened in Creation.  Adam and Eve were created mature as were all the plants and animals, and later when Jesus made wine out of water, it was a fine aged wine not a raw new wine, the Wedding guests marveled at it.

How big of a stretch is to accept that the one who made time, could transcend time, just as he transcended the nature of water when He walked on it? And what of the fossils?  Part of the history God gave the old earth when it was created. Now many will say why would God want to fool people like that. But only those who do not accept what God has said, instead accepting what man has said are fooled.  

God was not at all ambiguous about how and when He created things, He spoke them into being  (God said let their be light and there was light, an instantaneous occurrence is implied)  and He said He did it in six days. Now why would God want to lie and fool us that way? Seriously to accept evolution is to say God is a liar.

Also if evolution is true then Modern man has been around for 200,000 years. All the same intelligence, curiosity and creativity as us, but they did nothing impactful for 194,000 years.   The Egyptians burst on the scene in 3000 bc and with simple tools, master of fire and the simple knowledge that if you plant a seed it will grow, they built an EMPIRE.

Did it really take modern man 194,000 years to figure out how to plant seeds, use an incline plane and a lever and make fire?

And finally the 6000 years (which we can know was the beginning of Adam due to the genealogies) which Creation claims, is pretty much what History also declares, there is no real historic record of man prior to that.

 

So the Ability to accept that God is not tied by the rules we are bound by is all you need to see that the creation of God and the "apparent" age of the world, are not at odds

 

Is there a rule anywhere that says God has to create everything new?

Not have any problem with what you  are saying, but defining your heading question. What do you mean? KJV Genesis. you are saying the word new must mean the beginning of creation for we assume that not even the universe existed prior to the exact moment God spoke anything into existence. We say that this took place six thousand years ago. At what point do we mark or date do we start at to arrive at the true beginning . There is not  any exactness  mentioned in the scriptures. Someone mentioned Egypt was the first recording's of men. Is there any real date and time to arrive at the six thousand years.  

 

 

 

[Riverwalker]

2 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

Is there a rule anywhere that says God has to create everything new

Im not sure of how you want to define your question.  I can understand  what you say about 6000 years and the err

Is there a rule anywhere that says God has to create everything new?

Not have any problem with what you  are saying, but defining your heading question. What do you mean? KJV Genesis. you are saying the word new must mean the beginning of creation for we assume that not even the universe existed prior to the exact moment God spoke anything into existence. We say that this took place six thousand years ago. At what point do we mark or date do we start at to arrive at the true beginning . There is not  any exactness  mentioned in the scriptures. Someone mentioned Egypt was the first recording's of men. Is there any real date and time to arrive at the six thousand years.  

When Adam and Eve were created, they were created with an established age. as an adult.  We do not know what age they were created it, but for arguments sake lets say 30.  So while Adam and Eve were newly created, they had the age of a 30 year old.

Following that we go to the earth It was created aged, because a young planet would be very hostile to life. So while the earth was newly created it was given the age of 4.5 billion years or so. 

Like wise the wine Jesus made from the water, while it was newly created it was not new wine, but finely aged wine.

That is the concept of new I am attempting to show. Thanks for the question, it helps to clarify

 

As to the 6000 years that is derived from the very complete genealogy given in the bible, giving the ages of each Patriarch and how old they were when they gave birth , and how old their son was when they gave birth and this connects the dots between until we reach Moses and Joshua and the founding of Israel and beyond to times we can determine. 

[JohnR7]

On 1/10/2021 at 5:52 PM, Riverwalker said:

He said He did it in six days.

God finished His work on the sixth day. Science tells us we are stardust. Our elements were created in the furnace of a star up to 12 billion years ago. We are for the most part carbon. 

[Riverwalker]

8 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

God finished His work on the sixth day. Science tells us we are stardust. Our elements were created in the furnace of a star up to 12 billion years ago. We are for the most part carbon. 

Star dust?   Science tells us? None of that has any evidence it is mere conjecture 

Who do you believe science or God?

God very clearly said how He made us, so either God lied or God special made us

[missmuffet]

Get Your Own Dirt
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God.  So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.  The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you.  We’re to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don’t you just go on and mind your own business?”
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man.  After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well, how about this?  Let’s say we have a man-making contest.”  To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”
“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”
The scientist said, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God looked at him and said, “No, no, no.  You go get your own dirt.”