Are Fossils evidence of evolution ....or are the evidence of fossils

[Sparks]

49 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

There were two great floods on the Earth, 1. we shall call Lucifers flood brought upon the Earth because of lucifers rebellion, and 2. Noahs flood caused by the rebellion of man. Many Scriptures show there was a great difference between them, all we need do is read every one and believe what we read.

 

The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noahs flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.

There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).

Rev. 4:11).

In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26).

All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20).

Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood.

No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?

I can see you put a lot of effort into your post, but I am not arriving at the same conclusions you are, at all.  Sorry.  In fact, I still don't see how you are arrived at a pre-Adamite world.

By the way, Genesis was written by 10 different authors with the first being God Himself (dictated to Adam, of course).  Why wouldn't God just say in plain words that there was a pre-Adamite world that He destroyed, if there was one?  I notice, He didn't mention it.

Thanks for the post.

 

[HAZARD]

The destruction and overthrow of the world BEFORE Adam was created, a
world ruled by Lucifer and other angels, a social structure, but
one of angels beings on earth. This was also when the great
Dinosaurs and some great gigantic plants and flying creatures had
domain of the earth, on the physical side of that social
structure. This was all destroyed and the earth covered with
water, when Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled against
God and there was a cosmos battle - maybe a good part of the
universe had its "star wars." Then we have the RE-FORMING of the
earth and the creation of all that we read about in Genesis
chapter one.
The next HUGE event for this earth will be the coming of Jesus
in POWER and GLORY back to earth, and the WONDERFUL 1,000 year
reign, where so much will be RESTORED and changed all over the
earth.
The last huge event for the earth will be the burning
up of the surface of this earth and the creation of the New earth
and New heaven, and the coming of God the Father and the heavenly
Jerusalem, that we read about in the last two chapters of
Revelation.

PETER'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In 2 Pet.3:6-7 we have a definite statement that there was a
social world before Adam, which is called, "the world that then
was." The Greek word for world is 'kosmos,' meaning social
system.
This social order had to be before this one we now know, or it
could not be called "the social order that then was." That it was
one which existed before our social order since Adam, is clear
from the next statement about "the heavens and the earth, WHICH
ARE NOW." The two statements, "the world THAT THEN WAS" and "the
heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW" prove there were two
separate social systems on Earth. One was BEFORE the one WHICH IS
NOW, and the other, AFTER the one THAT THEN WAS.
If it can be definitely proved that "THE WORLD THAT THEN WAS"
refers to a social order on Earth before the present heavens and
the Earth WHICH ARE NOW, then it would be forever settled that
there were inhabitants before Adam. (Yes, inhabitants of the
Dinosaurs and spirit angels and creatures, with Lucifer as
their captain - Keith Hunt). We submit the following points to
prove that it refers to a social order on Earth before Adam:

1.  THAT IS WHAT 2 PET.3:6-7 SAYS. It could not be expressed
more clearly in human language than it is here, "By the word of
God the heavens WERE OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the
water and in the water. Whereby the world [social order] THAT
THEN WAS [of old, and BEFORE the heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE
NOW], being overflowed with water perished: But the heavens and
the earth, WHICH ARE NOW [AFTER the world THAT THEN WAS], by the
same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day
of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Why should one close his mind to such plain language? How could
one misunderstand such simple statements of two worlds - the one
THAT THEN WAS and the one THAT NOW IS?

2.  If "the world that then was" is the same as that between
Adam and the flood of Noah, then God made "the heavens and the
earth which are now" since the flood of Noah, but this the Bible
does not teach. There is no statement in any Scripture that the
heavens and the Earth which are now differ from what they were
between the times of Adam and Noah. On the contrary, we have a
clear record that in six days God made "the heavens and the earth
which are now," and there is no record anywhere of a change being
made in them by Noah's flood, so that they would have to be made
over again after the flood. What kind of change could a flood
make in the heavens and the Earth? No flood could change the
heavens, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. If a
change is to be made in the heavens, it must be by divine acts of
power other than by floods. At Noah's time no change was made
even in the Earth, much less in the heavens. All that happened
was that some men and animals on Earth were drowned. The Earth,
vegetation, etc., remained the same after the flood as before it.

3.  If "the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW" could be proved
to be the same as "the world THAT THEN WAS" merely because we do
not want to believe that there was a social order before Adam,
then on the same basis we could prove that the present heavens
and the Earth will be exactly the same as the future New Heavens
and the New Earth of 2 Pet.3:13. All we have to do to make them
the same is to have the mere desire to make them the same, and
say they are the same. If wonders can be accomplished this
easily, we could do many other super acts by the mere desire and
by human words. If mere belief in one case could change facts,
then it could in the other.

4.  There are three distinct and separate periods of the history
of the Earth according to 2 Pet.3:5-13: first, "the world
[social order] THAT THEN WAS" before the heavens and the Earth
WHICH ARE NOW (vv. 6-7); second, "the heavens and the earth
WHICH ARE NOW," which are after "the world THAT THEN WAS and
before the "new heavens and a new earth" that will be (vv.5-7,
13); third, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens
and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness," which are after
"the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW," which in turn was
after "the world THAT THEN WAS" (vv.5-7,13). Thus there were
and are to be THREE social systems: first, the one before Adam:
second, the one between Adam and the New Heavens and the New
Earth; third, the one in the New Heavens and the New Earth.


5.  Peter taught that there were two ends to two sinful careers
of the Earth: first, "the world THAT THEN WAS." There must have
been a sinful career of that social system, or it would not have
been destroyed by water to make room for the present one; second,
the end of the present sinful career of the Earth, for the
present heavens and the Earth "are kept in store, reserved unto
fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (2
Pet.3:7). If the destruction of the world THAT THEN WAS is the
same destruction by fire in the future; there could not have been
a social system which has already perished by water as stated
here. So the destruction by water in the past and the destruction
by fire in the future proves that two times the Earth has been
made perfect and inhabited, and that two times the Earth has had
sinful careers. The third time the Earth will be made perfect is
when the New Heavens and New Earth are made. There will be a
continued social system in them, for Peter added, "wherein
dwelleth righteousness."

6.  If we believe that the flood that destroyed the world THAT
THEN WAS is the same flood that partly destroyed the present
social system in Noah's day, we will have to believe several
false doctrines as follows:

(1) That man was created at the time of the original creation of
the heavens and the Earth in the dateless past instead of in the
six days of Gen.1, for scoffers referred to in 2 Pet. 3,
believed that there was no disruption of the world, since, they
say, "all things" continue the same since creation.
(2) That God created the heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW at
the time of the flood, for if the world THAT THEN WAS referred to
the people between Adam and Noah, then there would have had to be
a creation of the present heavens and the Earth in Noah's day to
make "the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW."
(3) That the first life on the earth was created about 6,000
years ago.
(4) That scoffers believed that man was created at the time of
the flood, for they say, "since the fathers fell asleep
[beginning of the race and death in the race] all things continue
as they were from the beginning of the creation" (2 Pet.3:4).
(5) That we are just as ignorant as the scoffers who think
that the heavens were created at the time the fathers began to
fall asleep (2 Pet.3:4-5 ).
(6) That the social system that was created in Adam's day was
totally destroyed by the flood of Noah, for all of it "perished"
by water (2 Pet. 3:6).
(7) That there is a difference between the social order on the
Earth between Adam and Noah and the one that has existed since
Noah. But there is no such difference, for Noah's family lived
both before and after the flood, and there was no difference
between them in the two periods.
(8) That Peter did not make it clear which flood he refers to,
the one in Gen.1:2 or the one in Gen.6-8. But always, without
exception, he makes it very clear when he refers to the flood of
Noah (1 Pet.3:20; 2 Pet.2:5). Since in 2 Pet.3:6 he states
that all the social system THAT THEN WAS perished by water, we
have to conclude that he is not speaking of the flood of Noah.
Surely scoffers would not be so ignorant as to believe that all
the social system perished in Noah's flood; else they themselves
would not be here to scoff unless God had made a new social order
in Noah's day.
(9) That scoffers were totally ignorant of Noah's flood, for they
were ignorant of the one that destroyed the social system THAT
THEN WAS. Peter makes it very clear that last day scoffers would
be willingly ignorant of that destruction (2 Pet.3:4-6). This
therefore could not refer to Noah's flood, for all scoffers know
of it. The Greek word for 'ignorant' in 2 Pet. 3:5 and 8 is
'lanthano,' translated elsewhere 'hid' and 'hidden' (Mark 7:24;
Luke 8:47; Acts 26:26) and 'unawares' (Heb.13:1). This proves
that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original social
system was hidden from them, while they all know about Noah's
flood. What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it
is the destruction of a social world before Adam? This is the
thing of which men are still ignorant, or we would not have to
take so much time and space to get men to realize this truth of
the Bible. Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant
of this truth, thus showing that it is a clear doctrine of
Scripture if men would decide to stop being ignorant of it. There
are many Scriptures that make such a doctrine clear; so "if any
man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed
it (1 Cor.14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days would be ignorant of
the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system on
the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth
since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be
purified again - the next time by fire; that the Lord is not
slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the Earth
to its third perfect state; and that God was as longsuffering to
all men, not willing that any should perish, but that all come
repentance.

That there was a great catastrophe that came upon the pre-Adamite
world is clear from many Scriptures as well as from facts of
geology, botany, and other sciences. Scientists assert that the
Earth went through JUST ONE great catastrophe; an unknown
period in the past; that animal remains show that they died in
great agony; and that some unexplainable something happened to
the Earth itself to cause it to be turned upside down. In the
Ferrar Fenton translation, Gen.1:2 reads, "the earth was
[became] unorganized and empty; and darkness covered its
convulsed surface; while the breath of God rocked the surface of
the waters." This shows the Earth went through a period of
convulsions, spasms, eruptions, earthquakes, and a great
cataclysm that destroyed all animal and vegetable life on Earth.
Accounts of the flood of Noah and the flood of Lucifer are so
dissimilar that we must believe there were two great floods on
the Earth. 

In Ps. 104:5-10 we have a vivid description of the
destruction of the social world before Adam and of the
restoration of the Earth out of that flood. First the flood is
described as having come upon the Earth after the foundations of
the Earth were laid, and the waters are described as standing
above the mountains. Then the passage tells how the flood was
taken off the Earth so it could be inhabited again.
The only other reference Peter makes to the pre-Adamite world is
in 1 Peter 1:20, and here he speaks of christ as being
foreordained BEFORE the foundation (overthrow or disruption) of
the world. This could never refer to the flood of Noah. Thus we
see that Peter taught that there was a social system before Adam
that was overflowed by water and perished.

CONTRAST BETWEEN THE FLOOD OF LUCIFER AND NOAH'S FLOOD

1. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2....)
a. Earth not made waste (Gen.8:11,12,22; Heb.11:7; 1 Pet.3:20)
2. Earth made empty (Gen.1:2....)
a. Not made empty (Gen.6:18-22; 8:16).
3. Earth made totally dark (Gen.1:2-5....)
a. Not made totally dark (gen.8:6-22).
4. No light from heaven (Gen.1:2....)
a. Light from heaven (Gen.8;6-22).
5. No day and night (Gen.1:2-5).
a. Day and night (Gen.8:1-22).
6. All vegetation destroyed (Gen.1:2; 2:5-6....)
a. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen.8:11,21; 9:3,20).
7. No continued abating of the waters of the earth (Gen.1:6-12).
a. Continual abating of the waters of the earth by evaporation
(Gen.8:1-14).
8. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen.1:10).
a. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen,8:1-14).
9. Supernatural work of taking waters off the earth (Gen.1:6-12;
Ps 104:7).
a. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth
(Gen.8:1-14).
10.No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen.1:6-12;
Ps.104:7).
a. No rebuke or miraculous work in taking waters off the earth
(Gen.8:1-14).
11.The waters on earth in Gen.1:2 hasten away when rebuked
(Gen.1:6-12; Ps.104:9).
a. The waters on the earth gradually receded in Gen.8:1-14.
12.God set bounds around the waters in Gen.6:1-12; Ps.104:9.
a. The bounds were already eternally set for waters in Gen.8:1-
14.
13.All fish were totally destroyed in the flood of Gen.1:2....
a. No fish were destroyed or created again after Noah's flood
(Gen.1:20-23; 6:18-22).
14.No fowls left on earth after (Gen.1:2....
a. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen.6:20; 8:7-17).
15.No animal left after (Gen.1:2; ...2 Peter 3:5-6).
a. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen.6:20; 8:17; 9:2-4,10-16).
16.No man(creatures - Keith Hunt) left on earth in Gen.1:2....2
Peter 3:5-6.
a. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen.6:18; 8:15-
22; 9:1-16; 1 Peter 3:20).
17.No social system left at all in Gen.1:2....2 Peter 3:5-6.
a. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen.8:15-22; 9:1-16;
1 Peter 3:20).
18.No ark made to save men in Gen.1:2;....2 Peter 3:5-6.
a. An ark was made to save and animals alive (Gen.6:8-8:22; 9:1-
16; Heb.11:7).
19.Cause: fall of Satan (Isa.14:12-14....Ezek.28:11-17; Luke
10:18).
a. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen.6:5-13); and fallen angels
...(Jude 6-7; 2 Peter 2:4).
20.Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen.1:3-
2:25; Isa.45:18; Eph.3:11).
a. Result: no new creations made for men and animals were not
destroyed (Gen.6:18-8:22; 9:1-16).


IX. PAUL'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In Eph.1:4; Heb.4:3; 9:26, we have Paul's references to the
overthrow of the world THAT THEN WAS before Adam. In this first
reference he teaches that even as far back as before the
foundation (Greek, 'katabole,' from 'katabollo,' to throw down,
overthrow, disrupt, or ruin) of the world ('kosmos,' social
order), God planned To restore the Earth and provide redemption
through Christ, should the new creation fail. According to this
plan of redemption outlined in Eph.1:1-14, we have revealed that
God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings, chosen us in
Christ to be holy, predestinated us to be adopted as children,
made us accepted in the beloved, redeemed and forgave us by the
blood of Christ, abounded toward us in all wisdom, made known to
us His will, gave us an inheritance, and sealed us unto the day
of redemption.

In the second reference (Heb.4:3) we have one of the strongest
statements in Scripture that the six days work of Gen.1:3-2:25
was "since the foundation [disruption] of the world." It plainly
states that God did His works and that they were finished since
the overthrow of the world. The works referred to could not be
the original creation of the heavens and the Earth of Gen.1:1,
but the six-days work Of Gen.1:3-2:25, for the passage says, "God
did rest the seventh day from his works" (Heb.4:3-4). If the
works in this passage mean the six-days work and not the original
creation of Gen.1:1, and if these works were "finished" since
the disruption of the world, then the passage proves that before
the six days there was a world or social order on the Earth to be
destroyed.

In the third passage (Heb.9:26) we have the fact that Christ did
not suffer many Times "since the foundation [disruption] of the
world" or social system that lived before this disruption, but
that He suffered only once "in the end of the world ages," to
put away the sin of the second social order on Earth. That is,
Christ Came to redeem the present earth-rebels, who were created
since the overthrow of the first earth-rebels. (Which were angel
beings and Lucifer - Keith Hunt).

JOHN'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In Rev.13:8; 17:8 we have statements that the book of life was
prepared "since the foundation [disruption] of the world." There
would have been no need of the book of life for the present
earth-rebels until they rebelled. Now, since the fall, anyone who
conforms to the processes of redemption has his name written in
it (Ex.32:32-33; Ps.69:28; Dan.12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil.4:3; Rev.
3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:11-15; 21:27; 22:19).
Rev.13:8; 17:8 do not teach that the names of men are written in
the book BEFORE they are saved, as some teach, but that a book of
life was prepared as far back as "since the overthrow of the
world" that lived before Adam. Each person has his name written
in the book of life when he is born again (begotten again - Keith
Hunt)of the Word of God and the Spirit of God, and goes through
the process of adoption (actually 'sonship' - way more than
adoption - Keith Hunt) as a child into the family of God. Names
can be blotted out of the book according to Ex.32:32-33; Ps.69:
5-28; Rev.3:5. So don't let any man be deceived into thinking
that this is impossible.

You can see for yourself what these passages say. If they do not
mean what they say, then they are false; but if they mean what
they say, then they are true; so believe them rather than any
man.

If the book of life was prepared "since the overthrow of the
world," and if it has been in existence all the time since Adam's
creation, there must have been a social world that lived holy for
a time, and then rebelled and was overthrown, before this present
human social system. 

[Guest kingdombrat]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

The destruction and overthrow of the world BEFORE Adam was created, a
world ruled by Lucifer and other angels, a social structure, but
one of angels beings on earth. This was also when the great
Dinosaurs and some great gigantic plants and flying creatures had
domain of the earth, on the physical side of that social
structure. This was all destroyed and the earth covered with
water, when Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled against
God and there was a cosmos battle - maybe a good part of the
universe had its "star wars." Then we have the RE-FORMING of the
earth and the creation of all that we read about in Genesis
chapter one.
The next HUGE event for this earth will be the coming of Jesus
in POWER and GLORY back to earth, and the WONDERFUL 1,000 year
reign, where so much will be RESTORED and changed all over the
earth.
The last huge event for the earth will be the burning
up of the surface of this earth and the creation of the New earth
and New heaven, and the coming of God the Father and the heavenly
Jerusalem, that we read about in the last two chapters of
Revelation.

PETER'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In 2 Pet.3:6-7 we have a definite statement that there was a
social world before Adam, which is called, "the world that then
was." The Greek word for world is 'kosmos,' meaning social
system.
This social order had to be before this one we now know, or it
could not be called "the social order that then was." That it was
one which existed before our social order since Adam, is clear
from the next statement about "the heavens and the earth, WHICH
ARE NOW." The two statements, "the world THAT THEN WAS" and "the
heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW" prove there were two
separate social systems on Earth. One was BEFORE the one WHICH IS
NOW, and the other, AFTER the one THAT THEN WAS.
If it can be definitely proved that "THE WORLD THAT THEN WAS"
refers to a social order on Earth before the present heavens and
the Earth WHICH ARE NOW, then it would be forever settled that
there were inhabitants before Adam. (Yes, inhabitants of the
Dinosaurs and spirit angels and creatures, with Lucifer as
their captain - Keith Hunt). We submit the following points to
prove that it refers to a social order on Earth before Adam:

1.  THAT IS WHAT 2 PET.3:6-7 SAYS. It could not be expressed
more clearly in human language than it is here, "By the word of
God the heavens WERE OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the
water and in the water. Whereby the world [social order] THAT
THEN WAS [of old, and BEFORE the heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE
NOW], being overflowed with water perished: But the heavens and
the earth, WHICH ARE NOW [AFTER the world THAT THEN WAS], by the
same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day
of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Why should one close his mind to such plain language? How could
one misunderstand such simple statements of two worlds - the one
THAT THEN WAS and the one THAT NOW IS?

2.  If "the world that then was" is the same as that between
Adam and the flood of Noah, then God made "the heavens and the
earth which are now" since the flood of Noah, but this the Bible
does not teach. There is no statement in any Scripture that the
heavens and the Earth which are now differ from what they were
between the times of Adam and Noah. On the contrary, we have a
clear record that in six days God made "the heavens and the earth
which are now," and there is no record anywhere of a change being
made in them by Noah's flood, so that they would have to be made
over again after the flood. What kind of change could a flood
make in the heavens and the Earth? No flood could change the
heavens, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. If a
change is to be made in the heavens, it must be by divine acts of
power other than by floods. At Noah's time no change was made
even in the Earth, much less in the heavens. All that happened
was that some men and animals on Earth were drowned. The Earth,
vegetation, etc., remained the same after the flood as before it.

3.  If "the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW" could be proved
to be the same as "the world THAT THEN WAS" merely because we do
not want to believe that there was a social order before Adam,
then on the same basis we could prove that the present heavens
and the Earth will be exactly the same as the future New Heavens
and the New Earth of 2 Pet.3:13. All we have to do to make them
the same is to have the mere desire to make them the same, and
say they are the same. If wonders can be accomplished this
easily, we could do many other super acts by the mere desire and
by human words. If mere belief in one case could change facts,
then it could in the other.

4.  There are three distinct and separate periods of the history
of the Earth according to 2 Pet.3:5-13: first, "the world
[social order] THAT THEN WAS" before the heavens and the Earth
WHICH ARE NOW (vv. 6-7); second, "the heavens and the earth
WHICH ARE NOW," which are after "the world THAT THEN WAS and
before the "new heavens and a new earth" that will be (vv.5-7,
13); third, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens
and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness," which are after
"the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW," which in turn was
after "the world THAT THEN WAS" (vv.5-7,13). Thus there were
and are to be THREE social systems: first, the one before Adam:
second, the one between Adam and the New Heavens and the New
Earth; third, the one in the New Heavens and the New Earth.


5.  Peter taught that there were two ends to two sinful careers
of the Earth: first, "the world THAT THEN WAS." There must have
been a sinful career of that social system, or it would not have
been destroyed by water to make room for the present one; second,
the end of the present sinful career of the Earth, for the
present heavens and the Earth "are kept in store, reserved unto
fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (2
Pet.3:7). If the destruction of the world THAT THEN WAS is the
same destruction by fire in the future; there could not have been
a social system which has already perished by water as stated
here. So the destruction by water in the past and the destruction
by fire in the future proves that two times the Earth has been
made perfect and inhabited, and that two times the Earth has had
sinful careers. The third time the Earth will be made perfect is
when the New Heavens and New Earth are made. There will be a
continued social system in them, for Peter added, "wherein
dwelleth righteousness."

6.  If we believe that the flood that destroyed the world THAT
THEN WAS is the same flood that partly destroyed the present
social system in Noah's day, we will have to believe several
false doctrines as follows:

(1) That man was created at the time of the original creation of
the heavens and the Earth in the dateless past instead of in the
six days of Gen.1, for scoffers referred to in 2 Pet. 3,
believed that there was no disruption of the world, since, they
say, "all things" continue the same since creation.
(2) That God created the heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW at
the time of the flood, for if the world THAT THEN WAS referred to
the people between Adam and Noah, then there would have had to be
a creation of the present heavens and the Earth in Noah's day to
make "the heavens and the earth WHICH ARE NOW."
(3) That the first life on the earth was created about 6,000
years ago.
(4) That scoffers believed that man was created at the time of
the flood, for they say, "since the fathers fell asleep
[beginning of the race and death in the race] all things continue
as they were from the beginning of the creation" (2 Pet.3:4).
(5) That we are just as ignorant as the scoffers who think
that the heavens were created at the time the fathers began to
fall asleep (2 Pet.3:4-5 ).
(6) That the social system that was created in Adam's day was
totally destroyed by the flood of Noah, for all of it "perished"
by water (2 Pet. 3:6).
(7) That there is a difference between the social order on the
Earth between Adam and Noah and the one that has existed since
Noah. But there is no such difference, for Noah's family lived
both before and after the flood, and there was no difference
between them in the two periods.
(8) That Peter did not make it clear which flood he refers to,
the one in Gen.1:2 or the one in Gen.6-8. But always, without
exception, he makes it very clear when he refers to the flood of
Noah (1 Pet.3:20; 2 Pet.2:5). Since in 2 Pet.3:6 he states
that all the social system THAT THEN WAS perished by water, we
have to conclude that he is not speaking of the flood of Noah.
Surely scoffers would not be so ignorant as to believe that all
the social system perished in Noah's flood; else they themselves
would not be here to scoff unless God had made a new social order
in Noah's day.
(9) That scoffers were totally ignorant of Noah's flood, for they
were ignorant of the one that destroyed the social system THAT
THEN WAS. Peter makes it very clear that last day scoffers would
be willingly ignorant of that destruction (2 Pet.3:4-6). This
therefore could not refer to Noah's flood, for all scoffers know
of it. The Greek word for 'ignorant' in 2 Pet. 3:5 and 8 is
'lanthano,' translated elsewhere 'hid' and 'hidden' (Mark 7:24;
Luke 8:47; Acts 26:26) and 'unawares' (Heb.13:1). This proves
that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original social
system was hidden from them, while they all know about Noah's
flood. What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it
is the destruction of a social world before Adam? This is the
thing of which men are still ignorant, or we would not have to
take so much time and space to get men to realize this truth of
the Bible. Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant
of this truth, thus showing that it is a clear doctrine of
Scripture if men would decide to stop being ignorant of it. There
are many Scriptures that make such a doctrine clear; so "if any
man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed
it (1 Cor.14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days would be ignorant of
the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system on
the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth
since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be
purified again - the next time by fire; that the Lord is not
slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the Earth
to its third perfect state; and that God was as longsuffering to
all men, not willing that any should perish, but that all come
repentance.

That there was a great catastrophe that came upon the pre-Adamite
world is clear from many Scriptures as well as from facts of
geology, botany, and other sciences. Scientists assert that the
Earth went through JUST ONE great catastrophe; an unknown
period in the past; that animal remains show that they died in
great agony; and that some unexplainable something happened to
the Earth itself to cause it to be turned upside down. In the
Ferrar Fenton translation, Gen.1:2 reads, "the earth was
[became] unorganized and empty; and darkness covered its
convulsed surface; while the breath of God rocked the surface of
the waters." This shows the Earth went through a period of
convulsions, spasms, eruptions, earthquakes, and a great
cataclysm that destroyed all animal and vegetable life on Earth.
Accounts of the flood of Noah and the flood of Lucifer are so
dissimilar that we must believe there were two great floods on
the Earth. 

In Ps. 104:5-10 we have a vivid description of the
destruction of the social world before Adam and of the
restoration of the Earth out of that flood. First the flood is
described as having come upon the Earth after the foundations of
the Earth were laid, and the waters are described as standing
above the mountains. Then the passage tells how the flood was
taken off the Earth so it could be inhabited again.
The only other reference Peter makes to the pre-Adamite world is
in 1 Peter 1:20, and here he speaks of christ as being
foreordained BEFORE the foundation (overthrow or disruption) of
the world. This could never refer to the flood of Noah. Thus we
see that Peter taught that there was a social system before Adam
that was overflowed by water and perished.

CONTRAST BETWEEN THE FLOOD OF LUCIFER AND NOAH'S FLOOD

1. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2....)
a. Earth not made waste (Gen.8:11,12,22; Heb.11:7; 1 Pet.3:20)
2. Earth made empty (Gen.1:2....)
a. Not made empty (Gen.6:18-22; 8:16).
3. Earth made totally dark (Gen.1:2-5....)
a. Not made totally dark (gen.8:6-22).
4. No light from heaven (Gen.1:2....)
a. Light from heaven (Gen.8;6-22).
5. No day and night (Gen.1:2-5).
a. Day and night (Gen.8:1-22).
6. All vegetation destroyed (Gen.1:2; 2:5-6....)
a. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen.8:11,21; 9:3,20).
7. No continued abating of the waters of the earth (Gen.1:6-12).
a. Continual abating of the waters of the earth by evaporation
(Gen.8:1-14).
8. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen.1:10).
a. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen,8:1-14).
9. Supernatural work of taking waters off the earth (Gen.1:6-12;
Ps 104:7).
a. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth
(Gen.8:1-14).
10.No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen.1:6-12;
Ps.104:7).
a. No rebuke or miraculous work in taking waters off the earth
(Gen.8:1-14).
11.The waters on earth in Gen.1:2 hasten away when rebuked
(Gen.1:6-12; Ps.104:9).
a. The waters on the earth gradually receded in Gen.8:1-14.
12.God set bounds around the waters in Gen.6:1-12; Ps.104:9.
a. The bounds were already eternally set for waters in Gen.8:1-
14.
13.All fish were totally destroyed in the flood of Gen.1:2....
a. No fish were destroyed or created again after Noah's flood
(Gen.1:20-23; 6:18-22).
14.No fowls left on earth after (Gen.1:2....
a. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen.6:20; 8:7-17).
15.No animal left after (Gen.1:2; ...2 Peter 3:5-6).
a. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen.6:20; 8:17; 9:2-4,10-16).
16.No man(creatures - Keith Hunt) left on earth in Gen.1:2....2
Peter 3:5-6.
a. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen.6:18; 8:15-
22; 9:1-16; 1 Peter 3:20).
17.No social system left at all in Gen.1:2....2 Peter 3:5-6.
a. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen.8:15-22; 9:1-16;
1 Peter 3:20).
18.No ark made to save men in Gen.1:2;....2 Peter 3:5-6.
a. An ark was made to save and animals alive (Gen.6:8-8:22; 9:1-
16; Heb.11:7).
19.Cause: fall of Satan (Isa.14:12-14....Ezek.28:11-17; Luke
10:18).
a. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen.6:5-13); and fallen angels
...(Jude 6-7; 2 Peter 2:4).
20.Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen.1:3-
2:25; Isa.45:18; Eph.3:11).
a. Result: no new creations made for men and animals were not
destroyed (Gen.6:18-8:22; 9:1-16).


IX. PAUL'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In Eph.1:4; Heb.4:3; 9:26, we have Paul's references to the
overthrow of the world THAT THEN WAS before Adam. In this first
reference he teaches that even as far back as before the
foundation (Greek, 'katabole,' from 'katabollo,' to throw down,
overthrow, disrupt, or ruin) of the world ('kosmos,' social
order), God planned To restore the Earth and provide redemption
through Christ, should the new creation fail. According to this
plan of redemption outlined in Eph.1:1-14, we have revealed that
God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings, chosen us in
Christ to be holy, predestinated us to be adopted as children,
made us accepted in the beloved, redeemed and forgave us by the
blood of Christ, abounded toward us in all wisdom, made known to
us His will, gave us an inheritance, and sealed us unto the day
of redemption.

In the second reference (Heb.4:3) we have one of the strongest
statements in Scripture that the six days work of Gen.1:3-2:25
was "since the foundation [disruption] of the world." It plainly
states that God did His works and that they were finished since
the overthrow of the world. The works referred to could not be
the original creation of the heavens and the Earth of Gen.1:1,
but the six-days work Of Gen.1:3-2:25, for the passage says, "God
did rest the seventh day from his works" (Heb.4:3-4). If the
works in this passage mean the six-days work and not the original
creation of Gen.1:1, and if these works were "finished" since
the disruption of the world, then the passage proves that before
the six days there was a world or social order on the Earth to be
destroyed.

In the third passage (Heb.9:26) we have the fact that Christ did
not suffer many Times "since the foundation [disruption] of the
world" or social system that lived before this disruption, but
that He suffered only once "in the end of the world ages," to
put away the sin of the second social order on Earth. That is,
Christ Came to redeem the present earth-rebels, who were created
since the overthrow of the first earth-rebels. (Which were angel
beings and Lucifer - Keith Hunt).

JOHN'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD

In Rev.13:8; 17:8 we have statements that the book of life was
prepared "since the foundation [disruption] of the world." There
would have been no need of the book of life for the present
earth-rebels until they rebelled. Now, since the fall, anyone who
conforms to the processes of redemption has his name written in
it (Ex.32:32-33; Ps.69:28; Dan.12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil.4:3; Rev.
3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:11-15; 21:27; 22:19).
Rev.13:8; 17:8 do not teach that the names of men are written in
the book BEFORE they are saved, as some teach, but that a book of
life was prepared as far back as "since the overthrow of the
world" that lived before Adam. Each person has his name written
in the book of life when he is born again (begotten again - Keith
Hunt)of the Word of God and the Spirit of God, and goes through
the process of adoption (actually 'sonship' - way more than
adoption - Keith Hunt) as a child into the family of God. Names
can be blotted out of the book according to Ex.32:32-33; Ps.69:
5-28; Rev.3:5. So don't let any man be deceived into thinking
that this is impossible.

You can see for yourself what these passages say. If they do not
mean what they say, then they are false; but if they mean what
they say, then they are true; so believe them rather than any
man.

If the book of life was prepared "since the overthrow of the
world," and if it has been in existence all the time since Adam's
creation, there must have been a social world that lived holy for
a time, and then rebelled and was overthrown, before this present
human social system. 

And normally, one also adds Jeremiah 4 to what you've ^ exposed.

[HAZARD]

5 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

And normally, one also adds Jeremiah 4 to what you've ^ exposed.

Pre-Adamite Eden, Ezek. 28: 12-13;
No earthly king of Tyre was ever in Eden. as was this angel, nor does this Eden refer to Adams Eden although Lucifer was in it also (Gen. 3:2; 2 Cor 11:3).
The Eden here was a garden in the earth when he ruled in perfection and sinlessness before he fell (v. 13).

[teddyv]

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

By the way, Genesis was written by 10 different authors with the first being God Himself (dictated to Adam, of course). 

Can you point me to reference for this? I don't think I've ever quite seen it stated as such.

[Duck]

according to reports in Bigelow News and ScienceDaily 8 April 2021, Science Alert 9 April 2021, and The ISME Journal, 6 April 2021; doi: 10.1038/s41396-021-00965-3.
 
Originally found deep in a South African mine, a bacterium named Candidatus Desulforudis audaxviator was found to survive on a diet of chemicals produced from radioactivity deep in the earth. Since then the bacteria have also been found deep underground in California and Siberia where the chemical environments are each very different. Scientists thought they had “a unique opportunity to look for differences that have emerged between the populations over their millions of years of evolution”.However, when scientists from the Bigelow Laboratory for Ocean Sciences studied 126 samples from the three different and widely separated sites, they found the separate genomes were almost identical.
 
According to Ramunas Stepanauskas, who led the study, “It was shocking. They had the same makeup, and so we started scratching our heads”.Stepanauskas went on to explain: “The best explanation we have at the moment is that these microbes did not change much since their physical locations separated during the breakup of supercontinent Pangaea, about 175 million years ago. They appear to be living fossils from those days”. The scientists suggest the microbes have remained unchanged because of accurate copying of their DNA which has maintained them in a state of “evolutionary stasis”.
 
These unusual microbes were originally discovered in 2005 and later studied by an international team of scientists, including scientists from NASA Astrobiology Institute. A NASA news article made the following comments about the microbes: “Genomic analyses have revealed that the organism’s genes code for everything needed to sustain an independent existence and reproduce, including the ability to fix its own nitrogen, move freely, sense its environment, protect itself from viruses, and even sporulate during nutrient-poor periods”. (NASA News 10 October 2008) Sporulate means to form spores.
Links: Bigelow, NASA, Science Alert, ScienceDaily
 
ED. COM. Unlike the research team above, we are neither shocked nor scratching our heads. This new study combined with the results of the 2008 study is evidence that since its first recorded appearance on planet earth this microbe has existed in a fully functional state which has provably not changed from then till now – exactly like all living fossils. Secondly, despite their evolutionist prejudice, even the NASA article admits the bacterium is well designed to live where it was found. Ipso Facto, this is exactly what you’d expect to result from Genesis 1-2 being true. They were created to work well and to reproduce copies of themselves without evolving. On that basis we predict that if their fossils are found in claimed older rocks they will still be the same unevolved and unevolving bugs.
 
P.S. 1 Note that the researchers who did this present study used the term “living fossil” but they did not find any fossilised bacteria.
 
P.S. 2 Don’t miss the fact that the term “evolutionary stasis” is evolutionist code for saying a living organism has not evolved.
 

[Sparks]

7 hours ago, teddyv said:

Can you point me to reference for this? I don't think I've ever quite seen it stated as such.

When you read the book of Genesis, each generation is listed by who wrote them.  They each have entirely different styles of writing, because there were different authors. 

The first is God, since no human was around.  He either wrote it and gave it to Adam or gave it to him by revelation.  Then Adam, himself.  Then Noah, and so on.

Genesis 2:5 (KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 5:1 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Genesis 6:9 (KJV) These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

Follow your nose.

[Guest kingdombrat]

15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Pre-Adamite Eden, Ezek. 28: 12-13;
No earthly king of Tyre was ever in Eden. as was this angel, nor does this Eden refer to Adams Eden although Lucifer was in it also (Gen. 3:2; 2 Cor 11:3).
The Eden here was a garden in the earth when he ruled in perfection and sinlessness before he fell (v. 13).

Essentially, what you're [claiming here], is from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2 we have a "space within time" where the {created peoples} whose [Mediator] between them and God is the Morning Star [before the Adversary becomes Satan].   But when the Morning Star rebels against God (+) the Morning Star also causes the [Pre-Adamite Peoples] to accept the Morning Star as God, God's Wrath result is what we read in Jeremiah 4 and it ultimately leads us to Genesis 1:2 and [NOW] we have a lineage going from man to Messiah.

 

What's interesting here, {we know God is All Knowing/First and Last/so He knows the Ending from the Beginning}, but let's entertain there were Pre-Adamite Peoples for a moment.   Is this why when Adam is created it also is a lineage origin to the Coming Messiah?   God watched the first people reject God like People since Adam have been doing, so God during the 6 Day Creation of Eden/Adam/[[TREE of LIFE]] also Created the path by lineage to the Coming Messiah 4,000+ years later??

 

Just trying to pick your brain here for a moment is all 

Edited April 14, 2021 by kingdombrat

[teddyv]

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

When you read the book of Genesis, each generation is listed by who wrote them.  They each have entirely different styles of writing, because there were different authors. 

The first is God, since no human was around.  He either wrote it and gave it to Adam or gave it to him by revelation.  Then Adam, himself.  Then Noah, and so on.

Genesis 2:5 (KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 5:1 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Genesis 6:9 (KJV) These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

Follow your nose.

There is no indication in Genesis that this was how it was authored - that seems an assumption on your part. Other than some of the NT letters, there are no unequivocal attributions of authorship of most books.

For Genesis, I'd personally lean toward oral stories being collated and penned, probably after the exodus of Israel from Egypt. A 'new' nation needed an identity after so many years in Egyptian bondage and identities are usually rooted in history. I'm aware this is also an assumption on my part.

 

ETA: this is certainly well off-topic.

Edited April 14, 2021 by teddyv
added thought

[Guest kingdombrat]

26 minutes ago, teddyv said:

There is no indication in Genesis that this was how it was authored - that seems an assumption on your part. Other than some of the NT letters, there are no unequivocal attributions of authorship of most books.

For Genesis, I'd personally lean toward oral stories being collated and penned, probably after the exodus of Israel from Egypt. A 'new' nation needed an identity after so many years in Egyptian bondage and identities are usually rooted in history. I'm aware this is also an assumption on my part.

 

ETA: this is certainly well off-topic.

Ironic enough, within our very own Bible in the Book(s) of Joshua + I/II Kings/Chronicles and Psalms (reference only) reveals a Book Believers in God used in the same time frame as Joshua and before/after David was King David called Jasher.   This Book which Joshua, the Leader after Moses, and David and the Hebrew Peoples were using/reading/studying/following like we do in our own BIBLE, also includes another view of Creation and Eden.   It's still the SAME PICTURE and Chronological Order, but it has interesting tidbits that paint a [Fuller View].

 

So clearly, the Book of Jasher is out when Moses writes Job, the Pentateuch and both Books {Pentateuch and Jasher} parallel one another but there are different views between them that are interesting views.   I think reading Jasher would help you see the Genesis Account from Moses clearer.

Edited April 14, 2021 by kingdombrat